F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

[StealthFlanker]

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...21-bison-versus-pakistani-f-16-viper-bullshit
Enough With The Indian Mig-21 Bison Versus Pakistani F-16 Viper Bullshit
I have never seen such a large and diverse mess of misinformation spouted and parroted with wild abandon about a military skirmish than what has come out of the short spate of Pakistani-Indian air battles that occurred in late February. But one aspect of those operations, in particular, has been so ridiculously mischaracterized by the media, so-called analysts, and the public in general, that the majority of narratives surrounding it have to be called out for what they are—total bullshit.

During a Pakistani Air Force counterstrike operation on February 27th, one that came in response to India's air raid into their territory on February 26th, an Indian MiG-21 Bison was shot down and its pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, captured. He was returned to India in remarkably good shape not long after. Claims that India shot down a Pakistani F-16 during that same incident quickly followed.

What has come as a result of all this has been a full-on information assault of laughably childish narratives that lack any understanding of modern air combat and appear to be largely driven by blind nationalism, political spin, or straight-up stupidity, not reality or fact.

India now officially claims that they shot down a Pakistani F-16 and that Wing Commander Varthaman was the one who did it just before he himself got shot down. I have to make clear that we have zero evidence that a Pakistani F-16 was lost in combat. None. That does not mean it didn't happen, it just means that at this time we have no reason to believe it beyond taking India's word for it.

The videos and images being passed around online that supposedly support the downed F-16 claim are pure misinformation made up of repackaged old media from past incidents or blatant mistruths peddled by "open source intelligence" social media congregators and nationalist pundit accounts supporting the Indian side of the long and sad standoff between the two nuclear-armed neighbors.

Maybe the most notorious piece of media being used to push the F-16 shoot down narrative is a set of pictures of aircraft wreckage showing what some claim is the outer casing of a GE-F110 turbofan engine. There are many issues with the photos to begin with—Bellingcat even did a big and totally unnecessary write up on it—but one needs to look no further than the simple fact that Pakistan has never operated a single F-16A/B/C/D with a General Electric engine. All of the country's F-16s have run F100 series Pratt & Whitney engines since Pakistan first acquired the type decades ago.

So, case closed when it comes to one of the most prolific examples of the garbage mound of 'evidence' swirling around the incident. Once again, throngs of people, including major news outlets from around the globe, arguing about a subject they know nothing about.

But the question of if a seemingly archaic MiG-21 shot down a Pakistani F-16 really isn't the issue here. The problem is that so many have said that such a loss would have been near impossible or a sign of some sort of super embarrassing blunder by an incompetent Pakistani Air Force, or even that the F-16's value and capabilities as a modern combat aircraft should be discounted due to the purported loss. This is all absolute and total swill.

Here's why:

Modern air combat is not a Hollywood blockbuster movie or an arcade game folks! There are so many factors that go into every single air-to-air engagement—even those that occur in a relatively sterile vacuum for training—that acting as if the loss of a more modern and capable airframe to an older and less capable one is some sort of unheard of and damning evidence as to the latter's relevance and effectiveness on the modern battlefield is absolutely inaccurate.

First off, the MiG-21 Bison that India flies, with well over 100 operational in its inventory, is not the 'Fishbed' of the Cold War era. The aircraft was updated with 4th generation fighter avionics and sensors in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
This upgrade included a glass cockpit, radar warning receiver, and a helmet mounted cueing system for firing the high off-boresight R-73 short-range air-to-air missile. Although it isn't disclosed, it seems to include a data-link terminal, as well.

A Phazatron Kopyo ("Spear") lightweight multi-mode radar was installed in the jet's nosecone that also allowed it to employ the R-77 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. That upgraded radar may also have received certain tweaks that have improved its performance or it may have been replaced with an even more capable foreign radar set altogether. Other additions included a bubble canopy with far superior visibility compared to the MiG-21's original smaller and more densely framed one. Expansive countermeasures dispensers were installed as well.

With the ability to carry smarter weapons, the Bison also received a very important piece of equipment from Israel, the bolt-on Elta-8222 self-protection electronic warfare pod. This was cutting edge tech in the early 2000s, but even today it is still amazingly formidable and is capable of wreaking absolute havoc on enemy radar systems—especially mechanically-scanned array fire control radars found on most 4th generation fighters.
All this adds up to a potent little package for not a lot of money and the MiG-21 already sports certain advantages like small radar and visual signatures from certain aspects, as well as the ability to make hard instantaneous turns and fast supersonic dashes. But when you pair the Bison package with creative tactics and networking, as well as a host of other aircraft and an experienced pilot, it becomes far more lethal than the sum of its parts.

You don't have to take Tyler Rogoway's word for this. The USAF found this out the hard way during one of the most beneficial learning moments in modern air combat training history. Cope India 2004 saw American F-15Cs paired off against the pointy-end of India's wildly diverse Air Force. Although India's Su-30Ks were close to the best thing Russia had to export at the time, and their French-built Mirage 2000s were certainly not to be discounted, the most surprising star of the exercise was the insidious little Bison.

During the air combat training drills, Indian Air Force Su-30Ks would use their powerful radars to build-up situational awareness and then data-link their 'picture' to other aircraft in the airborne force, which seemed to include the upgraded MiG-21s. Either way, the Su-30 pilots could also use radio communications to inform the Bisons of threats and tactical opportunities. The Bison pilots, running with their radars off and emitting few to no electronic emissions that could alert the F-15 crews as to their whereabouts, would use this situational information to their advantage.
With their Elta-8222 jamming pods fired up and wreaking havoc on the F-15C's legendarily powerful AN/APG-63 radar, combined with their already small radar and visual signature, the Bisons would come screaming in out of nowhere to within visual range of the Eagles. They would proceed to shoot the F-15s in the face with their infrared-guided R-73 missiles before blasting by. And even if the Eagles noticed the Bisons at the last moment, the Bison pilots could negate the raw performance of the hulking F-15s by employing the 'fire and forget' R-73 nearly 90 degrees of the centerline of their noses using their helmet-mounted targeting system.
To put it metaphorically, the Bison wasn't a cavalry soldier or a scout, it was a ninja.
Overall, during that historic 2004 Cope India exercise, F-15 pilots found themselves having to react to rapidly changing tactics as the Indian airborne force constantly morphed their playbook in reaction to the Eagles' moves and entering into visual fights just after picking up the Indian fighters that were already right on top of them on radar. By then the Indians were also locked on, as well.

It was a notoriously brutal, but highly beneficial learning experience for the Air Force. And yes, rules of engagement for the exercise were set purposely to fulfill certain training goals and push the Eagle force hard. This included limiting the F-15s from firing their simulated AIM-120 AMRAAMs in active mode radar homing mode and only engaging at 20 miles or less with those missiles in their degraded state.

The Eagles were also outnumbered—at times as much as three to one—but that wasn't entirely uncommon for the F-15C/D force. The U.S. flying contingent was also made up of fleet pilots from an active squadron flying against a composite force of India's most advanced aviators. But most of all, the Americans lacked their E-3 Sentry Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS)—a staple of USAF air combat doctrine that traditionally enhanced the F-15's situational awareness and survivability dramatically by acting as their high-powered eyes and ears on high.

 

[asianobserve]

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...21-bison-versus-pakistani-f-16-viper-bullshit
Enough With The Indian Mig-21 Bison Versus Pakistani F-16 Viper Bullshit
I have never seen such a large and diverse mess of misinformation spouted and parroted with wild abandon about a military skirmish than what has come out of the short spate of Pakistani-Indian air battles that occurred in late February. But one aspect of those operations, in particular, has been so ridiculously mischaracterized by the media, so-called analysts, and the public in general, that the majority of narratives surrounding it have to be called out for what they are—total bullshit.

During a Pakistani Air Force counterstrike operation on February 27th, one that came in response to India's air raid into their territory on February 26th, an Indian MiG-21 Bison was shot down and its pilot, Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman, captured. He was returned to India in remarkably good shape not long after. Claims that India shot down a Pakistani F-16 during that same incident quickly followed.

What has come as a result of all this has been a full-on information assault of laughably childish narratives that lack any understanding of modern air combat and appear to be largely driven by blind nationalism, political spin, or straight-up stupidity, not reality or fact.

India now officially claims that they shot down a Pakistani F-16 and that Wing Commander Varthaman was the one who did it just before he himself got shot down. I have to make clear that we have zero evidence that a Pakistani F-16 was lost in combat. None. That does not mean it didn't happen, it just means that at this time we have no reason to believe it beyond taking India's word for it.

The videos and images being passed around online that supposedly support the downed F-16 claim are pure misinformation made up of repackaged old media from past incidents or blatant mistruths peddled by "open source intelligence" social media congregators and nationalist pundit accounts supporting the Indian side of the long and sad standoff between the two nuclear-armed neighbors.

Maybe the most notorious piece of media being used to push the F-16 shoot down narrative is a set of pictures of aircraft wreckage showing what some claim is the outer casing of a GE-F110 turbofan engine. There are many issues with the photos to begin with—Bellingcat even did a big and totally unnecessary write up on it—but one needs to look no further than the simple fact that Pakistan has never operated a single F-16A/B/C/D with a General Electric engine. All of the country's F-16s have run F100 series Pratt & Whitney engines since Pakistan first acquired the type decades ago.

So, case closed when it comes to one of the most prolific examples of the garbage mound of 'evidence' swirling around the incident. Once again, throngs of people, including major news outlets from around the globe, arguing about a subject they know nothing about.

But the question of if a seemingly archaic MiG-21 shot down a Pakistani F-16 really isn't the issue here. The problem is that so many have said that such a loss would have been near impossible or a sign of some sort of super embarrassing blunder by an incompetent Pakistani Air Force, or even that the F-16's value and capabilities as a modern combat aircraft should be discounted due to the purported loss. This is all absolute and total swill.

Here's why:

Modern air combat is not a Hollywood blockbuster movie or an arcade game folks! There are so many factors that go into every single air-to-air engagement—even those that occur in a relatively sterile vacuum for training—that acting as if the loss of a more modern and capable airframe to an older and less capable one is some sort of unheard of and damning evidence as to the latter's relevance and effectiveness on the modern battlefield is absolutely inaccurate.

First off, the MiG-21 Bison that India flies, with well over 100 operational in its inventory, is not the 'Fishbed' of the Cold War era. The aircraft was updated with 4th generation fighter avionics and sensors in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
This upgrade included a glass cockpit, radar warning receiver, and a helmet mounted cueing system for firing the high off-boresight R-73 short-range air-to-air missile. Although it isn't disclosed, it seems to include a data-link terminal, as well.

A Phazatron Kopyo ("Spear") lightweight multi-mode radar was installed in the jet's nosecone that also allowed it to employ the R-77 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. That upgraded radar may also have received certain tweaks that have improved its performance or it may have been replaced with an even more capable foreign radar set altogether. Other additions included a bubble canopy with far superior visibility compared to the MiG-21's original smaller and more densely framed one. Expansive countermeasures dispensers were installed as well.

With the ability to carry smarter weapons, the Bison also received a very important piece of equipment from Israel, the bolt-on Elta-8222 self-protection electronic warfare pod. This was cutting edge tech in the early 2000s, but even today it is still amazingly formidable and is capable of wreaking absolute havoc on enemy radar systems—especially mechanically-scanned array fire control radars found on most 4th generation fighters.
All this adds up to a potent little package for not a lot of money and the MiG-21 already sports certain advantages like small radar and visual signatures from certain aspects, as well as the ability to make hard instantaneous turns and fast supersonic dashes. But when you pair the Bison package with creative tactics and networking, as well as a host of other aircraft and an experienced pilot, it becomes far more lethal than the sum of its parts.

You don't have to take Tyler Rogoway's word for this. The USAF found this out the hard way during one of the most beneficial learning moments in modern air combat training history. Cope India 2004 saw American F-15Cs paired off against the pointy-end of India's wildly diverse Air Force. Although India's Su-30Ks were close to the best thing Russia had to export at the time, and their French-built Mirage 2000s were certainly not to be discounted, the most surprising star of the exercise was the insidious little Bison.

During the air combat training drills, Indian Air Force Su-30Ks would use their powerful radars to build-up situational awareness and then data-link their 'picture' to other aircraft in the airborne force, which seemed to include the upgraded MiG-21s. Either way, the Su-30 pilots could also use radio communications to inform the Bisons of threats and tactical opportunities. The Bison pilots, running with their radars off and emitting few to no electronic emissions that could alert the F-15 crews as to their whereabouts, would use this situational information to their advantage.
With their Elta-8222 jamming pods fired up and wreaking havoc on the F-15C's legendarily powerful AN/APG-63 radar, combined with their already small radar and visual signature, the Bisons would come screaming in out of nowhere to within visual range of the Eagles. They would proceed to shoot the F-15s in the face with their infrared-guided R-73 missiles before blasting by. And even if the Eagles noticed the Bisons at the last moment, the Bison pilots could negate the raw performance of the hulking F-15s by employing the 'fire and forget' R-73 nearly 90 degrees of the centerline of their noses using their helmet-mounted targeting system.
To put it metaphorically, the Bison wasn't a cavalry soldier or a scout, it was a ninja.
Overall, during that historic 2004 Cope India exercise, F-15 pilots found themselves having to react to rapidly changing tactics as the Indian airborne force constantly morphed their playbook in reaction to the Eagles' moves and entering into visual fights just after picking up the Indian fighters that were already right on top of them on radar. By then the Indians were also locked on, as well.

It was a notoriously brutal, but highly beneficial learning experience for the Air Force. And yes, rules of engagement for the exercise were set purposely to fulfill certain training goals and push the Eagle force hard. This included limiting the F-15s from firing their simulated AIM-120 AMRAAMs in active mode radar homing mode and only engaging at 20 miles or less with those missiles in their degraded state.

The Eagles were also outnumbered—at times as much as three to one—but that wasn't entirely uncommon for the F-15C/D force. The U.S. flying contingent was also made up of fleet pilots from an active squadron flying against a composite force of India's most advanced aviators. But most of all, the Americans lacked their E-3 Sentry Airborne Warning And Control System (AWACS)—a staple of USAF air combat doctrine that traditionally enhanced the F-15's situational awareness and survivability dramatically by acting as their high-powered eyes and ears on high.

One thing I realized when this issue came out is at least when it comes to South Asians (both Indians and Pakistanis), in times of hyper-nationalistic feelings, objectivity flies out of the window. Their Governments are all of a sudden incapable of lying, never mind their record of years of bribery and corruption which every Indian and Pakistani complains during peacetime. It is as if their civilian government and military officials have become all of a sudden beacons of truth and are absolutely incapable of lying.

In fact they would not only swallow hook line and sinker their government's versions, but even the most outrageous versions from media and from nobodies who use doctored or misleading photos of previous crashes.

 

[StealthFlanker]

One thing I realized when this issue came out is at least when it comes to South Asians (both Indians and Pakistanis), in times of hyper-nationalistic feelings, objectivity flies out of the window. Their Governments are all of a sudden incapable of lying, never mind their record of years of bribery and corruption which every Indian and Pakistani complains during peacetime. It is as if their civilian government and military officials have become all of a sudden beacons of truth and are absolutely incapable of lying.
In fact they would not only swallow hook line and sinker their government's versions, but even the most outrageous versions from media and from nobodies who use doctored or misleading photos of previous crashes.

Totally agree, that what i find very sad, basically their confirmatory bias level gone off the chart

 

[IndiaRising]

Chinese midgets talking about bribery, corruption, and misinformation

 

[vampyrbladez]

I love Tyler Rogoway's articles on The War Zone but this piece sounds like a load of butthurt.

:biggrin2:

Specially the last paragraph!

So, to those who have been pushing totally unsubstantiated 'takes,' peddling fake evidence, spinning what little info is available for political or monetary gain, and/or making grand claims and conclusions backed by a weak knowledge base and childish assumptions about what happened in the skies near the Line of Control late last February, take your often nationalistic and deeply skewed narratives and stuff them up your tailpipes.

Lockheed can kiss their F 16's chances in MMRCA goodbye!

 

[StealthFlanker]

Chinese midgets talking about bribery, corruption, and misinformation

? what does that supposed to mean?
so for example if a person lives in Africa he will suddenly can't talk about poverty?
if a person lives in USA he suddenly can't talk about gun issue?
that is absolute nonsense, just because there is bribery, corruption, and misinformation in China doesn't mean suddenly everywhere else in the world, there is no corruption and misinformation.

 

[asianobserve]

? what does that supposed to mean?
so for example if a person lives in Africa he will suddenly can't talk about poverty?
if a person lives in USA he suddenly can't talk about gun issue?
that is absolute nonsense, just because there is bribery, corruption, and misinformation in China doesn't mean suddenly everywhere else in the world, there is no corruption and misinformation.

It's called flame baiting and I have been getting a lot of this kind of posts for expressing my reservations about the F-16 shot down claim due to lack of clear evidence (although I assured everybody here that I do believe that all modern fighters can be shot down by older gen fighters given the right tactics, luck and stupidity on the pilot of the newer fighter) and thus I would totally believe it if there is already clear evidence available. But so long as I continue to maintain that I'm not convinced by the IAF's claim it's either I am Chinese or a Pakistani-lover. I guess it makes it easier for them to accept my position....

 

[IndiaRising]

I love Tyler Rogoway's articles on The War Zone but this piece sounds like a load of butthurt.

:biggrin2:

Specially the last paragraph!





Lockheed can kiss their F 16's chances in MMRCA goodbye!

Balakot casualty count continues to go up everyday. We can see in this thread that there is an international toll.

 

[asianobserve]

I love Tyler Rogoway's articles on The War Zone but this piece sounds like a load of butthurt.

:biggrin2:

Specially the last paragraph!





Lockheed can kiss their F 16's chances in MMRCA goodbye!

Sadly, the F-16 or F-21 is the first casualty in IAF's effort to try to save face in their lackluster performance against a clearly inferior enemy such as the Pakistanis. Imagine if the IAF faced the PLAAF instead of the Pakistanis or worse, both Pakistanis and Chinese...

 

[IndiaRising]

Fishbed vs Falcon: Why the ancient MiG-21's F-16 kill is no fluke

Just after 10 am on February 27, 2019, the Pakistan Air Force deployed "a large strike package" of modern F-16 Falcons, Chinese made JF-17s and some vintage Mirage-5 attack jets to avenge India's bombing of terror sanctuaries in Balakot, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. The PAF's targets were Indian military installations - primarily the brigade headquarters in Bhimber Gali, Jammu, minutes from the Line of Control.

The Indian Air Force scrambled six MiG-21s from its frontline air base in Srinagar to intercept the Pakistani fighters; Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman's fighter was among these six aircraft. The IAF also despatched Sukhoi-30MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MiG-29s from other airbases to provide combat air patrol for the MiG-21 interceptors.

In the ensuing dogfight, the first between India and Pakistan since the 1971 War, Wing Commander Varthaman in his Soviet-era jet managed to acquire a lock on one of the F-16s, shooting it down with a short-range Vympel R-73 air to air missile. Although he couldn't see the outcome of the short 15-minute high-altitude dogfight, Varthaman radioed to base the words "R-73 selected". Seconds later he was himself shot down.

Being the first recorded F-16 kill in history, you'd think it would send ripples across the world of aviation. But curiously, Western defence experts maintained complete silence as the impact of what Varthaman had accomplished took the wind out of the F-16's fanboys.

Coping well at Cope India

Coincidentally, 15 years ago to the date, the MiG-21 (NATO reporting name: Fishbed) had defeated modern American F-series aircraft in a mock combat exercise, sending shock waves through the American defence establishment. In the space of just 13 days, at the Cope India exercise held at the Gwalior air force range from February 15-27, 2004, Indian pilots notched up an astounding 9:1 kill ratio against the all-powerful US Air Force, dealing a massive blow to the myth of invincibility of American air power. What happened at Gwalior will better explain how a six-decade-old jet that has been consigned to the boneyard by the Russians could defeat a modern F-16.

Held from February 15-27, Cope India 2004 highlighted three major issues:

• The innovativeness of Indian fighter pilots.
• The impact of Russian jets when flown by a highly trained and motivated crew.
• The limitations in USAF pilot training.

While the Pentagon brass tried to knock the IAF's achievement, the USAF gave their Indian counterparts their due. Aviation Week & Space Technology's David A. Fulghum quotes Colonel Mike Snodgrass, commander of the USAF's 3rd Wing based at Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska: "The outcome of the exercise boils down to (the fact that) they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected...They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn't working they would call an audible and change (tactics in flight)."

About the different IAF fighters the six F-15Cs from the American pilots encountered, Snodgrass said: "The two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MiG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MiG-21, and the Su-30MK Flanker, also made in Russia."

About the capabilities of IAF pilots, USAF team leader Colonel Greg Newbech said: "What we've seen in the last two weeks is the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with the best air force in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won't be going home."

"They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a (MiG-27) Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. They built a very good (radar) picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll (their aircraft) in and out."

Clearly, it was the IAF's intense training that has given it the edge. A leading Indian newspaper summed up the aerial encounter: "The US Air Force underestimated the Indian Air Force pilots and their numerical skills. They thought these are another set of Iraqi or Iranian pilots."

A different spin in DC

Used to hearing the United States is second only to god, the US leadership nearly burst a collective artery. The USAF detachment had barely packed up its kits at Gwalior when Republican Congressman from California, Duke Cunningham, told a House Appropriations defence subcommittee hearing that USAF F-15Cs had been defeated more than 90 per cent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.

Cunningham's revelation kicked up a huge uproar in Washington. Some Western military observers attempted to debunk the results, claiming the USAF did not bring its true 'go-to-war-gear' to these exercises and that the American pilots fought with several handicaps. What really happened?

Handicapped and totally unprepared

First up, it's true the F-15Cs that participated in Cope India 2004 were not equipped with the latest active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. But then neither were the Indian jets. Secondly, at India's request the USAF agreed to offer combat at 3-to-1 odds, which meant the six American jets were up against 18 IAF aircraft. And finally, the Americans agreed not to simulate their beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles. Doesn't look like a fair fight.

But wait, ask yourself, which air force would spend millions of dollars on a fortnight long exercise that ends in a turkey shoot? Not the IAF, which is a highly professional service. Also, why would the USAF bring all that high-octane military gear all that way just to get a drubbing?

The IAF believes its strength is dogfighting, for which it trains hard as Western air forces. Secondly, the service did not deploy its advanced Su-30 MKI (NATO reporting name: Flanker), only the older Su-30, because the MKI's radar frequencies are classified. There's little advantage in letting your adversary's patron know your combat strategies.

The Indians wanting to even the odds is understandable but the United States accepting these handicaps seems counterintuitive. But in fact the USAF agreed because it was desperate to get a close look at the legendary Flanker.

Why the USAF came up short

The lopsided result can be explained in the difference in combat styles of the two air forces. While the IAF varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations, the American pilot seemed stuck in the static Cold War-style of ground-controlled interceptions, which gives little leeway to the individual pilot. Weaknesses in crew performance and limitations in their range of action were evident during the simulated aerial combat.

Also, US fighter pilots train in a closed system where belief in the America military's superiority reigns supreme. The strategy is that overwhelming numbers - recall the 1,000 aircraft raids over defenceless and tiny Iraq - and technological pyrotechnics will allow the US to dominate without sweating it out. With the notable exception of Vietnam, the US has never take on a large or well-trained military - and probably never will - so the strategy has worked for it.

Also, the 1982 wipeout of the Syrian Air Force over the Bekka Valley by the Israeli Air Force in which 82 Syrian MiGs were downed against the loss of perhaps two American-built Israeli jets had reinforced the belief that US jet fighters are invincible. It was Cope India 2004 that showed the quality of the men in uniform matters more than the jets they fly.

Cope India 2005: Repeat performance

Because of the storm kicked up by Cope India 2004 -which threatened the growing Indo-US partnership - the following year the IAF and USAF opted for exercises that had mixed teams of Indian and American pilots on both sides. But observers and participants at the exercise said in a surprising number of encounters - particularly between USAF F-16s and Indian Su-30 MKIs - the Indian pilots came out on top.

Cope India 2005 proved the previous year's IAF performance was no fluke. The late air commodore Jasjit Singh, who was the then director of the new Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies, said: "Since the Cold War, there has been the general assumption that India is a third world country with Soviet technology, and wherever Soviet-supported equipment went, it didn't perform well. That myth has been blown away by the results."

Air power dynamics

For the Americans, Cope India was a wakeup call as it had grossly underestimated an old Cold Warrior. While it expected the Mirage-2000s and Sukhoi to be potent adversaries, the MiG-21 Bison came as a nasty surprise to the USAF. The positive attributes of the MiG-21 such as low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and "jackrabbit acceleration" were critical factors that gave it an edge.

Plus, its new of helmet mounted sight and high-off-boresight R-73 air-to-air missiles turned the MiG-21 into a "Great Equaliser" in the WVR (within visual range) combat scenario. (The Vympel's ability to rapidly scan a wider angle of the sky in front of it gave Varthaman a huge advantage against his F-16 rival.)

This has serious implications for modern aircraft armed with powerful long range capabilities and weapons. At some stage these aircraft will have to come within visual range and that's when pocket rockets like the MiG-21 can be deadly. As Benjamin Lambeth of the Rand Corporation so succinctly put its, "In visual combat everybody dies at the same rate."

Fly with caution

Varathaman's heroics should not be a thumbs-up for the IAF to keep flying ancient warhorses. A critical factor in the MiG-21's F-16 kill over Jammu & Kashmir was the combat air patrol provided by the Sukhoi Su-30s, MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s. The extremely long range capabilities of the Su-30s and its legendary super-manoeuvrability give it a huge edge in a dogfight that the much smaller F-16 cannot match. The Sukhoi has a loiter and combat persistence ability that has no Western equivalent.

The knowledge that both these air superiority fighters - plus the powerful Mirage-2000s - could enter the dogfight any time and blow them out of the sky was no doubt weighing on the minds of the PAF pilots.

While appreciating the good word done by the IAF, it is important to keep in mind that the MiG-21 is a 65-year-old design and has an unprecedented crash rate that has taken the lives of at least 177 Indian pilots. And let's not forget that Varthaman's MiG-21 was unable to shake off the powerful AMRAAM air-to-air missile fired at it. The MiG-21 belongs in a boneyard, not in Srinagar where by default it becomes India's frontline aircraft - a role it was given when it first entered the IAF fleet in 1964.

If vintage mig 21 can take out an upgraded paki f-16, I shudder to think what will happen to all the chinese junk fighters manned by PLAAF, who have never fought a single battle in their existence?

 

[StealthFlanker]

If vintage mig 21 can take out an upgraded paki f-16, I shudder to think what will happen to all the chinese junk fighters manned by PLAAF, who have never fought a single battle in their existence?

Firstly, that a big if, because, frankly, there isn't yet concrete evidence from Indian side at the moment to show that F-16 was shot down, you may not like that fact, but you can just have a trip around non-india forum and see for your self what people say:
For example:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...at-least-one-fighter-shot-down.726466/page-31

Secondly, if the shot down indeed happened, It still isn't a vantage Mig-21 that shot down an upgraded F-16, it is Mig-21bis with pretty recent upgrade such as Elta-8222 jamming pod, R-73 HOBS missiles, on the other hand, Paki still operate F-16A/B and F-16 ADF which are equipped with pretty old APG-66, their F-16 C/D, of course, have APG-68v9 but still no AESA.
Sure, technical wise, F-16 is still a far better platform than Mig-21,but that doesn't mean we are talking about a vintage aircraft shooting down a very modern fighter.

 

[su35]

Why is this article posted here first?? If someone is closely watching Balakot Airstrike form one can get multiple evidence of airstrike as well as F16 downing no need to post some useless article. and what this South asian Emotion bashing both are doing?? Do Vietnam and philippines do not come in south asia or both are already sold to USA?? I understand philippines it under ISIS attack so might have not taken long for Sharia Laws to establish

 

[StealthFlanker]

Why is this article posted here first?? If someone is closely watching Balakot Airstrike form one can get multiple evidence of airstrike as well as F16 downing no need to post some useless article. and what this South asian Emotion bashing both are doing?? Do Vietnam and philippines do not come in south asia or both are already sold to USA?? I understand philippines it under ISIS attack so might have not taken long for Sharia Laws to establish

Can you give some example of evidences for F-16 downing? Such as?
Also this is not emotion bashing, but rather objectivity, it is about verified fact.

 

[su35]

Can you give some example of evidences for F-16 downing? Such as?
Also this is not emotion bashing, but rather objectivity, it is about verified fact.

First of all this not appropriate thread to discuss these matter, you can ask in relevant thread about proof which is multiple times posted such as name of pilot, Jordan F16 purchase, AIM120C debris in our side, ISPER report on 3 pilot captured then reducing to one, villager seeing 2 tri color parachutes etc.
And the second part is on calling indian and paki emotional and all south asian are?? do Vietnam and Philippines drifted to USA. how can you tell that European and Americans are not emotional?

 

[Immanuel]

There is enough evidence in form of missing pilots as per Gafoora, aim-120 debris, drop tanks that don't look anything like the Bison's. For the rest, people can chill. IAF doesn't lie in general and their record on this is quite clear. Again, IAF and Govt. will reveal all details when needed, for now the air is still hostile. The US will probably get Pukis to admit that they lost a Falcon, in the balance would the possibility for the F-16 and F-18 to bid for India contests. While the F-16 doesn't stand a chance but the F-18 has a big chance to win in IN.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Sadly, the F-16 or F-21 is the first casualty in IAF's effort to try to save face in their lackluster performance against a clearly inferior enemy such as the Pakistanis. Imagine if the IAF faced the PLAAF instead of the Pakistanis or worse, both Pakistanis and Chinese...

Hakka Noodles, your countrymen are employed in India for serving only momos or for giving happy endings to tourists in parlours!

IAF didn't credit a kill to it's pilot for 35 years just because they weren't sure. If we had lost other aircraft and GoI tried to cover up, local media would easily find out and roast GoI alive in an election year. Let's look at the evidences :

1) IAF has gone on record to say that they have EM signatures of F 16 and they have an AMRAAM AIM 120 C-5 recovered as debris.

2) Ghafoora said 3 pilots, then 2 and finally 1. Who and where are the other two? Where is the debris of the second jet? Freudian slip????

3) This is from Tyler Rogoway's own site. By his own admission IAF in 2004/05 kicked USAF arse. PLAAF have nowhere near the professionalism of even PAF let alone IAF and USAF. The only interesting part of his salty diatribe:

The USAF found this out the hard way during one of the most beneficial learning moments in modern air combat training history. Cope India 2004 saw American F-15Cs paired off against the pointy-end of India's wildly diverse Air Force. Although India's Su-30Ks were close to the best thing Russia had to export at the time, and their French-built Mirage 2000s were certainly not to be discounted, the most surprising star of the exercise was the insidious little Bison.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...21-bison-versus-pakistani-f-16-viper-bullshit



PLAAF and PAF! More like tweedle-dum and tweedle-dee!

 

[BON PLAN]

(although I assured everybody here that I do believe that all modern fighters can be shot down by older gen fighters given the right tactics, luck and stupidity on the pilot of the newer fighter)

Absolutely .

 

[BON PLAN]

Firstly, that a big if, because, frankly, there isn't yet concrete evidence from Indian side at the moment to show that F-16 was shot down, you may not like that fact, but you can just have a trip around non-india forum and see for your self what people say:
For example:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...at-least-one-fighter-shot-down.726466/page-31

Secondly, if the shot down indeed happened, It still isn't a vantage Mig-21 that shot down an upgraded F-16, it is Mig-21bis with pretty recent upgrade such as Elta-8222 jamming pod, R-73 HOBS missiles, on the other hand, Paki still operate F-16A/B and F-16 ADF which are equipped with pretty old APG-66, their F-16 C/D, of course, have APG-68v9 but still no AESA.
Sure, technical wise, F-16 is still a far better platform than Mig-21,but that doesn't mean we are talking about a vintage aircraft shooting down a very modern fighter.

You're right. But it's not a good news for F21 in India. At least.

 

[StealthFlanker]

First of all this not appropriate thread to discuss these matter, you can ask in relevant thread about proof which is multiple times posted such as name of pilot

See, this is the exact kind of non-verifiable claim i was talking about, people from both side are so eager to save face for their country that they are willing to believe all random Facebook post as long it confirms their agenda

Quoting Umar’s Facebook post, Swami also reported that the pilot had ejected “possibly in the Laam Valley” and had been mistaken for an Indian pilot by locals on the ground. They allegedly lynched him, and Swami wrote that “Shahaz-ud-Din, Umar has claimed, was hospitalized, but succumbed to his injuries.”

Swami also claimed that both the downed pilots, Varthaman and Shahaz-d-Din, were sons of Air Marshals in the IAF and PAF. “Shahaz-ud-Din’s father, Waseem-ud-Din, is also an Air Marshal of the Pakistan Air Force, who has flown F-16 and Mirages,” he wrote.

However, an investigation by Asia Times revealed that while Air Marshal Wasimuddin did serve in the PAF before retiring, he did not have a son named Shahaz-ud-Din.

Non-existent pilot
Air Marshal Wasimuddin has two sons, Aleem Uddin and Waqar Uddin. Waqar is studying in Warwickshire in the United Kingdom, while Aleem, who has studied at Royal Holloway, the University of London, works in the telecom sector.


“I have only two sons and neither of them has been a part of the PAF, nor has either ever flown a plane,” he said. “I have not considered any legal action [against the Indian media reports]. I actually laughed them off. My sons have been abroad for years. Unfortunately, they have been needlessly dragged into all this,” Wasimuddin said.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/article/no-proof-india-shot-down-pakistan-f-16/

Jordan F16 purchase

I guess you are referring to this theory:

The very obvious problem with that theory is that: the wreckage where he got the series number from, is literally the other side of Mig-21 fuselage wreckage, and you can see that in the video as well. That why i said people are so eager with their confirmatory bias rather than to examine the evidence in details.

AIM120C debris in our side

But that can't be used as an evidence for F-16 shot down, it can only be used as an evidence for F-16 involvement in that combat. Yes, these Paki did lie that their F-16 wasn't involved but that because in the End user agreement, US actually forbid them from using F-16 in any role other than against terrorist.

villager seeing 2 tri color parachutes etc.

The problem is that Mig-21 also carry a braking chute, so it is really hard to call that a conclusive evidence
Nevermind that we have to rely on villager comments about what they allegedly saw. If all the people on the internet, with their knowledge about aviation and all the time in their hand could make mistake such as the one i mentioned earlier about the wreckage, the villager's comments should be taken with a grant of salt.
And another important note that , even if what the villager said was 100% correct, you still can't deduce what version of F-16 was shot down whether it is F-16B or F-16D. Hence, i said people are too eager to arrive at conclusion at this point

And the second part is on calling indian and paki emotional and all south asian are?? do Vietnam and Philippines drifted to USA. how can you tell that European and Americans are not emotional?

Yes Vietnam and Phillippines are also very emotional, from my experience, i believe that us ASIAN are generally more emotional than European in time like this, and this clearly demonstrated in the stream of fake new comming from both Paki and Indi Twitter and people who eat up everything on that so long that it support their prefered agenda

 

[vampyrbladez]

See, this is the exact kind of non-verifiable claim i was talking about, people from both side are so eager to save face for their country that they are willing to believe all random Facebook post as long it confirms their agenda



https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/article/no-proof-india-shot-down-pakistan-f-16/


I guess you are referring to this theory:

The very obvious problem with that theory is that: the wreckage where he got the series number from, is literally the other side of Mig-21 fuselage wreckage, and you can see that in the video as well. That why i said people are so eager with their confirmatory bias rather than to examine the evidence in details.

But that can't be used as an evidence for F-16 shot down, it can only be used as an evidence for F-16 involvement in that combat. Yes, these Paki did lie that their F-16 wasn't involved but that because in the End user agreement, US actually forbid them from using F-16 in any role other than against terrorist.




The problem is that Mig-21 also carry a braking chute, so it is really hard to call that a conclusive evidence
Nevermind that we have to rely on villager comments about what they allegedly saw. If all the people on the internet, with their knowledge about aviation and all the time in their hand could make mistake such as the one i mentioned earlier about the wreckage, the villager's comments should be taken with a grant of salt.
And another important note that , even if what the villager said was 100% correct, you still can't deduce what version of F-16 was shot down whether it is F-16B or F-16D. Hence, i said people are too eager to arrive at conclusion at this point

Yes Vietnam and Phillippines are also very emotional, from my experience, i believe that us ASIAN are generally more emotional than European in time like this, and this clearly demonstrated in the stream of fake new comming from both Paki and Indi Twitter and people who eat up everything on that so long that it support their prefered agenda

Explain the engine hood covering then? Plying propaganda on behalf of Pakis as Chinks won't do you any good.


Fact is a MiG 21BiS took down a PAF F 16.

Lockheed, kiss the MMRCA 2.0 goodbye! :bounce: