Greece - SYRIZA, in the margin of the Eurozone

jouni

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Greece gave promises for 85 Billion cash,,
Not a good deal.. hoped to get them w.o promises..
(state assets..!!) now .. where is th catch..:biggrin2:

euro is becoming a strong currency ..

Yeah, we already know that you would have liked to get it wuthout promises...
 
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Rowdy

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Looking at the amount of debt and it's structure .... Greece has no chance to pay it back in this century ..... No Way.
 
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pmaitra

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The Greeks are feeling let down by Tsapiras. Tsapiras came to power on one mandate, had the mandate validated in a recent referendum, and now this. Or is this yet another attempt to show the world that he tried his best? Does he have surprises up his sleeves?

Many people are calling this a coup by foreign leaders.

The Greek people have already contributed $30 billion from their own coffers. They see that everything was fine until they decided to join the Euro project. Is this going to lead to large scale civil disobedience?

The Greek parliament will have to approve some really tough measures, and it seems they are not very likely to, although nothing could be said for sure.

Overall, it looks like any attempt to hand over control of state assets to Berlin via Brussels could potentially spark off a civil war.

The fundamental problem with Greece was at the beginning of Greece joining the Euro project. Numbers were fudged up. False dreams were sold. The EU officials, the Greek officials, and of course, the banking cartels, all have contributed to this.

Any further attempt to buy off the initial debt is only attempting to legitimize something that has been fraudulent from the outset.

The Euro project has also shown that it is vulnerable to ripple effects from the US. Upon joining the Euro, Greece was exposed to the benefits as well as the shock-waves that prevails all across the free trading world. That is exactly what happened to Greece prior to, during, and right after the 2008 ripple. Yes, I am talking about growth and bust.

My sympathies with the people of Greece. None for Tsapiras at the moment. Greece's only way out is a complete loan write-off followed by Grexit.

If one were to compare the Indian economy, although it was opened up, it was still largely shielded from external economic forces due to its inherent socialist structure. While many might argue that this has stifled growth, this Greek crisis teaches us a lesson that India's quasi-protected economy actually acts as a cushion and protects the nation as a whole. There is nothing in this world that only bring benefits but no risk.
 

sob

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Let us get something sorted out

1. No one forced Greece to join the Euro Zone. There were countries which despite being members of EC did not join the Euro.

2. Greece was not a state with high illiteracy, that the whole nation could be hoodwinked on joining the Euro. They embraced Euro whole heartedly.

3. There is no free ticket available in the real world. If there are benefits from a system then there will be side effects, also.

4. successive Greek Govt. and the people thought that they could get away without any fiscal discipline and that the rest of the Europe would bail them out. They initially tried with the banks and when that also could not sustain their lavish spending then they turned to other countries in Euro Zone and IMF to bail them out. They invited the greedy, evil banking cartels-- because they knew that other institutions would look at their books very closely and they were cooked.

5. Even if there is a complete write off and coupled with a Greek exit, nothing will change. For last so many decades the Greeks have not been able to make their ends meet and today the Global scenario has changed, trade has become more competitive and cut throat. We will look at a similar situation a few years down the line again.

One thing that the Greeks should do invite the US/Russia/China to set up a base in their country and to sell off all their military hardware to repay the loans. I am sure that they will be able to make a large dent in their outstanding and give some breathing space to the Government.
 

pmaitra

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It is not true that for the last so many decades Greece has not been able to make ends meet. Greece's problems started in 2008. This is 2015. That is less than a decade. Greek economy took a plunge after the 2008 global crisis. Up to 2007, Greece's economy was growing at around 4%.



Not many influential people could have predicted the 2008 economic shock-wave. Those that did predict were, as usual, not given enough airtime. News agencies always tend to brush things under the carpet, till issues fester, magnify, and come out in the open too big to ignore. Nouriel Roubini predicted the 2008 bubble. Von Mises predicted the collapse of the USSR. When such predictions are made, these get little airtime.

One does not have to be literate. Even Harvard graduate Ben Bernanke's failed. Moreover, not every decision is taken via referenda. Elections happen, parliament is elected, and then these lawmakers take decisions, and the citizens are not consulted for every decision. That is how representative democracy works.

It is true, however, that no one forced Greece to join the EuroZone.

If there is a complete write-off of Greece's debt followed by Grexit, most of the things will change, and the change will be for the better. After about a decade of hardship, Greece will be able to rebound, and go back to being what it was in 2001, which would be better than the current situation.

 
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pmaitra

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“Greece cheated to get in, and it’s difficult to know how we should deal with cheaters,” says Former European Central Bank Chief Economist Otmar Issing.

“ECB cheated Greece with austerity measures that acceletared the demise of the Greek economy,” say the Greek people.

Its blame game all right. What is the solution? I say Grexit.

The Reasons Why Greece Should Leave the Eurozone & Return to the Drachma

Not Just Greece, Everyone Should Leave The Euro; There's No Point In Having It At All
 

Rowdy

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Germany is now officially a superpower...it pushed US/IMF out , has ransomed about a quarter of greek GDP and rumors say no one was able to speak up to Schäuble ........ It has successfully struck fear into the the hearths of the Euro skeptics (other PIIGS) and will continue to profit from a depressed euro.
Nice Job.
 

sob

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If we look at the Greek GDP over last 15 years



The GDP actually peaked in 2009 one year after the so called GS crisis. Even today at the height of the crisis they are at levels of 2005-2006.

@pmaitra GDP growth figures do not tell the full picture especially when we are looking at developed countries. For economies like Germany or the US a GDP growth of 3% would be huge having a global impact.

In fact I would say that joining the Euro zone helped Greece to grow, but for their fiscal lack of discipline they would have been much better off.

In the agreement reached yesterday there is a very important clause-- European creditors have asked for a law to protect the legal independence of Elstat, the Greek statistics office. Greece had essentially cooked its budget books to gain entry into the euro zone. The creditors now want an independent statistics office.
 
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pmaitra

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Germany is now officially a superpower...it pushed US/IMF out , has ransomed about a quarter of greek GDP and rumors say no one was able to speak up to Schäuble ........ It has successfully struck fear into the the hearths of the Euro skeptics (other PIIGS) and will continue to profit from a depressed euro.
Nice Job.
As long as France is in EuroZone, Germany will stay in line.

BTW, what is the condition of German industrial output? I drive a VolksWagen. I went to the dealership recently for servicing, and saw that most of the components were made in Slovakia, Hungary, Mexico, USA, with German content being usually under 30%. My VolksWagen is made in Mexico, of course. :biggrin2:

I see BMW's all around, made in South Carolina.
 

pmaitra

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@sob, I agree, the GDP does not reflect the whole picture. It is just one of the many statistical metrics. The 2008 crisis has its roots in the housing laws passed by the US Congressmen, both Republican and Democrat, under the Presidentship of Democrat Bill Clinton. The ill effects were seen during the time of Republican George Bush. It takes time for the effects to show.

It is true that joining the EuroZone helped Greece grow, and it is also true that joining the EuroZone exposed Greece to the 2008 ripple. It is a double edged sword.

The EuroZone is a badly designed project. The Maastricht Treary stipulated that every new joinee will have to have Debt at no more than 60% of their GDP, but there was no mechanism if that number went through the roof after a member joined. There was no safety net. Well, actually there was, in the form of ECB emergency funds, but that would have been useful only if that funds were used to boost GDP, and that means, those funds should have been used to inject money into the Greek economy, thus inflating it. Instead, the conditions laid down were just the opposite, that of austerity. This plan was bound to fail. So, in effect, there was no safety net for all practical purposes.

I have a feeling is that this is only postponing the inevitable. No amount of bailouts will help Greece. And Greece is being bailed out so as to prevent a Domino Effect. If EMU cannot isolate EuroZone members' state liabilities from ECB creditors, like what was done in Iceland, then the entire project is going to go up in flames.
 

arpakola

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So what ? You can burn all the flags you want,still you have a huge amount of debt.
and thats the good news.. even IMF recognises this, that the debt is not payable.. and suggests haircut .. deep one.
We have made or mind.. we are not able to pay back and we will not
The so called agreement (with the 85B new loan) is about buying time to go organised to local currency, after say 2 years
 

Rowdy

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Τhis is just what IMF REPORTED ... IT WILL BE 200% BY 2018
Germany will not allow a debt haircut..... also in this agreement the banks will be controlled by the Eurogroup... so I except a depositor haircut.
 

pmaitra

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and thats the good news.. even IMF recognises this, that the debt is not payable.. and suggests haircut .. deep one.
We have made or mind.. we are not able to pay back and we will not
The so called agreement (with the 85B new loan) is about buying time to go organised to local currency, after say 2 years
Greece's condition wouldn't have been any better had the IMF bailed it out. They had asked that chocolate seller of Ukraine to bomb civilians, and in return, got IMF loans, that too, after that Arsenic "Nuland's Boy" Yatz secretly shipped out all Ukrainian gold.

No country (or their banking front) does anything for charity. Whatever EU did today, is for their own benefit. Whatever alternative IMF would have done, would have been for their own benefit.
 

jamesvaikom

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and thats the good news.. even IMF recognises this, that the debt is not payable.. and suggests haircut .. deep one.
We have made or mind.. we are not able to pay back and we will not
The so called agreement (with the 85B new loan) is about buying time to go organised to local currency, after say 2 years
Buying time? Do you want to pass debts to your future generations. If you don't have intention to repay debts then how will Greek banks ask people to repay debts? What about hard working people who put money in Greek banks? Why going back to local currency? You can import Zimbabwe dollars at cost lower than cost of paper.

Why did you waste money for referendum and doing opposite to what people asked your Govt. to do? Ministers spending more money for themselves is better than wasting money for referendum. For hard working politicians even riding bikes is a luxury. They prefer to work inside car than to ride bikes.

Situation in Greece is bad for hard working people. Standard of living of people who work hard and those who work less are same.
 

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