F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

asianobserve

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Because there is neither inherent capability of technology (which in france's case, they got at the end of ww2), nor a national will to put domestic projects into the fastlane.

This means whenever India gets to complete a certain project, it often turns out to be outdated already. There's a certain inertia that doesn't let flow the strategy-technology-capability stream unhindered.

And in this silicon era, even the likes of France, UK are having a hard time trying to be on top of their game without having to sink billions of $ every year into R&D.

The only way you survive times like this is by instituting a total war mentality, which means if you lose, you cease to exist. Anything less than that, and the results will be appalling.

That's a lot of justification there. What I learned from school is compose a long answer if you're not sure about the answer and submit a short amswer if you're definite about it.

From my humble opinion, more so that India needs to be closer to the West since it needs to develop its military-industrial complex. On it's own, it will take glacial pace and so much more investment for India to catch up with cutting edge weapons. But if it learns from, collaborate with, and finance-share weapons developments with the West then it will get there faster and under better economies.

But India must solve first a basic question, what is its immediate and most important strategic considerations?
 

asianobserve

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We don't know what the future holds. People who say never end up eating crow. Everything is possible
It's always not good to over analyze - "analysis paralysis."

And being friend with everyone is being friend of no one. Everyone will take note that when push comes to shove you do not have their backs. They too will not have your back.

India must choose now. But they can always switch sides if strategic consideration changes later. There's simply no permanent friends in international relations, only intersecting national interests.
 

BON PLAN

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Exactly my point.

France is firmly in Western camp and yet is known for independence from US. In fact India prefers to buy high end weapons from France due to this. In other words, France is maximizing benefits in being in the Western camp while maintaining enough independence.

Why xan't India do the same, instead of instinctive "middle (to nowhere) path."
We are not searching to maximize the profit. As our market is smaller than US one, our cost are higher.
 

Bhurki

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All companies and businesses seek to maximize profit. That's the essence of business.
Not for state run French firms. The French govt would rather make a loss than to buy german trains or british aero engines.
 

asianobserve

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Not for state run French firms. The French govt would rather make a loss than to buy german trains or british aero engines.
I don't think that's the case. French companies like Dassault are private companies and no different than most other companies, they're geared at making profit. And like in most countries, the French have identified their strategic interests in business and industry, like Dassault, French wine industry, etc., that the French government are prepared to support and prop up certain companies or industries both in marketing and protecting them from getting to the hands of other or hostile countries.

And like all other companies, French companies like Dassault are motivated primarily to making profits while the French government is interested in keeping it strong to maintaining the French aviation sector.
 

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All companies and businesses seek to maximize profit. That's the essence of business.
To make a profit and to maximize the profit are two different things.
LM for exemple decided not to make a profit in the Swiss sell. It's obvious.
 

asianobserve

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To make a profit and to maximize the profit are two different things.
LM for exemple decided not to make a profit in the Swiss sell. It's obvious.
Rafale will never win against the F-35. In the Belgian fighter tender of $5B France tried to bribe the Belgian government with $21B worth of direct economic benefits and yet Rafale still lost to the F-35...
 

BON PLAN

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US Admits Its F-35 Stealth Fighter Jets Plagued With Over 860 Defects; Flight Simulator Non-Operational


Good luck switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, Norway... with this single model future fleet.
 

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Fifteen Percent Of U.S. Air Force F-35s Don’t Have Working Engines



But it's not important. The F35 simulator can to nearly all the tasks as we have seen in the swiss contest.
 

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F-35 Program Could Be Cancelled in 2023

The US Air force plan for the last two decades has been to buy lots of F-35s and retire the various F-15, F-16 and F18.
Brown acknowledged the F-35 is having engine wear issues. This is on top of many other major software problems, airframe and weapons problems.

The JSF program was expected to cost about $200 billion in base-year 2002 dollars when SDD was awarded in 2001. By 2017, delays and cost overruns had pushed the F-35 program’s expected acquisition costs to $406.5 billion, with total lifetime cost (i.e., to 2070) to $1.5 trillion in then-year dollars which also includes operations and maintenance. Delays in development and operational test and evaluation pushed full-rate production to 2021.

The US will have about 800 F-35s by the end of 2021 and about 970 by the end of 2022. Winding down the F25 program might see the US getting about half of the planned 2443 F-35s.

The US would want to try to create light-weight fighter that was a partially stealthy generation 4.5 fighter. The new fighters would likely not be cheaper than the F-35 or the latest F15. The goal would be to have lower operating costs and a reliable workhorse fighter. The US has not been able to deliver a reliable new fighter for the last 35 years.

A full cancellation of the F-35 seems unlikely. The best result could be phasing out procurement of the F35 over four years.


 

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No idea, size and weight wise, it seem plausible since it is only 5000 lbs and 5.8 meter long ( smaller than a fuel tank) and they also said it can be carried by fighter.
Are the center frame point or under wings points stronger enough for such a load ?

What is the interest of using a VLO bird for such a long range weapon ?
 

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Federal popular initiative against the F-35 Version of 1 July 2021

1 Introduction
On 27 September, the Swiss population accepted Project Air2030 by a very narrow majority. This close result underlines the strong opposition among the population to spending billions on luxury fighter jets. On 30 June 2021, the Federal Council decided to buy 36 F-35A Lightning IIs from Lockheed Martin for more than 5 billion francs, showing that it is not prepared at all to take a step towards the largest possible minority, the 49.9% who voted NO last September. Of course, close results are part of democracy and must be respected. However, if the population had not voted on an opaque and undemocratic planning decree but on a concrete procurement project with a particular model of fighter aircraft, the result would certainly have been different. It should be noted that during the campaign, the two US models clearly emerged as the most controversial. It is now a question of avoiding the worst and allowing the population to express its opinion on a concrete acquisition project. It is out of the question that Switzerland buys a stealth fighter that is extremely expensive to maintain, such as the F-35. Moreover, with the F-35, the CIA is still on board and Switzerland would not even have full access to the programmes' source codes. Switzerland would therefore not be able to use these fighters autonomously. From the point of view of the unitary committee, however, this is far from being the only fighter aircraft that should be vehemently rejected. 4
2 Arguments against the F-35
2.1 Too big, too expensive
It is far from clear why a fighter aircraft for Switzerland should be equipped with stealth technology, as is the case with the F-35. Moreover, it is foreseeable that this technology will become obsolete in the next few years due to new detection techniques. The F-35 is an oversized and overpriced luxury toy for a few army officers. This view is shared by the most senior US Air Force officer, Charles Brown, who has called the F-35 a Ferrari used in a totally wrong way.1 Other senior members of the US armed forces even call the F-35 a worthless aircraft.2 It is an oversized aircraft designed only for combat and not for air policing missions, which must be carried out in an unquestionable way. If this luxury fighter aircraft is used for daily air policing missions, the equipment will wear out far too quickly. These aircraft will then become a financial drain, something that Switzerland cannot afford in the wake of the pandemic. Sending a warplane like the F-35 into the air to intercept airliners, tourist and sports planes makes no sense at all. Light combat aircraft are more than sufficient for these missions and we support their purchase.
2.2 High Life Cycle Costs
Various reports from abroad show that if Switzerland were to buy the F-35, it would have to reckon with enormous life cycle costs. An hour of flight time with an F-35 currently costs the US Air Force $44,000, although Lockheed Martin has been promising a reduction to $25,000 by 2025 for years.3 The Canadian government commissioned a study by the renowned auditing firm KPMG, which concluded that the F-35, with a purchase volume of C$9 billion, would cost more than C$45 billion over its lifetime. This corresponds to a factor of 1 to 5 compared to the purchase price alone. Doing the same calculation for Switzerland, this would amount to a spectacular total cost of 25 billion Swiss francs for a purchase price of six billion francs. The former head of the army, André Blattmann, estimates annual costs of 12% of the purchase price, which would result in life-cycle costs of CHF 23 billion over 30 years.
1 1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...35-stealth-fighter-hasfailed/?sh=5cd633501b16.
2 Is The F-35 Irrelevant? - AVweb
3 https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-...35-as-usaf-programme-under-newpressure/142501.
article 4 See: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/reportspublications/equipment/next- generation-fighter-capability-annual-update-2014.html
5 The Norwegian Ministry of Defence, which has purchased F-35 fighter jets, uses a factor of 3.75. For Switzerland, this would mean total costs of CHF 18.75 billion, which is significantly higher than the DDPS estimate of CHF 15.5 billion for the new fighter aircraft over their lifetime. Such high lifetime costs for the new fighter jets would put other parts of the armed forces under massive pressure to make savings or force the Federal Council to increase the armed forces budget even more, which would lead to budget cuts in other departments. Spain and Japan are also struggling with the high costs of the F-35 for air policing missions. Spain has already opted for a lighter aircraft. In fact, using super fighter aircraft for air policing missions is like shooting sparrows with guns. Not only is this completely absurd, but it would also cost hundreds of millions of francs of our tax money. This madness must be prevented.
2.3 Can it fly?
Even after decades of development, the F-35 remains the problem child of the US Air Force and Navy. Apart from amusing incidents such as its inability to fly in thunderstorms, the model has significant technical flaws: - In theory, Lockheed Martin's system should automatically order spare parts. However, this software is also faulty, so that the parts have to be ordered again manually. Lockheed Martin charges the resulting additional costs to the customers. - A large part of the F-35 fleet in the US is still not operational. There are still more than 800 known defects - nearly a dozen of which are so serious that they could cause the aircraft to crash or endanger the lives of pilots. - Engines for the US F-35 programme are not being delivered quickly enough, so up to 6% of the fleet is expected to fail because of this problem alone. The US Air Force's F-35 readiness rate also remains consistently below target. For example, the Department of Defense has set a goal that 80% of all F-35s should always be capable of performing at least one mission, which is currently only possible for 69%. For the F-35A, i.e. for the model that Switzerland
5 https://defence-blog.com/news/airbus-unveils-concept-of-future-light-combat-aircraft.html and Japan Is About To Waste Its F-35s Shadowing Chinese Planes
6 https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/02/12/an-engine-shortage-is-the-newest-problem-to-hit-the-f-35- enterprise/
For the F-35A, i.e. for the model that Switzerland wants to buy, the Department of Defence has set itself a target of 70% and has also achieved it, although this figure is very low. By buying 40 aircraft, Switzerland would therefore have to count with 12 grounded aircraft. - The outer layer of the F-35 is regularly and very quickly damaged.
7 Instead of continuing to invest in improving the F-35 programme, senior US military officials are now openly considering developing an entirely new fighter aircraft or reverting to the F-16.
8 Recently, for example, U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff Charles Q. Brown said that the F-35 would be a good choice for the U.S. Army. Brown, declared the F-35 a failure
9 Christoph Miller, Acting Secretary of Defense under Trump, even called the jet a "piece of shit".
10 This raises the question of whether Switzerland should really buy a jet that may no longer be produced and developed for the US in just a few years.
2.4 Unsuitable for real conflict situations
Proponents of the new fighter jets like to emphasise that Switzerland and the Swiss army must be prepared for all scenarios, however improbable they may be. However, in the event of war, which is the only other operational situation for combat aircraft apart from air policing, combat aircraft are totally unsuitable. Current wars, such as the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh
11 or the conflict in eastern Ukraine,
12 show that combat aircraft have played a secondary, if any, role in the war. Instead, cheaper drones and guided weapons have been increasingly used. Russian-made Iksander-M ballistic missiles, such as those used by Armenia, have a range of up to 500 km. These would paralyse the entire Swiss air force in a few hours by destroying the runways. The former head of the Swiss Army André Blatmann shares this view.
13 Thus, in his opinion, combat aircraft are designed to deal with adversaries that no longer really exist in crises and conflicts near Switzerland.
7 The Defense Department still isn’t meeting its F-35 readiness goals
8 US admits F-35 failed to replace F-16 as planned, needs new fighter jet
9 Siehe: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...t-admitted-the-f-35-stealth-fighterhas-failed
10 Press Gaggle With Acting Secretary Miller En Route to Washington, D.C.
11 https://caspiannews.com/news-detail...akh-region-raiseserious-questions-2021-4-4-0/
12 https://belarusfeed.com/missile-system-crashes-village-house/
13 Critique inattendue – L’ancien chef de l’armée torpille l’achat de 40 nouveaux avions
7 2.5 What influence does the USA have?
Two US officers are already stationed in Dübendorf to regularly inspect weapons systems and aircraft purchased from the US. The basis for this is the strict US ITAR legislation, according to which the US remains the only country worldwide responsible for the storage of particularly sensitive technical components.14 The control of the software of the F/A-18 is a matter for the US government to decide. Control of the F/A-18 software remains in the hands of the manufacturer Boeing. Switzerland must obtain Washington's permission to fire short-range guided missiles. The navigation system also only works with codes that are delivered once a month from the US. The increasing technical complexity makes Switzerland even more dependent on the US. The ALIS system installed in the F-35, for example, provides Lockheed Martin with mission data after each flight. Officially, this is supposed to guarantee the automatic replenishment of spare parts, but the system goes much further. In this way, Switzerland also provides the US military with detailed information about its missions and much more. It can be assumed that Switzerland would not be able to maintain its air sovereignty against the will of the US. Either the fighters would remain directly on the ground due to built-in backdoors, or they would be prevented from taking off at the latest if the supply of spare parts by the manufacturers does not materialise. If this supply chain is interrupted, the aircraft may not be able to fly within six months. In the case of longer missions, comparable to the war in Iraq in the early 2000s, Switzerland could also be forced to let US fighter planes fly overhead. The US military-industrial complex and armed forces ensure that the economic and geostrategic interests of the government and big business are safeguarded, if necessary, by force or military intervention. Lockheed Martin is one of the largest producers of military goods. The company produces nuclear weapons as well as other prohibited weapons. Switzerland would therefore pay six billion to a company that produces weapons banned in Switzerland. The US military makes no secret of the fact that the sale of military goods also serves to promote its own interests. With the considerable development of communications between the various military systems, there is a risk that Swiss aircraft will not only be used to protect Swiss airspace in the future. So far, the DDPS has not clarified this point, although it raises many questions. With a US fighter, Switzerland would be taking another step towards NATO. In the case of the F-35, for example, it is very openly announced that it is an ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations). See interpellation 21.3148, https://www.parlament.ch/fr/ratsbetrieb/suche-curia-vista/geschaeft?AffairId=20213148 8 what the real objective of a sale of this aircraft is: the integration of all users into a common military structure.
15 https://www.defensenews.com/opinion...nteroperability-tech-strengthens-usalliances/
 

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