F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
4,925
Likes
2,856
Country flag
Selective Arithmetic to Hide the F-35’s True Costs

Selective Acquisition Arithmetic
The latest Pentagon and Lockheed Martin figure touted in the press is $77.9 million for each F-35 in the Lot 14 batch for fiscal year 2020. But taxpayers pay far more than that for an F-35. This number, like the others trotted out to prove the plane’s affordability, hardly provides the full picture not just of the price per aircraft, but the program as a whole.

The services’ publicly available budget documents provide a more comprehensive picture of these costs. According to the Air Force’s aircraft procurement justification book for fiscal year 2021, the $77.9 million sticker price for the 2020 model F-35A jumps to $110.3 million per aircraft when all aspects of the program are added together. And this figure will rise in the coming years as aircraft purchased now receive significant upgrades.



 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
2,541
Likes
3,997
Country flag
Selective Arithmetic to Hide the F-35’s True Costs

Selective Acquisition Arithmetic
The latest Pentagon and Lockheed Martin figure touted in the press is $77.9 million for each F-35 in the Lot 14 batch for fiscal year 2020. But taxpayers pay far more than that for an F-35. This number, like the others trotted out to prove the plane’s affordability, hardly provides the full picture not just of the price per aircraft, but the program as a whole.

The services’ publicly available budget documents provide a more comprehensive picture of these costs. According to the Air Force’s aircraft procurement justification book for fiscal year 2021, the $77.9 million sticker price for the 2020 model F-35A jumps to $110.3 million per aircraft when all aspects of the program are added together. And this figure will rise in the coming years as aircraft purchased now receive significant upgrades.



Sure, if including the development costs, the price of $110 million is still very good since it's a good .5 gen ahead of anything else available. Again, no body cares. Countries are lining up to buy it.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
4,925
Likes
2,856
Country flag
Sure, if including the development costs, the price of $110 million is still very good since it's a good .5 gen ahead of anything else available. Again, no body cares. Countries are lining up to buy it.
According to own LM definition it's not a 5th gen fighter.
LM definition was : Stealth AND supercruise AND F16 like agile AND sensor fusion.
F35 fails définitively on supercruise AND agility.
Add to that the speed limitation (no supersonic speed more than a few minutes), the fact that even today it can't target a moving threat on ground.

Country as Poland are not purchasing a fighter. They purchase the umbrella with "USA" written on.
 

Manticore

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
38
Likes
34
Country flag
According to own LM definition it's not a 5th gen fighter.
LM definition was : Stealth AND supercruise AND F16 like agile AND sensor fusion.
F35 fails définitively on supercruise AND agility.
Add to that the speed limitation (no supersonic speed more than a few minutes), the fact that even today it can't target a moving threat on ground.

Country as Poland are not purchasing a fighter. They purchase the umbrella with "USA" written on.
Whether it can super cruise for a limited distance it can do it. It is also showing its agility in combat config during airshows (not seeing Rafale showing its agility with all those tanks and pods are you?) Even if poland is buying it, as you say, for the U.S. umbrella, that man's they know they won't get it from Europe and especially not from France.
We have posted articles debunking all you've stated, especially the supersonic speed limitation and the cost calculation but you bring up the same stuff everytime. You bring up what it lacks yet pass over what the Rafale lacks as future upgrades f4 to f6, at which point you are just doing what everyone else is doing and adding more to an old delta wing platform that is slightly faster, a bit more agile and just as expensive.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
4,925
Likes
2,856
Country flag
Whether it can super cruise for a limited distance it can do it. It is also showing its agility in combat config during airshows (not seeing Rafale showing its agility with all those tanks and pods are you?) Even if poland is buying it, as you say, for the U.S. umbrella, that man's they know they won't get it from Europe and especially not from France.
We have posted articles debunking all you've stated, especially the supersonic speed limitation and the cost calculation but you bring up the same stuff everytime. You bring up what it lacks yet pass over what the Rafale lacks as future upgrades f4 to f6, at which point you are just doing what everyone else is doing and adding more to an old delta wing platform that is slightly faster, a bit more agile and just as expensive.
It can only "supercruise" (to mach1.2) in slight descent and for 150 or 200km.
F35 agility is not on par to a F16 with two external parts, as well known.
The French umbrella is tailored made for France. If EU decide to built a pure europen deterrence, we only have to built 4 or 6 more subs and 64 more SLBM and warheads and it's OK. But EU is not politically prepared for that.

Rafale slightly faster :rotfl: and a bit more agile :rotfl: => stop drinking man.
 

Manticore

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
38
Likes
34
Country flag
It can only "supercruise" (to mach1.2) in slight descent and for 150 or 200km.
F35 agility is not on par to a F16 with two external parts, as well known.
The French umbrella is tailored made for France. If EU decide to built a pure europen deterrence, we only have to built 4 or 6 more subs and 64 more SLBM and warheads and it's OK. But EU is not politically prepared for that.

Rafale slightly faster :rotfl: and a bit more agile :rotfl: => stop drinking man.
Based on an old study with old software, but you always ignore that.
The fact is if the French umbrella is set up only for France, what is Poland going to do? With Europe getting a nice chunk of oil and gas from Russia, who's umbrella should they be under? And that's nice how Europe is not politically prepared to defend itself.
In the end the Rafale is slightly faster with no tanks (mach 1.8) and a bit more agile, with a self defense suite that may or may not work as advertised against peer opponents in a real war, just like the F-35.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
4,925
Likes
2,856
Country flag
Based on an old study with old software, but you always ignore that.
The fact is if the French umbrella is set up only for France, what is Poland going to do? With Europe getting a nice chunk of oil and gas from Russia, who's umbrella should they be under? And that's nice how Europe is not politically prepared to defend itself.
In the end the Rafale is slightly faster with no tanks (mach 1.8) and a bit more agile, with a self defense suite that may or may not work as advertised against peer opponents in a real war, just like the F-35.
old software....
A brand new fighter with already old software.... all is said about the flying brick.

Rafale is nearly on par with F22 in dog fight. And F22 is far more agile than F35. Stop lying to your self Bro.
Same for speed. Rafale is supercruising to mach 1.4 with 4 AAM. F35 only clean, in slight descent and for 200km max.
F35 is not 5th gen according to own LM definition : this is the truth.
Only F22 is a pure 5h gen.
 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
2,541
Likes
3,997
Country flag
old software....
A brand new fighter with already old software.... all is said about the flying brick.

Rafale is nearly on par with F22 in dog fight. And F22 is far more agile than F35. Stop lying to your self Bro.
Same for speed. Rafale is supercruising to mach 1.4 with 4 AAM. F35 only clean, in slight descent and for 200km max.
F35 is not 5th gen according to own LM definition : this is the truth.
Only F22 is a pure 5h gen.
Rafale has been clocked in the past by MKI, Super Hornets in dogfights so it's a silly thing to compare, F-22 has been defeated by even T-38 or SH Block 2 as well.

Dogfights don't prove anything but pilot skill. Supercruise shouldn't be an issue when the engine is uprated for Block 4 also the F-35's real abilities still remain highly classified. There is plenty of misinformation planted to throw people off about it's real abilities.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
4,925
Likes
2,856
Country flag
Rafale has been clocked in the past by MKI, Super Hornets in dogfights so it's a silly thing to compare, F-22 has been defeated by even T-38 or SH Block 2 as well.

Dogfights don't prove anything but pilot skill. Supercruise shouldn't be an issue when the engine is uprated for Block 4 also the F-35's real abilities still remain highly classified. There is plenty of misinformation planted to throw people off about it's real abilities.
Another engine ? 18 tons of thrust not enough ? :confused1:
After another Alis,
After old software.

What's right with that scrap ?
 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
2,541
Likes
3,997
Country flag

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
2,541
Likes
3,997
Country flag
Another engine ? 18 tons of thrust not enough ? :confused1:
After another Alis,
After old software.

What's right with that scrap ?
You mean the famed Rafale F-4 will not have new software or uprated engines?
 

johnq

Regular Member
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
948
Likes
1,999
If India does go for F-35, I would choose the navy carrier version because its larger wing area provides more lift needed for the thinner air in the Himalayas, but without the heavy undercarriage of the carrier version. Although I would still prefer a dual engined fighter bomber for the Himalayas because of engine issues when operating from high altitudes, but then the F-22 is not allowed to be exported. Plus it's super expensive. Maybe the US can cooperate with India to help in the AMCA project (with licensing certain technologies) to create a cheaper dual engine fighter that can be made in larger numbers more cheaply and exported to allies as well (something similar to Brahmos). I think US will eventually cooperate with India in defence manufacturing anyways to beat China in the numbers game (by manufacturing large quantities of weapons systems more cheaply by cooperating in defence manufacturing with India).
 

Manticore

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
38
Likes
34
Country flag
old software....
A brand new fighter with already old software.... all is said about the flying brick.

Rafale is nearly on par with F22 in dog fight. And F22 is far more agile than F35. Stop lying to your self Bro.
Same for speed. Rafale is supercruising to mach 1.4 with 4 AAM. F35 only clean, in slight descent and for 200km max.
F35 is not 5th gen according to own LM definition : this is the truth.
Only F22 is a pure 5h gen.
Notice you never brings up the the Rafale is also being upgraded unless it suites you. Wasn't there F1 to F4 upgrades to the plane as it went along, there was no issue because it wasn't really a risk, just updating a basic delta wing plane. Notice no issues updating f-15, f-16 etc.
The software that was used was new for a new airframe, unlike the Rafale, which probably copy it from a mirage (faster than it's successor too)
The F-22 is more agile than the F-35, but by how much? How much more agile is the Rafale than the F-35 in that they had to slap canards on it to achieve that. How much does a pilot who knows his plane add to that?
The Rafale super cruise was claimed by dassault, any evidence? How long can it keep going for?
By LM own definition it is 5th gen, taking in the sensors, stealth and high agility.
Finally, the f-22 is 5th gen but it's sensors can't hold a candle to the f-35 untill a merger of the two takes place.
But please, keep going, but watch out, gripen and eurofighter seems to be catching up. Your not the only jet with advanced self defence and jamming capabilities. Better get going on that stealth fighter, you have, what, 15-20 years to finish as well? Baring any financial and technological delay, it might take as long as the f-35 to develop, what a coincidence.
 

FalconSlayers

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2020
Messages
791
Likes
1,976
Country flag
It can only "supercruise" (to mach1.2) in slight descent and for 150 or 200km.
F35 agility is not on par to a F16 with two external parts, as well known.
The French umbrella is tailored made for France. If EU decide to built a pure europen deterrence, we only have to built 4 or 6 more subs and 64 more SLBM and warheads and it's OK. But EU is not politically prepared for that.

Rafale slightly faster :rotfl: and a bit more agile :rotfl: => stop drinking man.
F-35 is not at all agile, if engaged in close quarter dogfight, it will lose miserable to the Flankers because of its poor manoeuvrability and agility, only edge it will have is situational awareness due to DAS.
 

Manticore

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
38
Likes
34
Country flag
F-35 is not at all agile, if engaged in close quarter dogfight, it will lose miserable to the Flankers because of its poor manoeuvrability and agility, only edge it will have is situational awareness due to DAS.
First, does each fighter fight to it's strengths or to it's weaknesses? What do you think it's tactics will be when going against different plane types? How are the enemy fighters loaded out and how much fuel that can affect manuverability? What will the mission planning look like with the assessments and locations of the enemy forces So close quarters mix ups are minimized? If the F-35 goes alone, how many will go so that linked they can target effectively cover each other? In the balance between situational awareness and agility they chose the former because sensors, jammers and missiles will only get better, while agility will hit a dead end until a way to counter g forces is found. Finally, what as the most recent close quarters guns only combat other than practice and joint training? A year ago? Five? Ten? Twenty? When missiles come into play, that's when the DAS and everything else comes into play.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
4,925
Likes
2,856
Country flag

BON PLAN

-*-
Contributor
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
4,925
Likes
2,856
Country flag
The software that was used was new for a new airframe, unlike the Rafale, which probably copy it from a mirage
Classical Dassault bashing.
No PESA/AESA on Mirage
No IRST on Mirage
No sensor fusion on Mirage
No numerical FBW on Mirage (analog FBW on M2000)
etc....
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top