Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV)

[Ray]

Carrying infantry inside better protected vehicle is a advantage, the men need not to fight from inside as there is a turret with cannon provided to deal with threads, When there is a turret with a cannon why need to fight from inside ?, the logic of enemy can be shot down through portholes also compromise the deign of the vehicle being heavy armored..

I am aware sir, not just bombs many other things, But what best should be there when needed to the extend one can..

Sir, the same can slow the infantry down too, Anti-Infantry Mines..

You will forgive me, I have operated with them and they were placed under my command.

I am not talking through theory and instead through practical experience.

I was concerned since my career depended on it!

Not my knowledge from western glossies!

But if you can logically explain with tactical employment as to why fighting from within is not essential, it will be an education for me and I will be grateful.

 

[Damian]

Live in your world.

I am surprised you are not updated on wars and military history. Living and revel in the past!

For your information, check how many Indian military personnel died in WWI and WWII and so please spare us all that mushy pith about nations were learning in sweat and blood.

I have understood the quality and depth of your grasp of facts.

Did I say that Indians not participated in that war and not suffered the same losses? But the difference is that back then, the big AFV's manufacturers learned how to design and use these vehicles properly. Do You understand it? My arguments are not anti Indian for christ sake!


BTW, Above made by NII Stali, electromagnetic protection against mines with electromagnetic fuzing system.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

With armor-mechanized warfare? When did India fought a war with just masses of tanks and other AFV's?

The 1965 war witnessed some of the largest tank battles since World War II.

Battle of Asal Uttar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Battle of Chawinda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Damian]

Well Kunal, I do not see masses of armor there... in 1991 Operation Desert Storm US alone had approx 2,000+ tanks in the region, not to mentions it's allies and enemy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You will forgive me, I have operated with them and they were placed under my command.

Sir, i am just saying my views, what i see, no disrespect sir..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Well Kunal, I do not see masses of armor there... in 1991 Operation Desert Storm US alone had approx 2,000+ tanks in the region, not to mentions it's allies and enemy.

I provided about the battle in the region, The number of tank used in these single battles were in huge masses after WW2..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

In fight infantry should be outside not inside of vehicle, infantry outside is more usefull than in inside, in fact infantry should be inside only during long marches or when it is needed (artillery bombardment).

Look at any modern IFV or APC, do You see anywhere firing ports? No, these were deleted for better protection. Firing ports can be replaced by far more effective additional RWS and vehicle own weaponary in rotating turret.

When we first got the Bradley it had firing ports.

 

[Ray]

Not a great benefit as per recent conflicts. Also, lack of peripheral vision is a bane for those sitting inside.

That is the question, why?

And which conflict?

COIN?

In the US context, they will not be fighting a conventional war because no country will fight them so. Having the experience of Iraq, one wonders if the US will engage in such campaigns.

In the Indian context, conventional wars are very much in context.

Therefore, the question - is the ICV merely a battle taxi?

I am quite intrigued and Google seems to fail me.

Any links?

RWS appears a reason for no portholes. I will read it up.

However, what is the latest to the significance of a reduction in situational awareness by being restricted to operating with monitors inside the vehicle as with an RWS.

 

[pmaitra]

That is the question, why?

And which conflict?

COIN?

In the US context, they will not be fighting a conventional war because no country will fight them so. Having the experience of Iraq, one wonders if the US will engage in such campaigns.

In the Indian context, conventional wars are very much in context.

Therefore, the question - is the ICV merely a battle taxi?

I am quite intrigued and Google seems to fail me.

Any links?

Regarding the water-jet I mentioned, please see 2:50 onwards:

Voennoe Delo: It was the first! Soviet IFV BMP-1!

Regarding port-holes, I agree w.r.t. COIN and what you mentioned.

 

[Damian]

When we first got the Bradley it had firing ports.

And very quickly these were deleted. M2A2 was allready available in the late 1980's right? M2 and M2A1 were fielded somewhere in early to mid 1980's.

@pmaitra

Where are the water jet holes at the rear end of the track guards?

? Where do You see waterjets on BMPT-64 and BMPV-64? There are no water jets, these vehicles are not intended to be amphibious.

BTW if I remember correctly, firing ports originaly were added to vehicles so dismounts could fight from inside in environment with radioactive fallout, toxins, gases etc. Not because it was some super solution.

 

[Ray]

M2 infantry Bradleys also have turreted firing ports for a number of M231 Firing Port Weapons or FPWs, providing a button-up firing position to replace the top-side gunners on the old ACAV, though the M231 is rarely employed. Initial variants carried six total, but the side ports were plated over with new armor used on the A2 and A3 variants, leaving only the two rear-facing mounts in the loading ramp.

M2 Bradley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ray]

The M3 Bradley CFV is very similar to the M2 Bradley IFV (Infantry Fighting Vehicle) and only varies from it in a few subtle ways and by role. The M3 is classified as an armored reconnaissance and scout vehicle and does away with the firing ports as found on the M2 series. The M3 Bradley varies from the M2 in that it also handles more in the way of ammunition for its 25mm, 7.62mm and TOW missile weapons. Additionally, the M3 system is fielded with the same powerful two-man 25mm cannon turret with the 7.62mm coaxial machine gun.

M3 Bradley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There used to be Recce Regts with light tanks! They were tanks nonetheless.

They were not for conventional attacks with armour.

 

[Ray]

BTW if I remember correctly, firing ports originaly were added to vehicles so dismounts could fight from inside in environment with radioactive fallout, toxins, gases etc. Not because it was some super solution.

I have missed the point.

I don't understand how when the infantry dismounts, they can still fight from the inside of an ICV!

Fighting is done by the body as given in the organisation.

As I see it, the ICV will act as the pivot and firebase with its integral weapons and the section as the manoeuvre element clearing the objective.

In an NBC environment, if one is to fight dismounted one has to be in the NBC suit.

 

[Damian]

M2 infantry Bradleys also have turreted firing ports for a number of M231 Firing Port Weapons or FPWs, providing a button-up firing position to replace the top-side gunners on the old ACAV, though the M231 is rarely employed. Initial variants carried six total, but the side ports were plated over with new armor used on the A2 and A3 variants, leaving only the two rear-facing mounts in the loading ramp.

These firing ports had many disadvantages in M2, the most serious one was how infrantry was sitting inside this vehicle. It was real horror.

In M2A2 after firing ports were deleted and addon armor added, dismounts compartment was redesigned in to such thing:

So as we see, it's much better than in configuration with firing ports.

In an NBC environment, if one is to fight dismounted one has to be in the NBC suit.

And? Firing ports are obsolete these days due to numerous reasons, and can be much more effectively replaced with additional fully stabilized remote weapon stations with thermal sights and laser range finders. Also such RWS can be armed not only with machine gun but insted there can be automatic granade launcher. So once again, why to stick with something that is outdated and decrease vehicle protection and survivability?

 

[Bhadra]

What is the use of a ICV going over an objective and not being able to bring upon the targets an observed fire. Are one supposed to carry dead meat near or over an objective...

That is why even the MPVs have firing ports

 

[W.G.Ewald]

And very quickly these [ports] were deleted. M2A2 was allready available in the late 1980's right? M2 and M2A1 were fielded somewhere in early to mid 1980's.

You are correct.

BTW if I remember correctly, firing ports originaly were added to vehicles so dismounts could fight from inside in environment with radioactive fallout, toxins, gases etc. Not because it was some super solution.

I think that is correct as well.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

I have read US manuals, but since you have read them as it appears, could you give links?

I believe US training manuals are available from TRADOC.

TRADOC Publications

 

[pmaitra]

And very quickly these were deleted. M2A2 was allready available in the late 1980's right? M2 and M2A1 were fielded somewhere in early to mid 1980's.

@pmaitra



? Where do You see waterjets on BMPT-64 and BMPV-64? There are no water jets, these vehicles are not intended to be amphibious.

BTW if I remember correctly, firing ports originaly were added to vehicles so dismounts could fight from inside in environment with radioactive fallout, toxins, gases etc. Not because it was some super solution.

This is not the first time we are having communication problems. Please re-read post #123.

• I have posted two pictures that were posted earlier. One has holes, and the other does not.
• BMP-1 and BMP-2 were meant to be amphibious. Therefore, it was my assumption that this one too will be amphibious.

 

[methos]

I think we should not draw conclusions too early. The firing ports, even though the only allowed a limited field-of-view (and usage), still did have some advantages.The main advantage of firing ports was and still is that they allow the crew to fire their weapons, even if the area has been contamined by nuclear fallout. Other vehicles which doesn't have a turret with main gun and doesn't have firing ports, like the M113 are not capable to defend themselves, unless the whole crew is wearing special equipment (which does protect for a shorter frame of time than a NBC protection system of a vehicle). But we should not forget that without firing ports in most cases the crew can't fight from inside the vehicle (which should actually question the classification of the vehicle as IFV) or has to use hatches to fight enemies during mounted combat. Hatches does reveal a far more from the infantry than firing ports (firing ports reveal nothing), which means that a close MG gunner/normal soldier with assault rifle can kill members of the infantry squad.

The US, Germans, UK etc. all did decide to remove them on later generations as the situation changed. When the BMP-1 entered service, no medium vehicle was capable to resist a hit from it's HEAT rounds (at the beginning the only ammo carried). But the gun had a short effective range (< 700 m), which lead to the requirements common in NATO that IFVs should be capable to penetrate the BMP-1s armour at ranges greater than 700 m (20 mm AP can already penetrate the majority of the BMP-1s frontal armour at 1,000 m). Therefore M2 Bradley, Warrior, AMX-10 (probably) were all only capable to resist 14.5 mm rounds. The Germans somehow wanted a higher level of protection for the Marder, which made it the heaviest IFV back then. When the BMP-2 came into service, it was capable of penetrating every IFV in the NATO (14.5 mm resistant at 2,000 m with AP, Marder probably with APDS at 1,000 m). This meant that NATO forces where in a bad position, but there was a solution. While it was impossible to overcome the penetrating power of the 73 mm HEAT round with then existing armour, 30 mm AP(DS) could be stopped by up-armoured IFVs.

The side armour, even though 30 mm APDS can still penetrate it with a 90° impact from most ranges, was reinforced to increase the level of protection for +/- 20-30°.

Btw: ICV might not be the best acrynom. It can stand for Infantry Combat Vehicle (= IFV) or for Infantry Carrier Vehicle (=APC).

 

[Damian]

IMHO firing ports can be well replaced by small RWS with stabilization and much better overall + and - elevation angle for it's weapon.