F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[asianobserve]

If a carrier is going to attack us then a plane will fly from carrier to near shore and back ( f18 ) follow the plane and you know exactly where the carrier is. If the carrier isn't attacking no need to find it.

A US carriers alone costs 30 billion with air wing .
A bramhos costs 2 mil only . We'll have no issue throwing 1000 bramhos on it and yet it will only cost 2 billion!!

They don't have enough Sam buddy.

US carriers are about to double their fighters' sttack range with the introduction of this refuelling drone:

 

[asianobserve]

Even US is aware of how useless it's carriers are against major missile powers I'll give two pointers

1. Debate in US about future of large carriers against threat of carrier killer missile

2. USA 6th fighter jet design which calls for more range than ever so that carriers can operate much further from what they can do now. Otherwise they won't survive.

The USN is already addressing the carriers' vulnerabilities to area denial weapons by increasing the legs of its fighters through drone refuellers and increasing the range of their cruise missiles.

So an aircraft carrier with refuelling drones and new long range stealthy high subsonic attack cruise missiles can attack targets more than 1,000 nm away.

The introduction of US hypersonic cruise missiles with ranges in excess of 1,000 kms will only further increase US carriers risks.
https://www.japcc.org/will-the-aircraft-carrier-survive/

 

[asianobserve]

If a carrier is going to attack us then a plane will fly from carrier to near shore and back ( f18 ) follow the plane and you know exactly where the carrier is. If the carrier isn't attacking no need to find it.

A US carriers alone costs 30 billion with air wing .
A bramhos costs 2 mil only . We'll have no issue throwing 1000 bramhos on it and yet it will only cost 2 billion!!

They don't have enough Sam buddy.

That's a rather uninformed view of carrier ops: 1) carrier based attacking planes are always protected by carrier fighters. So any enemy chase planes will be clubbered by these package escort fighters; 2) the aircraft carrier itself has AWACS networked with satellites that monitors any possible the attack and the carrier. Thus there will be no surprise to carriers from land based fighters; 3) the carriers and its escorts have layers of anti aircraft and anti-AShM missiles that can neutralize attacking aircraft or their weapons.

Beneath the waves, USN attack submarines are keeping guard plus carrier escort ships with antisubmarine warfare cspabilities.

 

[Defcon 1]

That's a rather uninformed view of carrier ops: 1) carrier based attacking planes are always protected by carrier fighters. So any enemy chase planes will be clubbered by these package escort fighters; 2) the aircraft carrier itself has AWACS networked with satellites that monitors any possible the attack and the carrier. Thus there will be no surprise to carriers from land based fighters; 3) the carriers and its escorts have layers of anti aircraft and anti-AShM missiles that can neutralize attacking aircraft or their weapons.

Beneath the waves, USN attack submarines are keeping guard plus carrier escort ships with antisubmarine warfare cspabilities.

Fighters are not the only option to approach carriers. Once it has been located, it can be targeted via other means such a brahmos NG mounted on INS kalvari. It will be doubly difficult for any carrier defences to locate and hunt for subs compared to vice versa.
Anyways, I suggest we close this discussion now to avoid derailing the thread.

 

[asianobserve]

Fighters are not the only option to approach carriers. Once it has been located, it can be targeted via other means such a brahmos NG mounted on INS kalvari. It will be doubly difficult for any carrier defences to locate and hunt for subs compared to vice versa.
Anyways, I suggest we close this discussion now to avoid derailing the thread.

With only 300km range or even if upgraded to 600 km range, Bhramos sea lunching platform like submarine will be vulnerable to anti-submarine assets of the CBG like SH-60B armed with dipping sonars and light weight torpedoes.

Second, once Bhramos is out of the water it"s vesible to radar and satellite sensors. The CBG will be tracking the Bhramos for interception.

Third, CBGs close to land masses will most of the time have Poseidon cover scouring for submarines amd all other threats.

So it's not easy to hit a carrier. But it can be done with enough resources.

 

[StealthFlanker]

If a carrier is going to attack us then a plane will fly from carrier to near shore and back ( f18 ) follow the plane and you know exactly where the carrier is. If the carrier isn't attacking no need to find it
Exactly there are AWACS to track those attacking planes from 100s of miles away and patrol aircrafts + drones to scan the general direction of plan and then there are satellites to scan once you have an idea of general direction. No Carrier can remain hidden if it's using its air wing

F-18 E/F combat radius is 1300 km, with MQ-25 that will be increased by 45% which brings it up to 1885 km.
JASSM-XR range as mentioned earlier is 1600 km and it doesn't even have to fly a direct path toward target.
How can you even follow the F-18 back to the carrier?
You have to somehow detect it from 1600 km away, then magically track its flight path for another 1885 km
How do you even plan to do that? What AWACS or drone can even track the F-18 from 1600 km aways let alone the F-35C fleet?. It is simply impossible to say the least.

A US carriers alone costs 30 billion with air wing .
A bramhos costs 2 mil only . We'll have no issue throwing 1000 bramhos on it and yet it will only cost 2 billion!!

They don't have enough Sam buddy.

That is the worst comparison I have ever seen.
Brahmos can't just magically appear out of thin air to attack the Nitmiz fleet. It needs some platform to carry it to 600 km from the Nitmiz before it can fly toward target. That mean you either have to carry it by destroyer or fighter.
Su-30 MKI cost 42 millions USD if imported from Russia and 70.3 millions if produced in India
https://www.defensenews.com/industr...s-may-shut-down-toppling-400-local-suppliers/
If you somehow literally want to launch 1000 Brahmos at the carrier at the same time, that mean you will need 1000 Su-30MKI, which will cost a total of 42 billions USD if they are imported from Russia, and 72 billions USD if they are made in India. Now for a more realistic scenario, let say you will strike the carrier fleet 3 times in 3 different sorties, that mean you will need only 1/3 the number of fighter to launch 1000 missiles, 333 Su-30 MKI will still cost 13.9 billions USD if they are imported and 23.9 billions USD if they are produced in India. But things does not stop there, to be able to attack the carrier fleet from 2900 km away, you still need something to refuel your fighter, otherwise your aircraft will just fall to the ocean. How many tanker will you need to perform aerial refueling for over 333 fighters? not a small number I tell you. That not to mention the cost of OTH radar so that you know where the carrier are in the first place.

Like I said 1000 miles is within su30 and bramhos striking range . With nirbhaya we could hit 1500-2000 miles away. No carrier can outrun a supersonic fighter jet and and no carrier can remain hidden once it's using its air wing to attack. Su30 can fly 8200km with two refueling it can fly 3000 km without refueling

Nirbhay range is 1000 km, and it doesn't even have radar or thermal seeker to attack moving target. So it is literally useless when used against moving target since the only kind of guidance it has is GPS, INS.

Regarding Su-30 fly range with refueling:
1- Don't mistaken combat radius with range, Su-30 can fly 3000 km only if you dont intend to make it come back, aka literally fall down the ocean after 3000 km. Besides, ferry range are done in optimal condition with no heavy load, carry a 2.8 tons Brahmos under its belly is not the optimal condition
2- You can extend the ferry range to 8000 km with 2 in flight refueling , but the question remain the same, where the heck do you put these tankers when you don't even know where is the location of the carrier fleet in the first place?.
3- Tanker can't just magically appear out of thin air either, they also use fuel to fly to a location and they also use fuel to refuel others fighters so there is a limitation on how many aircraft they can refuel before they can come back to base. India have a huge tanker fleet of 6 il-76, that certainly not enough to refuel 333 Su-30MKI.

The whole discussion is redundant since no US Sam can intercept supersonic bramhos they are simply too slow.

That is utter nonsense, GQM-163 top speed is Mach 2.6 at low altitude, AQM-37 top speed is Mach 4
yet they are used as targets to test SM-2, SM-6, ESSM all the time.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Fighters are not the only option to approach carriers. Once it has been located, it can be targeted via other means such a brahmos NG mounted on INS kalvari. It will be doubly difficult for any carrier defences to locate and hunt for subs compared to vice versa

Locate a carrier from 3485 km before it launch its attack is kinda super hard to say the least.
Never mind the fact that INS Kalvari (S21) submerged range is only 1020 km at 7.4 km/h which means it won't even have enough range to touch the carrier, Scorpène class isn't any better. While Sindhughosh class is even worse achieving only 640 km range at 5.6 km/h. There is pretty good reason why US uses nuclear attack submarine instead of diesel submarine even though diesel subs are quieter because diesel submarine simply doesn't have the endurance to follow enemy ballistic submarine and threaten carrier fleet
Sure you can make it surfaced to gain more range but then it will be even worse than a gun boat, lacking in any short of air defense, radar ..etc

 

[Defcon 1]

Locate a carrier from 3485 km before it launch its attack is kinda super hard to say the least.
Never mind the fact that INS Kalvari (S21) submerged range is only 1020 km at 7.4 km/h which means it won't even have enough range to touch the carrier.
Sure you can make it surfaced to gain more range but then it will be even worse than a gun boat, lacking in any short of air defense, radar ..etc

Is your assumption here that the carrier will remain 3485 km out in the sea and will never approach the shoreline, or if it does, every detection system within 3485 km will be obliterated? Anyways as I said, I am not interested in derailing this thread. Lets continue this discussion on another thread if you want to continue.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Is your assumption here that the carrier will remain 3485 km out in the sea and will never approach the shoreline, or if it does, every detection system within 3485 km will be obliterated?

If you have a gun and your opponent has a knife, will you approach the melee range to fight? certainly not.
There isn't any reason for the carrier to get close if the threats is there. Like I said, the main advantage of a carrier compare to OTHR, command center, air base, bunker, hydro dam ...etc is that it can move. And this is a very significant tactical advantage. It will bombard until the threats level become very low.

 

[Defcon 1]

If you have a gun and your opponent has a knife, will you approach the melee range to fight? certainly not.
There isn't any reason for the carrier to get close if the thread is there. Like I said, the main advantage of a carrier compare to OTHR, command center, air base, bunker, hydro dam ...etc is that it can move. And this is a very significant tactical advantage

Ok so lets continue with that assumption. So the carrier is some 3500 km away in the sea and there is a virtual no fly zone around it courtesy of the barcaps set up by super hornets. In this the basic requirement will be to destroy this no fly zone and achieve air superiority in order to get close enough to the carrier. 4-5 squadrons of mki will be required for such an operation. Only once that is done, awacs will be able to get close enough to detect the carrier and direct the kalvari already lurking in the area towards the exact carrier location

 

[Bhurki]

Because of underlying technology which is optimisation of existing aim technology .

What underlying tech that you're sure off..
You do know abt peregrine, right?

 

[Bhurki]

Exactly there are AWACS to track those attacking planes from 100s of miles away and patrol aircrafts + drones to scan the general direction of plan and then there are satellites to scan once you have an idea of general direction. No Carrier can remain hidden if it's using its air wing .


Like I said 1000 miles is within su30 and bramhos striking range . With nirbhaya we could hit 1500-2000 miles away. No carrier can outrun a supersonic fighter jet and and no carrier can remain hidden once it's using its air wing to attack. Su30 can fly 8200km with two refueling it can fly 3000 km without refueling.



The whole discussion is redundant since no US Sam can intercept supersonic bramhos they are simply too slow. And we won't stop because like I calculated bramhos is cheap against carrier.

And all these destroyers and cruiser will have to face all other Indian naval assets from Indian carriers to destroyers to Nuke subs (akula) to Scorpion. So it's not just bramhos it's also scalp from Rafale , bramhos Ng from mig29 , mwf etc and nirbhaya from planes and simply from Indian mainland as it's longer ranged and even cheaper than bramhos. You are severely underestimating Indian abilities. I have yet not discussed dhanush or other ballistics missile which also come into play if push comes to shove.

If cruise missiles like brahmos were good enough, china would've never created ballistic AShM. The YJ12 is equivalent to brahmos.

 

[asianobserve]

Ok so lets continue with that assumption. So the carrier is some 3500 km away in the sea and there is a virtual no fly zone around it courtesy of the barcaps set up by super hornets. In this the basic requirement will be to destroy this no fly zone and achieve air superiority in order to get close enough to the carrier. 4-5 squadrons of mki will be required for such an operation. Only once that is done, awacs will be able to get close enough to detect the carrier and direct the kalvari already lurking in the area towards the exact carrier location

The perimeter defense of CBG is handled by satellites, Hawkeye AWACS and even Poseidon. Once the trip wires are hit, the CBG will focus on it and vector fighter shield if necessary (if threat is aerial or surface ship) or anti-submarine assets if threat is submarine.

The CBG alone from the carrier itself and escort ships has very powerful radars, EW systems, anti-IR defenses.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Ok so lets continue with that assumption. So the carrier is some 3500 km away in the sea and there is a virtual no fly zone around it courtesy of the barcaps set up by super hornets. In this the basic requirement will be to destroy this no fly zone and achieve air superiority in order to get close enough to the carrier. 4-5 squadrons of mki will be required for such an operation. Only once that is done, awacs will be able to get close enough to detect the carrier and direct the kalvari already lurking in the area towards the exact carrier location

The thing is Su-30 combat radius is roughly 1300 km so they can't even come close to do anything to that no fly zone. Furthermore, the no fly zone is not only set up by the F-18 and F-35 but also by the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke follow the carrier with their SM-2 and SM-6

 

[Defcon 1]

The thing is Su-30 combat radius is roughly 1300 km so they can't even come close to do anything to that no fly zone. Furthermore, the no fly zone is not only set up by the F-18 and F-35 but also by the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke follow the carrier with their SM-2 and SM-6

They don't need to come close to the carrier. What I am saying is that to maintain the no fly zone of 3500 km, the hornets need to come to at least 200 km close to the shore, i.e. about at 3300 km away from the carrier otherwise the no fly zone simply cannot be enforced. Now I see that we had included the range of cruise missiles in the previous discussion and such a huge no fly zone simply cannot be maintained. So lets correct it shall we?

Super hornet radius is 1885 km + add the range of AMRAAM which gives us approx 2000 km radius of no fly zone. So to enforce it, SH must come upto a distance of 200 km from shore or 1800 km away from the carrier. That is where the MKIs will pick them up. If Hornets won't travel such a long distance, then it simply means that 2000 km of no fly zone does not exist since AWACS would still be able to fly in that area with impunity. And you are adding other assets like the Burke, they will face the same problem, in order to realistically target MKIs at 200 km away from shore, they need to be at most 450 km away from the shore which will again bring them in range of coastal defence Brahmos batteries, not to mention, IN surface ships as well.

The simple fact is, American CBG strategy only works where air-superiority by American carrier fighters is assured. When fighting large countries like India, it simply cannot be, and hence the carrier can be targeted. If you have read some articles on how the chinese aim to take down americans in south China see, they are betting on their 5th gen fighters to achieve air superiority against the F35C.

 

[Defcon 1]

The perimeter defense of CBG is handled by satellites, Hawkeye AWACS and even Poseidon. Once the trip wires are hit, the CBG will focus on it and vector fighter shield if necessary (if threat is aerial or surface ship) or anti-submarine assets if threat is submarine.

The CBG alone from the carrier itself and escort ships has very powerful radars, EW systems, anti-IR defenses.

Read my previous post to @StealthFlanker

 

[fire starter]

The thing is Su-30 combat radius is roughly 1300 km so they can't even come close to do anything to that no fly zone. Furthermore, the no fly zone is not only set up by the F-18 and F-35 but also by the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke follow the carrier with their SM-2 and SM-6

no American carrier group can come close to Indian coast bcz our coast is surrounded by batteries of brahmos. America should know that their misadventure like 1971 will not work and they will be decimated.

 

[asianobserve]

What most people don't understand is that a CBG is not an isolated entity and is not only reliant on its own sensors, fighters and AWACS. In any deployment 1 its is always preceded and covered by sayellites and land-based aircrafts.

A CBG before it sails already has advance intel on possible threats and targets. These possible threats and targets as well as emerging threats will be the focus of constant monitoring by satellites and land-based assets for the entire mission of CBG.

And if there is a high likelihood of action the US military will first disable eneny radar sites that might threaten CBGs.

But why are we talking about USN CBG versus India? Do you seriously think that US and India will have a war?

 

[abhay rajput]

What most people don't understand is that a CBG is not an isolated entity and is not only reliant on its own sensors, fighters and AWACS. In any deployment 1 its is always preceded and covered by sayellites and land-based aircrafts.

A CBG before it sails already has advance intel on possible threats and targets. These possible threats and targets as well as emerging threats will be the focus of constant monitoring by satellites and land-based assets for the entire mission of CBG.

And if there is a high likelihood of action the US military will first disable eneny radar sites that might threaten CBGs.

But why are we talking about USN CBG versus India? Do you seriously think that US and India will have a war?

Forget about India, what about China . I heard that they have made ballistic missile to hit American carriers. Ofcourse accuracy is the problem but if you are firing 100s of missiles then it isn't.. carrier works only against smaller country. It will never work against China or Russia until USA have lasers... Finding Carrier is also quite easy if you are Russia/China. Both of them have variety and huge numbers of missiles to hit carriers. Frankly I don't think that Americans is gonna go war against Russia not even small skirmishes. With China things are a little bit different but still I don't think Americans will try there luck with China as things can get out of hand very quickly... Most probably carriers are for NK, middle East etc

 

[IndianHawk]

What underlying tech that you're sure off..
You do know abt peregrine, right?

Lockheed Martin may have adopted some form of boost-coast-boost configuration for the AIM-260 motor, possibly with a higher-energy propellant than previous generations of solid motors. Even so, it remains questionable whether this would provide a similar overall performance to a Meteor-class missile

This is from mouth of USAF personal they know it won't match meteor. But they are going for it as it will be much cheaper for a huge fleet and good enough for now.