Greece - SYRIZA, in the margin of the Eurozone

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,270
Likes
19,493
Just one counter-argument.

Why do you want to put blame at the doors of Goldman-Sachs all the time? They know how to jiggle numbers and that is what they are paid for. Now Greece wanted to be in eurozone, all other eurozone countries wanted Greece to be in Eurozone, if they paid GS to cook up few numbers, who is more at fault? The democratically elected govt, the EU system or Goldman? On top of that, once GS was gone, Greece still continued to do what it does best i.e. cook up its national accounts.

Btw, I read the article and could clearly see it was written by someone who knows zilch about economics.
Wrong premise. Question ought to be dismissed.

I did not put the blame at the doors of Goldman-Sachs all the time. This is what I said, "Personally, I believe the Greeks are not faultless, but their contribution to the problem is minor."

P.S.:
  • It is a theory that they paid Goldman-Sachs to cook up the numbers, just as it is a theory that Goldman-Sachs deliberately loaned them money knowing fully well they would default, thus enabling Goldman-Sachs, or its investors, to take control of facilities (say, ports) in Greece.
  • You are cooking up theories, that Greece continued to cook up numbers. Not true. Read the aritcles, and focus on Papandreou.

You were accusing some other author of writing BS. I am just pointing out the BS that you are writing.

I say again, read the posts before making an attempt at countering them. Reminder below:
_________________________________
This post, and the two previous posts came about after spending a lot of time reading through, and often verifying, a lot of material. This does not obligate anyone to refrain from making disagreeable, partially-informed, or uninformed comments, but if these posts are countered, it is expected that the person countering should at least do the right thing, and read through the content first.
 
Last edited:

Peter

Pratik Maitra
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
2,543
Likes
1,910
Country flag
actually books were cooked up by EU forcing Greece within Euro , for political and geo strategic reasons..
I do understand that it had little to do with the common Greek man and more to do with your politicians. However you people chose your govt. So in a way you too are responsible for this mess.

Also the austerity measures that were rejected by the Greek people were too lenient IMHO.You Greeks do not understand the meaning of poverty or austerity. We Indians are in perpetual austerity yet we do not go and ask for a loan.

Anyway you can check this thread out to get a feel of the poverty here.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...n-cricketer-grazes-cattle.68892/#post-1056805

Despite all these things our govt is not taking loans.
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,116
Likes
7,727
Wrong premise. Question dismissed.

I did not put the blame at the doors of Goldman-Sachs all the time. This is what I said, "Personally, I believe the Greeks are not faultless, but their contribution to the problem is minor."

P.S.:
  • It is a theory that they paid Goldman-Sachs to cook up the numbers, just as it is a theory that Goldman-Sachs deliberately loaned them money knowing fully well they would default, thus enabling Goldman-Sachs, or its investors, to take control of facilities (say, ports) in Greece.
  • You are cooking up theories, that Greece continued to cook up numbers,. Not true. Read the aritcles, and focus on Papandreou.

You were accusing some other author of writing BS. I am just pointing out the BS that you are writing.

I say again, read the posts before making an attempt at countering them. Reminder below:
_________________________________
This post, and the two previous posts came about after spending a lot of time reading through, and often verifying, a lot of material. This does not obligate anyone to refrain from making disagreeable, partially-informed, or uninformed comments, but if these posts are countered, it is expected that the person countering should at least do the right thing, and read through the content first.

The article you referenced did. I did not even debate what you said or not.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,270
Likes
19,493
The article you referenced did. I did not even debate what you said or not.
This is what you said: "Why do you want to put blame at the doors of Goldman-Sachs all the time?"

So, either you were debating me, or, as I have insinuated earlier, you don't read the posts you attempt to counter.

This is what you should have said: "Why does the author want to put blame at the doors of Goldman-Sachs all the time?"
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,116
Likes
7,727
This is what you said: "Why do you want to put blame at the doors of Goldman-Sachs all the time?"

So, either you were debating me, or, as I have insinuated earlier, you don't read the posts you attempt to counter.

This is what you should have said: "Why does the author want to put blame at the doors of Goldman-Sachs all the time?"
I don't want to go into semantics.

If you agree with the author then using you or author's name does not make a difference. If you don't then my mistake to not make it amply clear. Normally, if you reference something it implies you stand by the arguments presented in the reference.

So, now you tell me where you stand.
 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,136
It is official: Finnish Government wants Greece out of EURO for five years. Use the money in humanitarian help to Greece instead.
 

Rowdy

Co ja kurwa czytam!
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
3,255
Likes
3,045
It is official: Finnish Government wants Greece out of EURO for five years. Use the money in humanitarian help to Greece instead.
Big Question : Will Freedom of Movement be halted.
As soon as drahma comes, greeks will run away(if they haven't already ) to Britain and Germany .
 

jouni

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
3,900
Likes
1,136
Big Question : Will Freedom of Movement be halted.
As soon as drahma comes, greeks will run away(if they haven't already ) to Britain and Germany .
They will still remain in EU and enjoy cross border program benefits...we are not savages.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,270
Likes
19,493
I don't want to go into semantics.

If you agree with the author then using you or author's name does not make a difference. If you don't then my mistake to not make it amply clear. Normally, if you reference something it implies you stand by the arguments presented in the reference.

So, now you tell me where you stand.
Of course you don't want to go into semantics.

First you accuse me of pinning all the blame on Goldman-Sachs, and now you are trying to wiggle your way out after being shown that you have not read the post you are countering.

If you read through this thread, there is an abundance of posts by various posters who are pinning all the blame on Greece, and what is more ridiculous is that they are blaming the Greek people, when some (not all) major decisions have been taken by unelected officials in Greece. If you haven't had a problem with that, why should you even have a problem with me, hypothetically, pinning all the blame on Goldman-Sachs? Of course, I won't do that, because, I am trying to analyse facts, and not relying on my feelings.

The article is rhetorical, and only one of the several articles I have posted is biased. It is necessary, to counter the bias of other posts, and posters.

Simile: If you are working in a chemistry lab, and you inhale Hydrogen Sulphide, the remedy is to inhale Ammonia. You can complain that Ammonia is not neutral, but is basic, but that won't cure the problem of you having inhaled acidic Hydrogen Sulphide. That was the purpose of that article.

Normally, if you reference something it implies you stand by the arguments presented in the reference..
Normally, if I have presented a post, with added commentary, I expect people to read it. I can take a horse to the river, but cannot force him to drink water.

So, now you tell me where you stand.
Read the post. Don't ask something that has been already answered.
 
Last edited:

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,116
Likes
7,727
Of course you don't want to go into semantics.

First you accuse me of pinning all the blame on Goldman-Sachs, and now you are trying to wiggle your way out after being shown that you have not read the post you are countering.

If you read through this thread, there is an abundance of posts by various posters who are pinning all the blame on Greece, and what is more ridiculous is that they are blaming the Greek people. If you haven't had a problem with that, why should you even have a problem with me, hypothetically, pinning all the blame on Goldman-Sachs? Of course, I won't do that, because, I am trying to analyse facts, and not relying on my feelings.

The article is rhetorical, and only one of the several articles I have posted is biased. It is necessary, to counter the bias of other posts, and posters.

If you are working in a chemistry lab, and you inhale Hydrogen Sulphide, the remedy is to inhale Ammonia. You can complain that Ammonia is not neutral, but is basic, but that won't cure the problem of you having inhaled acidic Hydrogen Sulphide. That was the purpose of that article.


Normally, if I have presented a post, with added commentary, I expect people to read it. I can take a horse to the river, but cannot force him to drink water.


Read the post. Don't ask something that has been already answered.
You are again chickening out of the discussion. Either you support the rhetorical article you recommended or not.

My last post made it more than clear that normally people post references they believe in. So, their is no difference between using "you" or "author's name" in this case. Since you now made your stand clear on GS, it needs no further discussion. Just to add, the way you accepted this point, I can similarly destroy other points raised in that BS article.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,270
Likes
19,493
You are again chickening out of the discussion. Either you support the rhetorical article you recommended or not.

My last post made it more than clear that normally people post references they believe in. So, their is no difference between using "you" or "author's name" in this case. Since you now made your stand clear on GS, it needs no further discussion. Just to add, the way you accepted this point, I can similarly destroy other points raised in that BS article.
Either you are going to read the posts or you are going to ask inane questions.

I don't have time for chicanery. If you have a serious desire to get the answer to your question, read the previous posts.

Enjoy this picture of a horse drinking water. Have fun trolling with yourself.

upload_2015-7-11_17-53-58.jpeg
 

Sakal Gharelu Ustad

Detests Jholawalas
Ambassador
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
7,116
Likes
7,727
Either you are going to read the posts or you are going to ask inane questions.

I don't have time for chicanery. If you have a serious desire to get the answer to your question, read the previous posts.

Enjoy this picture of a horse drinking water. Have fun trolling with yourself.

View attachment 5445
I got your answer. Next time post something sensible.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,270
Likes
19,493
Why is Alexis Tsipras signing up to worse austerity measures for Greece?

The new reforms which have been agreed by the Greek parliament have thrown up a lot of questions. We try to answer them.

By Mehreen Khan

Why have the Greeks signed up to harsher austerity?


Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is banking on securing an agreement with his creditors to keep the country in the euro. By agreeing to carry out many of the tough reforms and spending cuts he has so far resisted, he hopes to get a big concession on relieving part of the country's debt.

Is this worse than the deal voters rejected in the referendum?

Yes and no. On the one hand the VAT hikes and pensions reforms are exactly what creditors have wanted over the last month.

However, Greece's lenders seem to have finally come round to the idea of alleviating the country's debt burden, after severe pressure from Washington. This was something that was always promised to Greece when they signed a bail-out in 2012, but it was never put in formal writing.

Athens is also asking for a much bigger rescue package than it was before. This is around €75bn over the next three years so deeper reform measures are the price they'll have to pay.

Who doesn't support the package?

Members of the hard Left faction of Syriza voted against the reform plan in parliament on Friday night.

17 lawmakers voted against the plan, abstained or were absent from the vote.

This meant that although Mr Tsipras has an overwhelming majority in his parliament - of 251 votes out of 300 - he was forced to rely on other parties after failing to gain more than 151 votes from Syriza MPs. Mr Tsipras is now set to embark on a major cabinet reshuffle next week, kicking out his hardliners, should a deal be agreed.

What does debt relief look like?

The Greeks want to have the repayments on their loans extended far into the middle of the century. Right now, the country will still be paying back their lenders in 2057. They also want to reduce the interest payments on the €330bn debt pile.

Why is it such a problem?

The eurozone's creditors, including its biggest bail-out contributor Germany, don't want their taxpayers to take a hit from further debt easing on Greece's debt. In particular, poorer members of the bloc, such as Estonia, Slovakia, and Latvia, feel they shouldn't have to suffer losses to keep Greece in the eurozone.

These countries matter because they will need to rubber stamp any rescue package through their parliaments.

Who supports the Greeks?

Their biggest backers are the French, who have been working furiously behind the scenes to convince the more hawkish creditor countries to agree to debt relief and keep Greece in the euro. Italy and Cyprus have also supported the Greek cause.

What does the deal mean for Greece?

If they can secure the agreement from EU leaders on Sunday, and pass the parliamentary votes in Finland, Germany, Estonia, Slovakia, Portugal and Austria next week, it would mean three more years of bail-outs for Greece. In return for the money, the government will have to keep hitting budget surplus targets and prove it is implementing all the necessary reforms to continue receiving rescue cash until 2018.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,270
Likes
19,493
24 hours to save the euro: Germany prepares for a 'temporary' Greek exit as euro project on the brink of collapse

Berlin plans for humanitarian aid for Greece during a five-year "euro break", after Athens is accused of destroying the trust of its partners




A demonstrator holds a placard reading "Tsipra, the people said no" during an anti-austerity rally in the northern Greek port city of Thessaloniki Photo: AP


By Mehreen Khan

The German government has begun preparations for Greece to be ejected from the eurozone, as the European Union faces 24 hours to rescue the single currency project from the brink of collapse.

Nine hours of acrimonious talks on Saturday night, saw finance ministers fail reach an agreement with Greece over a new bail-out package, accusing Athens of destroying their trust. It leaves the future of the eurozone in tatters only 15 years after its inception.

Greece news live

In a weekend billed as Europe’s last chance to save the monetary union, finance ministers will now reconvene on Saturday morning ahead of an EU leaders' summit later in the evening, to thrash out an agreement or decide to eject Greece from the eurozone.

Should no deal be forthcoming, the German government has made preparations to negotiate a temporary five-year euro exit, providing Greece with humanitarian aid and assistance while it makes the transition.

A plan drafted by Berlin's finance ministry, with the backing of Angela Merkel, laid out two stark options for Greece: either the government submits to drastic measures such as placing €50bn of its assets in a trust fund to pay off its debts, and have Brussels take over its public administration, or agree to a "time-out" solution where it would leave the eurozone.

Why is Tsipras signing up to worse austerity measures for Greece?

German vice-chancellor Sigmar Gabriel said they were Greece's only viable options, unless Athens could come up with better alternatives.

"Every possible proposal needs to be examined impartially" said Mr Gabriel, who is also Germany's socialist party leader.

Creditors' voiced their grave mistrust with Athens, a week after the Leftist government held a referendum in which it urged the Greek people to reject the bail-out conditions it has now signed up to.

A desperate Alexis Tsipras managed to secure parliamentary backing for a raft of spending cuts and tax rises to secure a new three-year rescue programme worth around €75bn-€100bn.


But finance ministers rounded on Mr Tsipras for offering to implement measures that he had previously dubbed "humiliating" and "blackmail" only seven days ago.

“We will certainly not be able to rely on promises,” said Germany's hardline finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble.

“In recent months, during the last few hours, the trust has been destroyed in incomprehensible ways," he said.

"We are determined to not make calculations that everyone knows can’t be trusted. We will have exceptionally difficult negotiations. I don’t think we will reach an easy decision.”


Germany's Wolfgang Schaeuble is the architect of a "velvet separation" for Greece

There is now open revolt among the eurozone's 19 member states, with a group of smaller creditor nations threatening to reject ratifying a new European rescue from the bloc's firefighting fund, the ESM.

Finland's parliament stands on the brink of withdrawing its negotiating mandate from the government, in a move which would force creditors to adopt an emergency voting procedure to pass a new rescue deal.

"It is still very difficult, but work is still in progress", said a dejected Jeroen Dijsselbloem, president of the eurozone's finance ministers after leaving Brussels at midnight on Saturday morning.

“There is a major issue of trust – can the Greek government be trusted to actually do what they are promising, to implement over the coming weeks, days and years?” questioned Mr Dijsselbloem.

“Even if it’s all good on paper, the question is whether it will get off the ground and will it happen?”

Peter Kazimir, the Slovakian finance minister and one of the harshest critics of European largesse to Greece, accused Mr Tsipras of “time travel”. He said that Greece’s proposed reforms would have been enough for the second programme, but added: “I’m afraid this is not enough for a third package.”

France remains Greece’s most powerful ally in the talks, having made frantic diplomatic efforts to convince smaller and poorer eurozone members that they should provide more money to rescue Greece. These efforts may now be in vain.



Michel Sapin, the French finance minister, commended the Greek government for taking a “brave” step towards compromise. “Now we need to have confidence again, to have certainty that decisions announced are decisions which are actually taken by the Greek government,” he said.

Mr Tsipras’s last gasp attempt to secure a deal has also split his Left-wing Syriza party. At least 17 of his own MPs voted against the plan or abstained when it came before parliament on Friday night.

The package was eventually passed with the support of the opposition, with 251 out of 300 MPs voting in favour.

Prominent Syriza members – including Yanis Varoufakis, the former finance minister, chose to abstain.



Mr Tsipras is now poised to embark on a major reshuffle of his cabinet as early as next week. Greece's paymasters want the government to enact legislation on labour market reform, tax hikes and pension cuts as early as next week and prove their commitment to stay in the euro.

The prime minister's main aim to ensure that his capitulation over austerity will be enough to secure the cancellation of some of Greece’s €330bn public debt mountain.

The International Monetary Fund has recommended a bold program of debt forgiveness, placing it at odds with European creditors. Washington has been forced to step in to push the Europeans to agree to lower interest rates and prolong repayments on Greek debt into the middle of the century.
________________________________________________________________________________________
So, looks like Greece's default was desired by many powers (This is speculation following the rule of cui bono, for the Doubting Thomases.):
  • It was Germany's plan right from the beginning to have Greece default, so that Brussels could take over the control of Greece.
  • It was US who wanted to take control of Greece, and a US bank, Goldman-Sachs, knowingly contrived with Greek officials to produce a fudged up evaluation of Greece's financial condition.
  • The EU wanted Greece to default, and that is why, they pressurized the elected Greek PM to accept their hostile measures, and when the elected PM refused, he happened to resign and a replacement appointed in his place, who readily accepted the EU conditions. Who made the elected PM resign? This is anyone's guess.
  • Right now, we have Germany versus USA going on, with France playing the middle ground, ready to swing in any direction.
 
Last edited:

arpakola

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
1,278
Likes
577

............................................... 10 million wishes

 
Last edited:

sob

Mod
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
6,425
Likes
3,789
Country flag
so the this Greek PM was no different than all of the others before him.

He went with the referendum only to implement all the reforms that his creditors wanted him to do so months back. In the end it was all about power and politics.
 

Rowdy

Co ja kurwa czytam!
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2014
Messages
3,255
Likes
3,045
so the this Greek PM was no different than all of the others before him.

He went with the referendum only to implement all the reforms that his creditors wanted him to do so months back. In the end it was all about power and politics.
A wise man once said.....................
Their PM reminds me of Kejru. :lol:
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

Articles

Top