F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[StealthFlanker]

You might want to go through these.
https://defenceforumindia.com/forum...-shoot-down-the-deadly-brahmos-missile.68852/

I haven't read these others links but there are quite a few mistakes in this to say the least, for example:

Mach 3 (2500-3000 km/hr) speed (which makes it very difficult to detect and track)

Mach 3 target are not hard to detect and track, since the Doppler shift on their return are much easier to distingush from clutter return. Very slow targets are hard to track because their return mash up with clutter return.

This is mainly due to the fact that NATO missile defense systems were prepared to handle Mach 1-1.5 speed Anti-Ship missiles which Russia possessed during the Cold War. But after the Mach 2-3 speed Onyx/BrahMos was developed, it surprised the western world and it is unknown what specific measures have been taken to handle this supersonic threat.

This is utter nonsense, anti ship missile which Russia possessed during the Cold War are stupidly fast, for example the Kh-22 can reach Mach 4.6 in the dive. Moskit can reach Mach 3, Kh-58 can reach Mach 3.6 ..etc
Us themselves also develop supersonic target drone such as the Mach 4 AQM-37 and GQM-163 to test their air defense capability against supersonic threat,they also purchase some MA-31 which is a version of KH-31. They intercepted these drones just fine.

The US Navy uses the SM-2 as its standard long range SAM on its destroyers. It has a range of 90+ km and uses a semi-active homing radar seeker which means that the mechanically scanning illuminators on board the warships should provide them with guidance. This proves to be a handicap as a Burke carries 3 centrally mounted SPG-62 illuminators which will find it difficult to deal with a multi directional missile attack.

Firstly, SM-2 range is 90 nm (166 km) not 90 km

Secondly, SM-2 only need CW illumination from SPG-62 in the final phase of flight, so 3 illuminator doesn't mean the ship can only engage 3 missiles at the same time

Thirdly, both ESSM and SM-2 can operate under interrupted continuous wave illumination (ICWI) mode, what that means is that the illuminator can switch rapidly between different targets yet still able to guide missile to destroy targets

https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=nOSq20UXU38C&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq="Interrupted+Continuous+Wave+Illumination+sm-2&source=bl&ots=w5HDYdbbKm&sig=ACfU3U1x9yEjqArDPcQC8pXRR7FEtSwjuQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCmKHKvZrnAhWG7WEKHRM7AbAQ6AEwBnoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

ESSM using interrupted continuous wave illumination and X-Band uplinks, and the first SM-2 Block IIIA firing using interrupted continuous wave illumination and X-Band uplinks.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-fires-evolved-seasparrow,-sm_2-(jan.-6).html

at longer ranges if its following a high altitude profile, multiple SM-2 missiles are launched to counter the threat. 2-3 SAMs are fired against subsonic threats, so it is safe to assume that 4-5 SAMs will be fired at a single incoming BrahMos missile. Again, the SM-2 wasn’t designed to handle a missile flying at 3 times the speed of sound but designed to handle Soviet missiles flying at 1-1.5 times the speed of sound

Nope and nope
several missiles are launched at one target to increase PK, but that doesn't mean they increase the number of missile launch to a ridiculous number to run themselves out of weapons.
And again, SM-2 are designed to handle supersonic threats, P-700, Moskit, Yakhont, Kh-22 , Kh-31, Kh-58 ..etc are all Mach 3- 4 missiles, and the drone targets that US used to test their air defense such as MA-31, AQM-37, GQM-163 can also reach Mach 3-4.

Let us consider a scenario in which a Burke class destroyer escorting a carrier battle group (CBG) is faced with a swarm of 8 BrahMos/Yakhont Anti-Ship missiles. Once the missiles are detected by the AWACS at 150+ km from the ship, the usual procedure would be to direct fighter jets from a nearby carrier towards the missile to shoot it down.

Utter nonsense and nonrealistic scenario.
Brahmos/Yakhont can't just magically appear out of thin air 150 km from the carrier, they need to be launched by some kind of platform, whether it is a destroyer or a fighter aircraft, they will be detected from a significantly greater distance by the AWACS and frankly, they will be attacked by the carrier air wing long before they have the chance to launch the 120 km range missiles.

But in this case, the missile is traveling at 3 times the speed of sound. Fighter jets will have 1/3 the time to react when compared to facing subsonic missiles. Hence the chances of a successful shoot down by fighters is less

This is not necessarily the case, your missiles might travel 3 times faster, but the stealth subsonic missile might be detected at only 1/3 the distance, then the interception times is quite similar.

But if we consider a solitary destroyer acting on its own, then the BrahMos will be detected at about 25-30 km from the ship. Considering a salvo of 8 BrahMos and that the missile travels at 1km/sec, the Burke has about 25-30 seconds to react

Well, Arleigh Burke could use SM-2, ESSM and SM-6 to attack that destroyer since their missiles also have a surface to surface mode and they can fly faster than Brahmos.

But there’s a big flaw in this if you haven’t noticed. Firing 24 ESSM takes 24 seconds, 4 ESSM target 1 BrahMos, so 24 of these can target 6 BrahMos and by that time the last few ESSM have been fired, there are still 2 BrahMos missiles left untargeted and speeding towards the Burke. So what’s the flaw? Think ……….If 16 BrahMos missiles (the capacity of new gen Russian frigates and Indian destroyers) were fired instead of 8, the defense of the Burke would be saturated if it’s operating alone.

This doesn't make a lot of sense, Arleigh Burke has 2 VLS group location, one in the front, one in the back.
So really not thing would stop it from launching 1 ESSM at the front and 1 ESSM at the back simultaneously.

and they can also ripple fire from the same front or back group

 

[asianobserve]

Negotiations ‘almost complete’ on Poland’s buy of 32 F-35s, defense minister says

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...olands-buy-of-32-f-35s-defense-minister-says/

 

[asianobserve]

HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH TO BEGIN UK TRIALS WITH F-35 FIGHTER JETS TODAY

https://www.islandecho.co.uk/hms-queen-elizabeth-to-begin-uk-trials-with-f-35-fighter-jets-today/

 

[vampyrbladez]

I haven't read these others links but there are quite a few mistakes in this to say the least, for example:

Mach 3 target are not hard to detect and track, since the Doppler shift on their return are much easier to distingush from clutter return. Very slow targets are hard to track because their return mash up with clutter return.

Nonsense! BrahMos can adjust it's altitude to around 3-5 m above sea level. This puts right below the FoV of most radar systems.

This is utter nonsense, anti ship missile which Russia possessed during the Cold War are stupidly fast, for example the Kh-22 can reach Mach 4.6 in the dive. Moskit can reach Mach 3, Kh-58 can reach Mach 3.6 ..etc
Us themselves also develop supersonic target drone such as the Mach 4 AQM-37 and GQM-163 to test their air defense capability against supersonic threat,they also purchase some MA-31 which is a version of KH-31. They intercepted these drones just fine.

These aircraft drones are rated at 11 - 13 G max structural integrity. Your BrahMos missile is rated at atleast 40 G+ at terminal maneuver.

Firstly, SM-2 range is 90 nm (166 km) not 90 km

Secondly, SM-2 only need CW illumination from SPG-62 in the final phase of flight, so 3 illuminator doesn't mean the ship can only engage 3 missiles at the same time

Thirdly, both ESSM and SM-2 can operate under interrupted continuous wave illumination (ICWI) mode, what that means is that the illuminator can switch rapidly between different targets yet still able to guide missile to destroy targets

https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=nOSq20UXU38C&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq="Interrupted+Continuous+Wave+Illumination+sm-2&source=bl&ots=w5HDYdbbKm&sig=ACfU3U1x9yEjqArDPcQC8pXRR7FEtSwjuQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCmKHKvZrnAhWG7WEKHRM7AbAQ6AEwBnoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-fires-evolved-seasparrow,-sm_2-(jan.-6).html

Your SM series except SM 6 are incapable of matching the BrahMos. Even then you need 2-4 launches per AsHM to attack the enemy. The reason being it's inability to match the BrahMos during the aforementioned terminal stage. As per this source its turn rate is around 35 G.

https://www.x-plane.org › text › sam Surface to air missile non-comparison table - X-Plane.org

Nope and nope
several missiles are launched at one target to increase PK, but that doesn't mean they increase the number of missile launch to a ridiculous number to run themselves out of weapons.
And again, SM-2 are designed to handle supersonic threats, P-700, Moskit, Yakhont, Kh-22 , Kh-31, Kh-58 ..etc are all Mach 3- 4 missiles, and the drone targets that US used to test their air defense such as MA-31, AQM-37, GQM-163 can also reach Mach 3-4.


Utter nonsense and nonrealistic scenario.
Brahmos/Yakhont can't just magically appear out of thin air 150 km from the carrier, they need to be launched by some kind of platform, whether it is a destroyer or a fighter aircraft, they will be detected from a significantly greater distance by the AWACS and frankly, they will be attacked by the carrier air wing long before they have the chance to launch the 120 km range missiles.

This is not necessarily the case, your missiles might travel 3 times faster, but the stealth subsonic missile might be detected at only 1/3 the distance, then the interception times is quite similar.



Well, Arleigh Burke could use SM-2, ESSM and SM-6 to attack that destroyer since their missiles also have a surface to surface mode and they can fly faster than Brahmos.


This doesn't make a lot of sense, Arleigh Burke has 2 VLS group location, one in the front, one in the back.
So really not thing would stop it from launching 1 ESSM at the front and 1 ESSM at the back simultaneously.

and they can also ripple fire from the same front or back group

If you require 2-3 SM6 per launch, then a full battery of 16 BrahMos will require 24-36 SM6 to have some level of reasonable protection.

This means your S band radar is occupied and cannot engage other threats.

Now imagine dozens of BrahMos swarming your defences. There is a reason US Navy is investing in drone based radar sensors and passive RWR sensors to screen ahead.

 

[Bhurki]

Nonsense! BrahMos can adjust it's altitude to around 3-5 m above sea level. This puts right below the FoV of most radar systems.

The range when flying at low altitude is just 40% of total adv range. Original brahmos has a range of 300 km at altitude, 120 km at sea level, which is quite a handicap.

Even at increased range of 500 km, the sea level range will be only 200 km.

 

[Bhurki]

Here is a nomogram for calculating max allowed height for radar evasion for non stealth target.

Which means brahmos will always fly at altitude lesser than 10,000 feet if it wants to evade an An/Spy 1D ( advertised performance of detecting 1m² target at 500km), thereby reducing its effective range.

And the backfit of AMDR or SPY 6 will ensure this detection capability will only strengthen further since this year with increase in signal strength of about 15db meaning it can detect half the rcs at twice the range as compared to SPY1

 

[asianobserve]

Please post videos of Bhramos terminal maneuver. Here's a video of GQM-173A supersonic target drone's maneuvering capability:

 

[rkhanna]

Please post videos of Bhramos terminal maneuver. Here's a video of GQM-173A supersonic target drone's maneuvering capability:

There is non for obvious opsec reasons

 

[Bhurki]

Your BrahMos missile is rated at atleast 40 G+ at terminal maneuver.

I'm not sure where you get that number from, and i highly doubt it, since thats the operational capacity for long range AA missiles like aim120.

G limit is dependent on load factor which is determined by aero lift, drag and weight of a missile. Bramhos has small lift surfaces and experiences high wave drag due to its supersonic speed, so assume it to have max g rating of about 25g at terminal stage.(based on exocet)

25 g sounds impressive when compared to manned aircraft but its really hard to evade a projectile which wants to 'touch' you head on within a range of 10m(nominal kill radius for pre fragmented SAM warhead).

At its terminal phase, brahmos is doing Mach 3 or 1 km/s.
25g gives a turn circle diameter of 8000m.
(A=V²/R)

For a missile like harpoon moving at 250m/s even if rated at same 25g (despite larger control surfaces and lighter weight), diameter will be only 500m.

For example a 60° adjustment of trajectory ( to be done in scenarios like S manuever)
will require 4000m of distance and 4 seconds to execute, which wont exactly be called 'nimble' by an interceptor, and atleast 2 such adjustments will be required for an S maneuver.

 

[asianobserve]

US Marines get 1st F-35C that can operate on an Aircraft Carrier

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mi...ter-jet-can-operate-aircraft-carrier.html/amp

 

[StealthFlanker]

Nonsense! BrahMos can adjust it's altitude to around 3-5 m above sea level. This puts right below the FoV of most radar systems.

Firstly, every single anti ship missiles with sea skimming mode can do that, which mean LRASM, AGM-119, NSM, Exocet, Harpoon, RBS-15, JSM ...etc and a hundred others can all adjust their altitude just above the wave. There is absolutely nothing special about that ability, and no it wont put your missile below the fov of ship or Fighter radar system
Secondly, a subsonic stealth missile in sea skimming mode are much harder to track since their return are so easy to blend in with the sea return

These aircraft drones are rated at 11 - 13 G max structural integrity. Your BrahMos missile is rated at atleast 40 G+ at terminal maneuver.

Nope, Brahmos are not rated for 40 G terminal maneuver and I can bet you won't find a single brochure from manufacturer mention such a thing as it is totally ridiculous. Besides, the wing loading of GQM-163 and AQM-37 will be much lower than Brahmos (since their wing are much larger relative to their weight and fuselage size, don't forget that Brahmos is nearly 3 tons with tiny wing), so at any given speed, these target drone will always have more available G (lift) to pull so physically speaking there is no way Brahmos can perform tighter turn

Your SM series except SM 6 are incapable of matching the BrahMos. Even then you need 2-4 launches per AsHM to attack the enemy. The reason being it's inability to match the BrahMos during the aforementioned terminal stage. As per this source its turn rate is around 35 G.

https://www.x-plane.org › text › sam Surface to air missile non-comparison table - X-Plane.org

As mentioned earlier, there is absolutely no way Brahmos can pull more G than these target drone given that these drone are lighter and have bigger wing relative to their size. Nevermind the fact that an actual anti air missile such as SM-2 which will not only have better wing loading and lift coefficient but also better acceleration than a massive anti ship missile such as Brahmos

If you require 2-3 SM6 per launch, then a full battery of 16 BrahMos will require 24-36 SM6 to have some level of reasonable protection.

This means your S band radar is occupied and cannot engage other threats.

Now imagine dozens of BrahMos swarming your defences. There is a reason US Navy is investing in drone based radar sensors and passive RWR sensors to screen ahead.

Spy-1 can track around 100 targets at the same time so 16 Brahmos wont overwhelm it.
https://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/defense-systems/anspy-1-radar/

 

[StealthFlanker]

If you require 2-3 SM6 per launch, then a full battery of 16 BrahMos will require 24-36 SM6 to have some level of reasonable protection.

This means your S band radar is occupied and cannot engage other threats.

If destroyer radar can be overwhelmed by merely 16 missiles, it will be completely useless when facing miniature missiles like SPEAR which a single F-35 can carry 24

 

[vampyrbladez]

If destroyer radar can be overwhelmed by merely 16 missiles, it will be completely useless when facing miniature missiles like SPEAR which a single F-35 can carry 24

There are two types of missiles. A flasher and a dancer. BrahMos is a combination of both. This is why the pK in the case of interception of BrahMos is very low for the target.

 

[vampyrbladez]

I'm not sure where you get that number from, and i highly doubt it, since thats the operational capacity for long range AA missiles like aim120.

G limit is dependent on load factor which is determined by aero lift, drag and weight of a missile. Bramhos has small lift surfaces and experiences high wave drag due to its supersonic speed, so assume it to have max g rating of about 25g at terminal stage.(based on exocet)

25 g sounds impressive when compared to manned aircraft but its really hard to evade a projectile which wants to 'touch' you head on within a range of 10m(nominal kill radius for pre fragmented SAM warhead).

At its terminal phase, brahmos is doing Mach 3 or 1 km/s.
25g gives a turn circle diameter of 8000m.
(A=V²/R)

For a missile like harpoon moving at 250m/s even if rated at same 25g (despite larger control surfaces and lighter weight), diameter will be only 500m.

For example a 60° adjustment of trajectory ( to be done in scenarios like S manuever)
will require 4000m of distance and 4 seconds to execute, which wont exactly be called 'nimble' by an interceptor, and atleast 2 such adjustments will be required for an S maneuver.

The BrahMos has been shown capable of being extremely maneuverable. It has performed the S maneuver repeatedly at the terminal stage.

Firstly, every single anti ship missiles with sea skimming mode can do that, which mean LRASM, AGM-119, NSM, Exocet, Harpoon, RBS-15, JSM ...etc and a hundred others can all adjust their altitude just above the wave. There is absolutely nothing special about that ability, and no it wont put your missile below the fov of ship or Fighter radar system
Secondly, a subsonic stealth missile in sea skimming mode are much harder to track since their return are so easy to blend in with the sea return


Nope, Brahmos are not rated for 40 G terminal maneuver and I can bet you won't find a single brochure from manufacturer mention such a thing as it is totally ridiculous. Besides, the wing loading of GQM-163 and AQM-37 will be much lower than Brahmos (since their wing are much larger relative to their weight and fuselage size, don't forget that Brahmos is nearly 3 tons with tiny wing), so at any given speed, these target drone will always have more available G (lift) to pull so physically speaking there is no way Brahmos can perform tighter turn



As mentioned earlier, there is absolutely no way Brahmos can pull more G than these target drone given that these drone are lighter and have bigger wing relative to their size. Nevermind the fact that an actual anti air missile such as SM-2 which will not only have better wing loading and lift coefficient but also better acceleration than a massive anti ship missile such as Brahmos


Spy-1 can track around 100 targets at the same time so 16 Brahmos wont overwhelm it.
https://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/defense-systems/anspy-1-radar/

1. BrahMos can skim at 3-4 m above sea level which most AsHM cannot (around 10 m)

2. BrahMos has a ramjet engine with side vanes. The 40 G is a very conservative estimate.

Refer to the video above for the snap and turn of the BrahMos.

3. You have less then 20 - 30 seconds to react when these babies start popping up for the terminal stage. Assuming you expend atleast 48 odd SM6, your AB Destroyer doesn't have a reasonable chance of making it back home.

That's why Iran and it's saturation tactics terrify the USN.

 

[Bhurki]

BrahMos has a ramjet engine with side vanes. The 40 G is a very conservative estimate.

Any number can be quoted...
But without understanding of 'how', its just useless to talk about it..
The ramjet side vanes at best can give torque to the rear to change direction, but I'm not sure how would it maintain lift and consequent speed at such scenario without extra lift surfaces in the front.

You just need to look at the photo you posted to see the size of those wings.

 

[StealthFlanker]

The BrahMos has been shown capable of being extremely maneuverable. It has performed the S maneuver repeatedly at the terminal stage.

What you saw in that video is not a terminal S maneuver, it is a pivot of missile's fuselage just after it leave the launch tube, the missile is hardly even high subsonic at this post and actually only 200-300 km/h at most at this point, so no, that is not a 40G maneuver, not even remotely close. That is at most 3-4G maneuver as missile is still very slow at that point.
And literally, every single missiles that are capable of vertical launch can perform that turn. Don't believe me? Here is a video of Tomahawk doing the exact same thing and tomahawk is not agile by any mean

1. BrahMos can skim at 3-4 m above sea level which most AsHM cannot (around 10 m)

Well actually, most subsonic anti ship missile can do even better since they wont create the sonic wave that will interfere with water surface.
Take for example, even the very old Exocet can sea skimming just 1 meter above the sea surface
http://www.military-today.com/missiles/exocet.htm

2. BrahMos has a ramjet engine with side vanes. The 40 G is a very conservative estimate.

Refer to the video above for the snap and turn of the BrahMos.

To make 40G turn, you need to generate a force equal to 40 times your mass and perpendicular to direction of travel. In other words, for the 2.8 tons Brahmos to make a 40 G turn, these tiny side vanes have to generate over 112 tons of force. Sorry but that will never happen, not in a millions year.
And as I explained earlier, these turn in your video is not 40G maneuver, not even remotely close.

3. You have less then 20 - 30 seconds to react when these babies start popping up for the terminal stage. Assuming you expend atleast 48 odd SM6, your AB Destroyer doesn't have a reasonable chance of making it back home.

That's why Iran and it's saturation tactics terrify the USN.

Firstly, not all Brahmos must be intercepted with SM-6, some can be intercepted with ESSM, some can be intercepted with RIM-116
Secondly, AB destroyer has 96 VL cells, if it use 48 SM-6 to intercept missiles, the other 48 SM-6 can be used to attack enemy destroyer. How many missiles will the Indian destroyer use to intercept 48 SM-6?

 

[IndianHawk]

Firstly, not all Brahmos must be intercepted with SM-6, some can be intercepted with ESSM, some can be intercepted with RIM-116
Secondly, AB destroyer has 96 VL cells, if it use 48 SM-6 to intercept missiles, the other 48 SM-6 can be used to attack enemy destroyer. How many missiles will the Indian destroyer use to intercept 48 SM-6?

It won't be Indian destroyers but Indian jets raining bramhos and bramhos Ng / scalp / nirbhaya from standoff distances.

 

[asianobserve]

Guys this is my favorite thread --- F-35 thread. There's a Bhramos thread.

 

[StealthFlanker]

It won't be Indian destroyers but Indian jets raining bramhos and bramhos Ng / scalp / nirbhaya from standoff distances.

Scalp and nirbhaya cant engage moving target so they are useless against a destroyer.
Besides, I was talking about solitary AB destroyer vs solitary Indian destroyer. Otherwise, there is nothing stopping the carrier air wing from destroying these aircraft before they have the chance to launch their missiles.

 

[IndianHawk]

Scalp and nirbhaya cant engage moving target so they are useless against a destroyer.
Besides, I was talking about solitary AB destroyer vs solitary Indian destroyer. Otherwise, there is nothing stopping the carrier air wing from destroying these aircraft before they have the chance to launch their missiles.

Nirbhaya air lauch version will attack moving targets .

How will carrier air wing attack the jets throwing missile from 500 km away that too from unknown directions. That carrier air wing will also be engaged by other jets of Indian air force in air to air battle. Not to mention if carriers are near Indian shore they will be attacked from all kinds of land based cruise missiles including hypersonic shourya with 1800km range.



These are too simplistic scenarios and therefore meaningless.