HAL developing new varaint LCA-1P

pmaitra

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I guess media is under estimating LCA by comparing all metal airframe JF-17 all the time which make pakis more excited rather than us , Infact the challenge should be against J-10 , Gripen or F-16
That is a reasonable comparison. I would keep the comparison restricted to the interceptor role though.

One point made by Rajat Pandit that is strongly disagree with is about close air-to-ground support, or CAS. This is a very uninformed comment. The shape of the LCA makes it obvious that it is a high altitude interceptor, and yes, might as well work as a strike aircraft (attacking land targets from high altitude), but this is not a CAS (attacking ground targets from low altitude). We have to remember that the LCA is slated to replace the MiG-21. Now, MiG-21 is also a high altitude interceptor, and not a CAS airplane. Flying MiG-21 at low altitude itself is dangerous, and using it for CAS is asking for a crash. I think with LCA it might be just slightly less riskier.
 

Jagdish58

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That is a reasonable comparison. I would keep the comparison restricted to the interceptor role though.

One point made by Rajat Pandit that is strongly disagree with is about close air-to-ground support, or CAS. This is a very uninformed comment. The shape of the LCA make it obvious that it is a high altitude interceptor, and yes, might as well work as a strike aircraft (attacking land targets from high altitude), but this is not a CAS (attacking ground targets from low altitude). We have to remember that the LCA is slated to replace the MiG-21. Now, MiG-21 is also a high altitude interceptor, and not a CAS airplane. Flying MiG-21 at low altitude itself is dangerous, and using it for CAS is asking for a crash. I think with LCA it might be just slightly less riskier.
Guess LCA can perform strike role just like Mirage-2000 did in Kargil but with payload limitation

There should be a dedicated strike variant of LCA derivative of Trainer , since we are talking about arming Hawk Tejas will be better option
 

Jagdish58

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Tejas Grounded after Snag in Landing Gear

For almost 3,000 hours of flying, the made-in-India combat aircraft “Tejas” was a pilot’s delight, but within months of joining the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s fleet, these jets have been grounded because of nagging problems with their landing gear.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/10/tejas-grounded-after-snag-in-landing.html


IS THIS TRUE OR PRESTITUTES TRYING TO SABOTAGE THE MK1 INDUCTION?"?
 

tejas warrior

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That is a reasonable comparison. I would keep the comparison restricted to the interceptor role though.

One point made by Rajat Pandit that is strongly disagree with is about close air-to-ground support, or CAS. This is a very uninformed comment. The shape of the LCA make it obvious that it is a high altitude interceptor, and yes, might as well work as a strike aircraft (attacking land targets from high altitude), but this is not a CAS (attacking ground targets from low altitude). We have to remember that the LCA is slated to replace the MiG-21. Now, MiG-21 is also a high altitude interceptor, and not a CAS airplane. Flying MiG-21 at low altitude itself is dangerous, and using it for CAS is asking for a crash. I think with LCA it might be just slightly less riskier.
Rajat Pandit is Idiot & Dalal's puppet. He knows nothing, dont waste your time in reading him.
 

Kharavela

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That is a reasonable comparison. I would keep the comparison restricted to the interceptor role though.

One point made by Rajat Pandit that is strongly disagree with is about close air-to-ground support, or CAS. This is a very uninformed comment. The shape of the LCA make it obvious that it is a high altitude interceptor, and yes, might as well work as a strike aircraft (attacking land targets from high altitude), but this is not a CAS (attacking ground targets from low altitude). We have to remember that the LCA is slated to replace the MiG-21. Now, MiG-21 is also a high altitude interceptor, and not a CAS airplane. Flying MiG-21 at low altitude itself is dangerous, and using it for CAS is asking for a crash. I think with LCA it might be just slightly less riskier.
Can't the HF-24 Marut fitted with Kaveri engine be fit for CAS role ?
It was an excellent platform, was capable of Ground Attack having tolerance for ground firing. Only problem of Marut was a suitable engine. Being a subsonic fighter-bomber, Marut might become hell of an aircraft for Close Air Support.

The best part is: It would be a complete indigenous aircraft.

Your opinions please @pmaitra @ersakthivel @Yumdoot @Yusuf @rohit b3 @jackprince @Mad Indian @tejas warrior @rock127 @Shaitan @bengalraider @Blackwater @Sakal Gharelu Ustad
 

Mad Indian

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Can't the HF-24 Marut fitted with Kaveri engine be fit for CAS role ?
It was an excellent platform, was capable of Ground Attack having tolerance for ground firing. Only problem of Marut was a suitable engine. Being a subsonic fighter-bomber, Marut might become hell of an aircraft for Close Air Support.

The best part is: It would be a complete indigenous aircraft.

Your opinions please @pmaitra @ersakthivel @Yumdoot @Yusuf @rohit b3 @jackprince @Mad Indian @tejas warrior @rock127 @Shaitan @bengalraider @Blackwater @Sakal Gharelu Ustad
Dude, I know nothing on technical aspects of the defence matters. I only read about them here and there and learn. So I have no opinions on these issues other than the ones involving the economics part of it.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

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Can't the HF-24 Marut fitted with Kaveri engine be fit for CAS role ?
It was an excellent platform, was capable of Ground Attack having tolerance for ground firing. Only problem of Marut was a suitable engine. Being a subsonic fighter-bomber, Marut might become hell of an aircraft for Close Air Support.

The best part is: It would be a complete indigenous aircraft.

Your opinions please @pmaitra @ersakthivel @Yumdoot @Yusuf @rohit b3 @jackprince @Mad Indian @tejas warrior @rock127 @Shaitan @bengalraider @Blackwater @Sakal Gharelu Ustad
I don't think IA has any dedicated CAS aircrafts. Also, it would be interesting to know how F-35 vs A-10 plays out in US. If F-35 cannot beat A-10 in the near future test, then probably there would still be role for CAS fighters and they won't retire after 5th gen fighters comes in.

I personally think there is role for subsonic fighters for CAS because of the cheap solution it provides. But whether Marut can fit that role, I am not sure. It is too old to dig out of the grave.
 

Varahamihira

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Pardon my ignorance.
If we have to compare LCA with J-10,Gripen or F16 where would it stand.

Let say J-10,Gripen or F16 each have 100 points.
How much points would you give to LCA MK1,LCA MK 1A/1P and LCA MK II.
 

jackprince

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I don't think IA has any dedicated CAS aircrafts. Also, it would be interesting to know how F-35 vs A-10 plays out in US. If F-35 cannot beat A-10 in the near future test, then probably there would still be role for CAS fighters and they won't retire after 5th gen fighters comes in.

I personally think there is role for subsonic fighters for CAS because of the cheap solution it provides. But whether Marut can fit that role, I am not sure. It is too old to dig out of the grave.
Mig-27 with its variable geometry wings set up fits the CAS role pretty well.
Can't the HF-24 Marut fitted with Kaveri engine be fit for CAS role ?
It was an excellent platform, was capable of Ground Attack having tolerance for ground firing. Only problem of Marut was a suitable engine. Being a subsonic fighter-bomber, Marut might become hell of an aircraft for Close Air Support.

The best part is: It would be a complete indigenous aircraft.
Marut is dead. There's no point in start from scratch working on a so old design. The required time frame for improving the design upto the modern standard, investment for prototype development - both monetary and manpower is not worth it when ultimately IAF will reject it anyway. Also, CAS roles can be supplanted by regular multirole platforms by using dumb-bombs with smart guidance systems, which will alleviate risk for the delivery platform and can be very precise too. And, if one absolutely needs some CAS platforms, rather than funding development costs in time, money and manpower, when HAL is already starved of all those, buying from foreign suppliers a proven platform is more feasible since these are the platforms IAF will not need in a huge no. to worth the investment. The way AD systems are developing, the survivality of CAS fighters will be hard won.
 

Yumdoot

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Marut was an aerodynamically sweet and the machine was somewhat survivable for its day (can't say about the cockpit). Probably somebody may be able to jam a Kaveri into a Marut but that will most probably destroy its aerodynamics and then the people trying it will have to change a lot more than just the engines. In any case the world has moved on even in terms of CAS. Not worth the trouble, I guess.

In any case LCA is good enough for most of the CAS, as it is likely to be executed in future. See we have to get out of this desire to visualize an A-10 or a Su-25 whenever we think of CAS. These two aircrafts were very well built for the purpose but even these machines had to adapt to the threat environment and the advancements in the sensors. Within Afghanistan itself saw some of the Su-25 bombing run tactics change, which ultimately had them start out at almost the top of their ceilings and use dumb bombs with sights only. And for a fairly acceptable effect. Su-25 also delivered LGBs from varying ranges, again to good effect.

My idea of a CAS today is to make the thing in a way that the pilot gets some distance more before he has to eject, if he is hit. Because that hit is a forgone conclusion. Between a dual-color sensor and IR counter measures the balance of capability tilts towards the dual-color sensors. And its only going to be more and more difficult. Now whether you achieve this survivability by modifying the cockpit &/or the engine placements &/or armour, is a matter for engineers & ASQ writers, to decide.

When we think of CAS we immediately refer back in our minds to the youtube videos. But they are not a representative way of how we should be approaching the issue today and in future. Here this is what Sqd. Ldr. Ajay Ahuja said before he bailed out : Ahuja gave a radio call – "Hercules, something has hit my plane, possibility of missile hit cannot be ruled out, I am ejecting over...(location)."

Notice he had time only for that much and notice also the follow on results. Would you send your pilots into a like situation? Because that is exactly how much time a CAS pilot will have in his hands if the CAS mission goes haywire.

Today you want to run a CAS in an uncertain situation in a new battlefield, you can still rely on a lot of sensors to lead you to the launch point and do the final kill for you - between modern versions of GPS+INS, Terrain following radars, targeting pods and good availability of LOROP there is very little that the ground soldier would find as a big surprise in his fight, demanding risky CAS missions. The larger number of smaller surprises that the ground forces will find today will be missed out even in after a successful CAS.

In any case our Jags and Mig-27s are going to be around till we get the LCA to do like missions with similar survivability capabilities.
 

Jagdish58

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Can't the HF-24 Marut fitted with Kaveri engine be fit for CAS role ?
It was an excellent platform, was capable of Ground Attack having tolerance for ground firing. Only problem of Marut was a suitable engine. Being a subsonic fighter-bomber, Marut might become hell of an aircraft for Close Air Support.

The best part is: It would be a complete indigenous aircraft.

Your opinions please @pmaitra @ersakthivel @Yumdoot @Yusuf @rohit b3 @jackprince @Mad Indian @tejas warrior @rock127 @Shaitan @bengalraider @Blackwater @Sakal Gharelu Ustad
Mate if you go through this thread , you will get to know we lost opportunity on HF-24 & it's follow on
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/hal-lost-opportunity.62653/
, they can't be revived now Mig-27 & Jaguar can do CAS role effectively as many distinguish members have suggested but still doubt their ability in high altitude like Kargil reason why Mirage-2000 was pressed in

Now HAL is in talks with BAE to weaponize HAWK for light attack role , so why not LCA strike variant instead it will pack harder punch than HAWK for sure
 

Ajit Pattnaik

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Can't the HF-24 Marut fitted with Kaveri engine be fit for CAS role ?
It was an excellent platform, was capable of Ground Attack having tolerance for ground firing. Only problem of Marut was a suitable engine. Being a subsonic fighter-bomber, Marut might become hell of an aircraft for Close Air Support
HF-24 can’t be operational, it used very old technologies. Instead of inducting that aircraft we should use it as technical demonstrator. LCA is way ahead then HF-24. By the way HF-24 is not modular design also. I can say it’s a good try to learn as we don’t have avionic knowledge that time. Speed is not the only reason for stopping this project.
 

pmaitra

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Probably somebody may be able to jam a Kaveri into a Marut but that will most probably destroy its aerodynamics and then the people trying it will have to change a lot more than just the engines. In any case the world has moved on even in terms of CAS. Not worth the trouble, I guess.
A minor nitpick. HF-24 Marut is a twin engined fighter and was also used for CAS during the Battle of Longewalla. It has an impressive record of recovery even after taking a beating in combat. However, as others have said, it might be too old and not worth the effort to resurrect it.

I don't think IA has any dedicated CAS aircrafts. Also, it would be interesting to know how F-35 vs A-10 plays out in US. If F-35 cannot beat A-10 in the near future test, then probably there would still be role for CAS fighters and they won't retire after 5th gen fighters comes in.
F-35 and A-10 are different classes. A-10 is a CAS aircraft. F-35 won't cut it as CAS aircraft with its short wings and fat fuselage.

upload_2015-10-15_19-22-12.jpeg

F-35


A-10

I personally think there is role for subsonic fighters for CAS because of the cheap solution it provides. But whether Marut can fit that role, I am not sure. It is too old to dig out of the grave.
+1

Rajat Pandit is Idiot & Dalal's puppet. He knows nothing, dont waste your time in reading him.
My issue with such statements is that once made, this concept gets propagated. It is unfair to the aircraft if it is used for tasks it is not deigned for, because when this happens, there will be more chances of crashes, and then people will blame ARDE.
 
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Kharavela

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Thanks to all who have responded to my query.

Primarily, I was not suggesting HF-24 Marut as replacement of LCA-Tejas or any other aircraft for CAS as some members thought.

Rather, I was telling to take the highly maneuverable aerodynamic structure of Marut, fit it with modern controls & avionics, mate it with two Kaveri engines.... and we may have a fantastic indigenous aircraft.

Thinking a step further, the above said configuration may be made pilot-less... Unmanned.

My query might not be for this thread. If so, request @mod to shift to an appropriate one.
 

ersakthivel

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Thanks to all who have responded to my query.

Primarily, I was not suggesting HF-24 Marut as replacement of LCA-Tejas or any other aircraft for CAS as some members thought.

Rather, I was telling to take the highly maneuverable aerodynamic structure of Marut, fit it with modern controls & avionics, mate it with two Kaveri engines.... and we may have a fantastic indigenous aircraft.

Thinking a step further, the above said configuration may be made pilot-less... Unmanned.

My query might not be for this thread. If so, request @mod to shift to an appropriate one.
Everything like engine weight , air intake design center of gravity shifting should be considered if Hf-24 is to be fitted with kaveri. It means almost a new fighter,
 

ersakthivel

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...nt-120-light-combat-aircraft-good-choice.html

"Re-positioning of major aggregates for ease of maintenance (which was a major observation) has nullified the requirement to stretch the fuselage that would have increased aerodynamic drag to such levels as to require the more powerful F-414 engine – this obviates the requirement to have LCA Mk2 for the IAF. "

Another example of top IAF men knowing what is really happening in tejas front.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/dss/2009/main/2-CEMILAC.pdf

"Reduction of wave drag One of the major out come of sea level trial of Tejas is that the drag of the aircraft is high such that the aircraft could not reach the supersonic Mach number at sea level. The components contributing for the maximum drag rise has been identified and improvement methods were worked out.

Nose cone extension using a Plug: The major component of drag at higher speed is the wave drag. This can be minimized by following the Whitcomb’s Area rule for the aerodynamic configuration design. The cross sectional area variation of LCA along the length of fuselage is shown in Fig 12. Between station X = 5000mm & 6000mm there is a sudden increase in area.

By smoothing this sudden rise, the wave drag can be minimized. A possible solution proposed is the extension of nose cone by introducing a Plug. The detailed analysis of this design and its implementation plan is being worked out.


The lengthening of the fuselage was originally proposed by CEMILAC,"to reduce the drag by increasing fineness ratio", after detailed studies,

Now manmohan bahadur makes a contradictory claim!!

hesays the fuselage lengthening was proposed for easy maintenance and it will increase the drag, so new higher power engine was needed for tejas mk2!!!

O
bviously wrong on all counts, GE 414 equiped tejas mk2 was originally conceived by navy which gave the inital 900 crore funding to make it capable of lifting off from Carrier with decent loads,not to cater for the higher drag due to fuselage lengthening , which was proposed for Tejas mk2, to increase maintenance ease as expounded by IAF top MMRCA guy manmohan Bahadur.

How these strange articles misleading people are floating all over the media is a mystery,

IAF tejas project is widely documented and all findings are in open source, still top guys making such misleading false claims, even without understanding the purpose of why fuselage is lengthened in Tejas mk2!!!
 

ersakthivel

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Tejas Grounded after Snag in Landing Gear

For almost 3,000 hours of flying, the made-in-India combat aircraft “Tejas” was a pilot’s delight, but within months of joining the Indian Air Force (IAF)’s fleet, these jets have been grounded because of nagging problems with their landing gear.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/10/tejas-grounded-after-snag-in-landing.html


IS THIS TRUE OR PRESTITUTES TRYING TO SABOTAGE THE MK1 INDUCTION?"?
The jaisalmar incident happened eons ago and everything was rectified at IOC-2 itself.
 

ersakthivel

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Each and every media report by TOI on tejas LCA by rajat pandit is a concocted lie supplied by import lobbies.

I have even countered him on twitter with the handle ersakthivel1 in his twitter page by giving him ,links to the page,

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/combat-aircraft-technology-and-evolution.47398/page-12

and he is yet to respond.

Same is the case with Shiv Aroor of live fist. he too has no understanding of the role of aerodynamics which is very important in fighter design with RSS and fly by wire validation.

Everything else like brake issue, ASEA radar, BVR, all can be upgraded in batches, The typhoons entered RAF with a concrete block in place of radar!!!

And when rafale was inducted in hundreds in French airforce, it did not have ASEA and meteor .

The 53 shortcomings suggested by CAG and was "rectified by ADA" were all issues that have to be tackled later in R&D effort , with first priority to RSS fly by wire aerodynamics validation.
 

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