F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[Bleh]

That what you like to think, but reality is different, if post-stall maneuver was completely useless, they wouldn't have developed it.
As for your example of F-18 SH beaten in WVR exercise: it always good to remember Rafale was beaten by F-4, Eurofighter was beaten by F-16, and F-22 was beaten by T-38. As a matter of fact, in WVR, anyone can defeat anyone.

A few freak cases don't set the norm... In 4 out of 5 cases, F-16 can shoot down Mig-21 with ease.

That is your feeling talking, if you actually measure the time they can complete a turn from the video, you will see that their turn rate isn't really that different. Certainly nowhere enough for one of them to achieve certain kill against the other in close combat, especially with the improvement of HOBS missiles.

In WVR, F-35 still have a unique advantage that Rafale doesn't have.
For example: F-35 will have DIRCM, which mean it can nullify IIR missiles whereas Rafale will have to try to evade them because flares are pretty much useless against IIR missiles

I frankly don't know enough about this to comment, but from the earlier posts i've read, everyone in this thread is havily biased towards one side IMO. So, don't mind if i don't take your word for it...

In near future active protection & jammer/countermeasure tech could catch-up to nullify most BVR & WVR missiles, in most good aircraft's (even tanks & gunships), not just F-35.

We know the missile can hit maneuvering dummy targets & vintage planes of destitute nations.
But we don't really know whether after the locking & firing the missile would actually be able to shoot down a top quality enemy plane in real combat situation.

 

[StealthFlanker]

A few freak cases don't set the norm... In 4 out of 5 cases, F-16 can shoot down Mig-21 with ease.

The point is with the advance of modern HOBS missiles, getting in WVR is like getting in a knife fight in phone booth, the likely case both will die

One Typhoon pilot described Gripen as ‘easy meat’, how would Gripen perform in BFM against the following types? Typhoon, Rafale, Hornet, MiG-29 and F-22.

“Again no direct comparison but as I said above, the one with the best information wins the fight. It’s been a fact since world war one and still is. The only difference is how the information is gathered. In the old days looking with your eyes, today and in the future sensors and fusion of sensor data. The classic BFM I would say is no more and if you try it you die. In a world of high of boresight missiles, such as IRIS-T, data-link cueing and helmet mounted displays the within visual range fight looks more and more like a mini-BVR fight.”

https://hushkit.net/2019/03/18/interview-with-a-gripen-pilot/

I frankly don't know enough about this to comment, but from the earlier posts i've read, everyone in this thread is havily biased towards one side IMO. So, don't mind if i don't take your word for it...

You don't have to, there are dozens of available documents about IIR missiles and sensor on the internet, you just have to search
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/2017/02/22/electro-optical-systems/
https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1826/6935/PhDThesisFinalRef.pdf?sequence=1

In near future active protection & jammer/countermeasure tech could catch-up to nullify most BVR & WVR missiles, in most good aircraft's (even tanks & gunships), not just F-35

It is certainly a continuous aim race where F-35 will have an advantage of higher funding
WVR will soon die out once they put HEL on fighter

 

[asianobserve]

A few freak cases don't set the norm... In 4 out of 5 cases, F-16 can shoot down Mig-21 with ease.

I frankly don't know enough about this to comment, but from the earlier posts i've read, everyone in this thread is havily biased towards one side IMO. So, don't mind if i don't take your word for it...

In near future active protection & jammer/countermeasure tech could catch-up to nullify most BVR & WVR missiles, in most good aircraft's (even tanks & gunships), not just F-35.

We know the missile can hit maneuvering dummy targets & vintage planes of destitute nations.
But we don't really know whether after the locking & firing the missile would actually be able to shoot down a top quality enemy plane in real combat situation.

USAF and NATO are far ahead in the preparations for this kind of big power air combat:

Red Flag 2019: First Great Power Air War Test In Years

In that Red Flag exercise completed last month, 2,900 personnel from 39 separate units participated in 26 distinct missions and flew

95 aircraft from the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, Royal Air Force and Royal Australian Air Force. Everthing gleaned from intelligence about China and Russian forces was thrown at the allied pilots.

Over the years Red Flag has expanded from its original focus on combat survivability and the air-to-air mission, Novotny notes, to incorporate training in all of the Air Forces five core functions – air superiority, air-to-ground strike, ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance), command-and-control (C2), and personnel rescue and recovery.All of those missions are conducted against a dedicated sparring partner in the Aggressors, unrivaled experts in enemy weapons systems and tactics, and train so much in force-on-force exercises that they punch well above their weight in the air.

The latest exercise also incorporated some of the political ambiguity, Identify Friend or Foe (IFF) challenges, and proxy war protocols that Air Force pilots have encountered in Syria, where they share the battlespace with Syrian, Iranian, Turkish, Israeli and Russian forces, as well as allied and adversarial paramilitaries and non-state actors.

“

On top of those ‘rules of engagement’ challenges, Blue Forces at Red Flag are contested in the air, subject to Aggressor missile strikes on their operating and logistics bases, and hit with cyberattacks on their command-and-control and space systems designed to disrupt satellite communications and GPS [Global Positioning System] targeting,” said Novotny, who notes that the 64th Aggressor Squadron is flying double the number of sorties it logged just last year. “So the Aggressors are a marquee feature at Red Flag, and their mission of knowing, teaching and replicating enemy capabilities is critical to what we do.”

The last mission of the 19-1 Red Flag was an advanced suppression of enemy air defenses at night. By the third week, the Blue Force had solved the puzzle of weapons system integration, designing a strike force echelon able to exploit the strengths and mask the weaknesses of each individual aircraft.

The biggest learning curve in that process was understanding how fifth generation aircraft can use their unmatched stealth, speed and sensor capabilities to increase the effectiveness and survivability of the entire strike package.

“

The F-22s and F-35s were able to use our stealth and speed to get closer to the threats and soften them up, collect a lot of information about the battlespace, and then use the F-35’s data link in particular to communicate that picture to the rest of the strike package so that fourth generation aircraft like the F-15s and F-16s could attack those targets with their missiles and bombs,” said Lt. Col. Yosef Morris, commander of the 4th Fighter Squadron of F-35s. Xxx

The combat edge of stealthy fifth-gen aircraft in high-intensity air combat, and their force multiplying effect when carefully integrated in a “high-low” mix with fourth generation fighters that may have superior endurance and weapons carrying capacity, is one of the prime lessons of recent Red Flag exercises. In last year’s simulations, F-35s have reportedly achieved a kill ratio against Aggressors as high as 15 to 1.

“The F-22 and F-35 have complicated our job here at Red Flag, because their speed, stealth and sensor fusion capabilities make it difficult for our Aggressors to really challenge and push them,” said Brig. Gen. Novotny. Nellis officials are working hard to modernize the air defense systems and Aggressor Squadron capabilities at Red Flag so they can keep pace, he noted, but it’s not a fair fight. “I’m an F-15 pilot with over 3,000 hours in the air, so I’m pretty cocky about my capabilities, but I sure wouldn’t want to go to war against a high-end threat without those fifth generation aircraft flying alongside.”

https://breakingdefense.com/2019/03/red-flag-2019-first-great-power-air-war-test-in-years/

 

[asianobserve]

Red Flag is the most realistic air combat exercise in the World short of a real war. And here's another interesting article that shows some of the capabilities of F-35, which being relatively new is still being discovered by tacticians.

Single F-35 'kills' dozens of enemy fighters in AirWar live combat 'scenario'

As 60 enemy fighters closed in on a U.S. Air Force 4th Generation fighter aircraft, blinding the jet with electronic warfare attacks, an experienced pilot faced unseen life-threatening attackers closing in -- during an air-combat Red Flag exercise closely replicating actual warfare scenarios.

Yet, in a life-saving flash, the endangered 4th pilot was told to “turn around” by an F-35 operating in the vicinity who radioed an instant warning. The 5th-Gen, multi-role stealth fighter then used its long-range sensors and weapons to “kill” the enemy aircraft, according to an Air Force news report.

Describing Red Flag weapons engagements, Lockheed F-35 pilot Billie Flynn said F-35s could fire Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles without being seen by adversaries -

operating at the margins of detectability.

"

We could launch and leave," Flynn explained.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...y-fighters-in-airwar-live-combat-scenario.amp

 

[Immanuel]

Mainly because Trump is pro Boeing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...-and-donald-trump-run-deep-1476745-2019-03-13

Also giving 1 company (Lockheed Martin) a virtual (actual) monopoly on 5th generation fighters (F 35) is a very stupid idea. You lose all leverage and negotiation ability. These two factors are influencing the buys.

Friend , I am both pro F 35 and pro Rafale. Rafale would kick the snot out of F 15X but in the future Su 57 will be bought by India.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter

Well to underestimate any modern upgraded F-15 in A2A is foolish to say the least, it remains the OG of the block with an experienced Israeli pilot, my money would be on the F-15X. Not only can it carry a whopping 12+ number of A2A missiles already now, the F-15X with new missile racks could carry upto A2A 22 missiles in a single sortie or 8 A2A missiles with 7-1000kg bombs, this is serious capability. Imagine one with 22 I-Derby-ERs or even Meteors, I don't see who could actually beat it easily.

It can deploy virtually every missile, bomb in Israeli, US inventory. It has shot down satellites. It has a stellar A2A combat record. With AESA based upgrades to radar and other avionics, some RCS reduction optimization, stealth pods etc, large panel displayed, advanced sensor fusion etc.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter

Also the airframe will have 20000hrs of life, one word comes to mind, undefeated workhorse. This thing will be serving for another 60 years if they pull this off. Besides any new builds will receive MLU as well. They will keep it at the cutting edge as much as they can.

 

[asianobserve]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter

Well to underestimate any modern upgraded F-15 in A2A is foolish to say the least, it remains the OG of the block with an experienced Israeli pilot, my money would be on the F-15X. Not only can it carry a whopping 12+ number of A2A missiles already now, the F-15X with new missile racks could carry upto A2A 22 missiles in a single sortie or 8 A2A missiles with 7-1000kg bombs, this is serious capability. Imagine one with 22 I-Derby-ERs or even Meteors, I don't see who could actually beat it easily.

It can deploy virtually every missile, bomb in Israeli, US inventory. It has shot down satellites. It has a stellar A2A combat record. With AESA based upgrades to radar and other avionics, some RCS reduction optimization, stealth pods etc, large panel displayed, advanced sensor fusion etc.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...15x-boeings-f-15c-d-eagle-replacement-fighter

Also the airframe will have 20000hrs of life, one word comes to mind, undefeated workhorse. This thing will be serving for another 60 years if they pull this off. Besides any new builds will receive MLU as well. They will keep it at the cutting edge as much as they can.

But as the Red Flag lessons shows, in air wars against a major air force like China with integrated AD you need stealth fighter to have a decisive advantage. Non-stealthy fighters will have a hard time penetrating newer AD systems.

 

[Immanuel]

But as the Red Flag lessons shows, in air wars against a major air force like China with integrated AD you need stealth fighter to have a decisive advantage. Non-stealthy fighters will have a hard time penetrating newer AD systems.

Well true to some extent but with 5th gen leading the initial battle and using a advanced data links, EW and jamming would allow 4.5 gen aircraft to operate with very low signatures. The F-15 in beast mode with over 12-22 missiles in formidable in any battlefield, specially working in a network. Heck a well placed pop up group of a couple of such F-15X when used in right tactics could shoot down an entire squadron. In the battlefield of today one can easily overwhelm a radar picture such that a mix of drones, decoy missiles, towed decoys, terrain masking, fighters high, medium and low can easily overwhelm an enemy. Combine that with long range awacs, long range datalinking, EW, the average Chink with already very small eyes will only get further confused. Sorry but the PLAAF or most AFs would not cope well with such tactics.

Plus not to forget the ability to drop cans and cans and more cans of whoop ass.

 

[asianobserve]

A good read on F-35, the capabilities and advantages it brings to future air combat:

F-35 and the Next Gen Battlespace

In this sense, it is no different to the F-35 JSF program. Even now, critics and lobbyists still default to comparisons with the F-22 Raptor, and describe the F-35 in terms of “troubled” or “controversial”, rather than transformational and now, combat proven. They ignore the F-35’s debut at the world’s most complex large-scale training event – Red Flag – where it reportedly achieved an unprecedented twenty-to-one kill ratio.

DISTRIBUTING LETHALITY

The F-35’s key contribution to a joint force is its prolific ability to share information and to profoundly accelerate the combat decision-making processes, especially targeting. Targeting is the golden thread which integrates the effort to combine the intelligence, political, legal, environmental, technological, conceptual and moral factors into the way western democracies plan and execute engagements. It enables a sophisticated, rules-based, human interaction with warfare, and accelerates the decision-making process to compensate for those adversaries who do not play by our rules. It allows us to do th

Despite lacking the power and thoroughbred performance of its stable-mate in a pure air-to-air combat role, the F-35’s ability to share information is far greater than the F-22, making it a more lethal joint partner in this new environment.

PROJECTING FUTURE STATUS

It allows you to see and make sense of the bigger picture, the indicators and warnings that predict an adversary’s command intent, thereby allowing you to become the first decider.

One such trade-off was the rapid development of helmet-mounted display systems to augment and ultimately replace aircraft head-up displays (HUD), allowing the weapons rather than the platforms to do the hard manoeuvring in an air combat ‘dogfight’ to the point where any target seen or sensed by the pilot could be attacked regardless of where the aircraft was heading.

Meanwhile, essential environmental and target information projected directly on to the visor of the helmet provides constant visual and aural indicators and warnings to the pilot about what is happening and what is likely to happen, rather than providing the information through multiple specialist displays positioned around a traditional cockpit.

To that end, the F-35 has become the first modern tactical fighter jet to fly without the need for a HUD, because its helmet mounted display (HMD) provides the pilot with unrivalled levels of SA fed by 360-degree coverage from multiple fused sensors, even allowing the pilot to visualise the battlespace beneath his or her feet through the aircraft’s floor.

UNSEEN ATTACKERS

Watts observed that, “Air combat experience going at least back to World War II suggests that surprise in the form of the unseen attacker has been pivotal in three-quarters or more of the kills…if some 80 per cent of the losses have resulted from aircrews being unaware that they were under attack until they either were hit or did not have time to react effectively, then a relative deficit of situation awareness has been the root-cause of the majority of losses in actual air-to-air combat.”

https://sldinfo.com/2019/02/the-f-35-and-the-next-gen-battlespace/

 

[BON PLAN]

I don't think you should disqualify a company from participating in future big defense projects because it won previous defense projects. To me it's clear that LM's YF-22 was the better over-all fighter against Northrop Grumman's YF-23. Then LM's X-35 was better than Boeing's X-32. I mean just look at the pictures of X-32, it looks fugly!

Besides, Boeing has a lot of other defense contracts from satellites, rockets, autonomous submarines, jet trainers, helicopters, and not to mention Boeing very healthy commercial aviation division. SO Boeing will be fine. Even Northrop Grumman is fine.

YF22 won against YF23 because it was a more conventionnal plane (seemed less risky). YF22 was a little bit more agile, YF23 was more ranged and can fly at higher mach without PC. The choice was very narrowed.

between X32 and X35, there was no match : the Boeing design was immature (they added a tail at the end...)

=> LM won the last 2 US fighters. I'm afraid it's the end for Boeing ...

 

[asianobserve]

Well true to some extent but with 5th gen leading the initial battle and using a advanced data links, EW and jamming would allow 4.5 gen aircraft to operate with very low signatures. The F-15 in beast mode with over 12-22 missiles in formidable in any battlefield, specially working in a network. Heck a well placed pop up group of a couple of such F-15X when used in right tactics could shoot down an entire squadron. In the battlefield of today one can easily overwhelm a radar picture such that a mix of drones, decoy missiles, towed decoys, terrain masking, fighters high, medium and low can easily overwhelm an enemy. Combine that with long range awacs, long range datalinking, EW, the average Chink with already very small eyes will only get further confused. Sorry but the PLAAF or most AFs would not cope well with such tactics.

Plus not to forget the ability to drop cans and cans and more cans of whoop ass.

Rule 1 in wars should be never understimate your opponent. The Chinese may not have the air combat experience of Americans, Russia, European powers, or even India and Pakistan, but it's size and increasingly sophisticated mix of Russian and self-produced AD systems and fighters should not be understimated.

 

[asianobserve]

YF22 won against YF23 because it was a more conventionnal plane (seemed less risky). YF22 was a little bit more agile, YF23 was more ranged and can fly at higher mach without PC. The choice was very narrowed.

While YF-23 excelled in some parameters like stealth it was overall an inferior aircraft compared to YF-22.

between X32 and X35, there was no match : the Boeing design was immature (they added a tail at the end...)

=> LM won the last 2 US fighters. I'm afraid it's the end for Boeing ...

You must be drunk my friend.

If Dassault only had USD775Million net income last year and it still is a healthy company, how much more Boeing that had USD10Billion net income last year?

In comparison to Boeing, LM only had USD5.8Billion net income in 2018.

Northrop Grumman's net income for 2018 on the other hand was USD2Billion. More than double the net income of Dassault.

 

[BON PLAN]

While YF-23 excelled in some parameters like stealth it was overall an inferior aircraft compared to YF-22.



You must be drunk my friend.

If Dassault only had USD775Million net income last year and it still is a healthy company, how much more Boeing that had USD10Billion net income last year?

In comparison to Boeing, LM only had USD5.8Billion net income in 2018.

Northrop Grumman's net income for 2018 on the other hand was USD2Billion. More than double the net income of Dassault.

No my dear, I'm not sick or drunck.
If the developpment of a world class fighter was only a question of money, Dassault and SAAB would have disapearred since years.
Boeing is highly skilled in liners (but MAX 8 ....) but loose its skill in fighter design.

 

[asianobserve]

No my dear, I'm not sick or drunck.
If the developpment of a world class fighter was only a question of money, Dassault and SAAB would have disapearred since years.
Boeing is highly skilled in liners (but MAX 8 ....) but loose its skill in fighter design.

Boeing just won the T-X jet trainer concept. This is a big program with a projected 350 orders from US alone. And Boeing is positioning early for US Navy's 6th gen fighter (Boeing being a traditional naval aviation supplier).

 

[Immanuel]

Rule 1 in wars should be never understimate your opponent. The Chinese may not have the air combat experience of Americans, Russia, European powers, or even India and Pakistan, but it's size and increasingly sophisticated mix of Russian and self-produced AD systems and fighters should not be understimated.

I doubt anybody including the USAF or IAF underestimate the Chinese, actually F-15X is just a logical step towards improving a proven platform even further while leveraging the 5th F-35/F-222 battle space network abilities. Working in hunter killer swarms, F-35s will allow the F-15X to be that much more effective. Can't really mess with a missile truck of this nature, payload + proven platform (with more or less stable recurring costs + well honed tactics). The Chinese don't have the same level of training (lets be real). The F-15X being a A2A missile truck also points to a USAF strategy against Chinese hordes of 3-4th gen fighters.

 

[Immanuel]

No my dear, I'm not sick or drunck.
If the developpment of a world class fighter was only a question of money, Dassault and SAAB would have disapearred since years.
Boeing is highly skilled in liners (but MAX 8 ....) but loose its skill in fighter design.

Boeing has a long history of innovation and I doubt there will be any diluation of skill. What the world knows of is F-35, F-22s etc. What no body really knows about is the un-named black projects that LM at Skunkworks and Boeing at Phantom works are upto.

The US mil complex is perhaps decades ahead on several technologies. These unnamed projects have been funded and running for several generations with billions in unmarked spending. Everything from flying saucers to other key technologies have been worked on and perhaps established.

To say such a behemoth of industry or technology will somehow loose skill is laughable.

The 737-8 Max issue is both the fault of Boeing and FAA which in this case didn't enforce the need for an extensive re-certification process.

 

[BON PLAN]

Another ignorant article. The US Navy Navy is not favoring the F-35. Remember that there are 317 legacy Hornets and 500 Super Hornets. Legacy Hornets are retiring soon while the Super Hornets are still relatively brand new aircraft and thus will remain in service for decades more. It means that the F-35s will only replace the legacy Hornets while the Super Hornets need to be updated to remain competitive at a time when China is already fielding 5th gen J-20 in the Pacific, the theater where Super Hornets will main operate from.

In other words, these upgrades to Super Hornets fleet are necessary.

NO.
Not only upgraded, but USN add some more. Only 78...

https://defence-blog.com/news/u-s-n...ng-for-78-f-a-18-block-iii-super-hornets.html

 

[BON PLAN]

The 737-8 Max issue is both the fault of Boeing and FAA which in this case didn't enforce the need for an extensive re-certification process.

I don't know. US sources are saying "several weeks".... what does it mean? 3 weeks? 30 weeks?

 

[BON PLAN]

That is your feeling talking, if you actually measure the time they can complete a turn from the video, you will see that their turn rate isn't really that different. Certainly nowhere enough for one of them to achieve certain kill against the other in close combat, especially with the improvement of HOBS missiles

In your video from 0:40-0:47, Rafale turn 180 degrees =>average to 25.7 degrees/second

From 0:47-0:57, Rafale turn 180 degrees => average to 18 degrees/second

F-35 completed horizontal 180 degrees turn between 2:46-2:53 average out to 25.7 degrees/second

In WVR, F-35 still have a unique advantage that Rafale doesn't have.
For example: F-35 will have DIRCM, which mean it can nullify IIR missiles whereas Rafale will have to try to evade them because flares are pretty much useless against IIR missiles

If F35 "will have", why another plane "will not have"? DIRCM is on track for Rafale F4.

 

[BON PLAN]

It is certainly a continuous aim race where F-35 will have an advantage of higher funding
WVR will soon die out once they put HEL on fighter

That means for F35 : no more VSTOL variant. A far reduce range for A & C variant.

And what about F22?

What about bad weather conditions?

 

[StealthFlanker]

If F35 "will have", why another plane "will not have"? DIRCM is on track for Rafale F4.

No it isn't, Rafale F4 plan doesn't include DIRCM, why do you lie?

F-35 will have DIRCM because it is in the block plan, and already being funded

Northrop Grumman has begun company-funded development of a Directed Infrared Countermeasures (Dircm) system for fast jets, anticipating a requirement to protect the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter from heat-seeking air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles.

“We believe the requirement is there, and coming quickly, and that the first opportunity will be on the F-35,” says Jeff Palombo, senior vice president and general manager of Northrop’s land and self-protection systems division.

Northrop plans to begin testing a prototype of the Threat Nullification Defensive Resource (ThNDR) system in its system-integration laboratory by year’s end, he revealed at a briefing in Washington Sept. 12

What about bad weather conditions?

Operate at higher altitude then