F-18 Advanced Super Hornet

[Bahamut]

It is true that is has a lower speed than some of the 4 or 4+ gen fighters out there which is mainly due to its wing design. But the upcoming advanced SH will have more powerful engines. The 2g difference is not significant given the tech available to SH and its turning and nose pointing abilities:

Problem in the video-
1.That is not Su 35 but Su 37 and Su 30.
2.Fall is due to the speed being near zero ( this is to show the aircraft capability),any plane will fall ,and as for climb ,the main factor if thrust to weight ratio which Su has larger value then Su 35.
3.All Su 30MKI pilot that I have talked to tell me that they never approach near zero speed as it is difficult to control but even in other speed range Su are superior to SH due to high T/W and low wing load .

In fact you are right about the obsolescence of WVR maneuvering in air combat.

It is useful is getting rid of the missile ,plus it has its in Gunfight and CAS.

You should ask yourself why Western countries do not employ TVC in their frontline fighters (except the US in F-22 which is only in 2D) despite having studied it and built up prototypes even before the Russians. On a cost-benefit analysis the cost of TVC far outweighs benefits.

West never mange to integrate it with other flight control but the Russian manage to do it .TVC has other advantage such as lower fuel consumption ,increased acceleration ,better safety etc.Plus Russian combat doc train has more emphasizes on A2A and less on A2G.

No. The very basic foundation of BVR air combat is the ability to see and shoot first. IFF is built in all US air assets. As of now the US is set to induct Mode 5. Anybody would be a total fool to think that the US has not considered China in its offensive and defensive system. Right now China is the front and center of the major threat that the US is planning for. India would be best served if it will hitch in this effort.

Sir,IFF are built in all air assert .What if the Chinese decide that we will switch off all IFF transponder ,then SH has to go visual identify each one,plus the Chinese have been working since early 2000 to combat such system and they can limit their effectiveness.

The usual excuses. No doubt the coalition air assets was a giant compared to Iraq's but it must be pointed out that in 1990 had the biggest air force in the Middle east and one of the biggest in the World. It had a potent mix of Western and Soviet weapons. It has a sophisticated air defense system. It had also a very experienced air force due to 10 years of war with Iran. theoretically it could have shot down more coalition aircraft but it did not.

In fact to destroy your lingering misconception of air combat as primarily dogfights, the lone Iraqi shot down of coalition fighter (Mig-25 versus F-18) was done BVR.

Iraq Air forces has easy ,they had no quality lane and even their Mig 29 were old and outdates and had limited EW capabilty ,India will not be so lucky .

 

[su35]

I am only saying that with the size and experience of its air force it should have downed more coalition aircraft than the unbelievable sole F18 it shot down.

In my previous post i have already described how much expreince Iraqi Airforce had after Iran Iraq war.

HERE ARE SOME INSTANCE OF GULF WAR:
The second air-air kill was recorded by a pilot named Jameel Sayhood on January nineteenth. Flying a MIG-29 he shot down a Royal Air Force Tornado GR.1A with R-60 missiles. The RAF aircraft serial ZA396/GE was piloted by Flight Lieutenant D J Waddington, and Flight Lieutenant R J Stewart, and crashed 51 nautical miles South-East of Tallil air base

HERE IS ABOUT YOUR BVR FIGHT
In another incident, an Iraqi Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 eluded eight USAF F-15C Eagles, firing three missiles at a USAF EF-111 electronic warfare aircraft, forcing them to abort their mission. In yet another incident, two MiG-25's approached a pair of F-15 Eagles, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then out-ran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the Foxbats; none of which could reach them.
4 4th generation AMERICAN fighter with were not able to shoot down A SINGLE 3rd generation aircraft

Despite several attacks from U.S. F-15s and F-14s firing AIM-54 and AIM-120 missiles at the Iraqi fighters, the Iraqi maneuvers ensured they were able to avoid any casualties in their dispute over Iraqi airspace. The last recorded air-to-air kill was on 23 December 2002, when a MiG-25 Foxbat shot down an armed American RQ-1 Predator.[23]

 

[Bahamut]

For me F-35 would be a better long term solution for India than the SH. But between the SH and Rafale the SH is definitely the better choice.

We have no need for F 35,our AMCA will be better for us

 

[asianobserve]

We have no need for F 35,our AMCA will be better for us

With the rate of how Indian weapons system are being developed I am very certain that AMCA will take decades to develop. By the time the IAF is confident about its reliability then the US, Russia and China have already moved on to the next generation.

 

[asianobserve]

Problem in the video-
1.That is not Su 35 but Su 37 and Su 30.
2.Fall is due to the speed being near zero ( this is to show the aircraft capability),any plane will fall ,and as for climb ,the main factor if thrust to weight ratio which Su has larger value then Su 35.
3.All Su 30MKI pilot that I have talked to tell me that they never approach near zero speed as it is difficult to control but even in other speed range Su are superior to SH due to high T/W and low wing load .

I posted the video to show you that the SH is incredibly maneuverable despite not having TVC. In fact the absence of TVC makes the SH more effective in maneuvering since it does not bleed more energy than the ballerina Su30.

It is useful is getting rid of the missile ,plus it has its in Gunfight and CAS.

I'm sorry I cannot understand what you mean here.

West never mange to integrate it with other flight control but the Russian manage to do it .TVC has other advantage such as lower fuel consumption ,increased acceleration ,better safety etc.Plus Russian combat doc train has more emphasizes on A2A and less on A2G.

This claim has no basis. The US had integrated 2D TVC in F15 in the 70's and 3D in the 80's while the F16 was tested with 3D TVC in the early 90s.

Sir,IFF are built in all air assert .What if the Chinese decide that we will switch off all IFF transponder ,then SH has to go visual identify each one,plus the Chinese have been working since early 2000 to combat such system and they can limit their effectiveness.

Why would an SH go visual just to identify a Chinese fighter that turned off its IFF? There are a lot of ways of determining a hostile aircraft from BVR. The SH can do it actively or passively.

Iraq Air forces has easy ,they had no quality lane and even their Mig 29 were old and outdates and had limited EW capabilty ,India will not be so lucky .

Excuses. Wasn't it the IAF that trumpeted how allegedly their antiquated Mig21s trashed USAF's F15s in Cope India? If IAF's Mig21 can defeat a top of the line USAF F15 in 2008 I see no reason why Iraqi Mig 29s could not defeat an older version of USAF's F-15 in 1991?

 

[Bahamut]

I posted the video to show you that the SH is incredibly maneuverable despite not having TVC. In fact the absence of TVC makes the SH more effective in maneuvering since it does not bleed more energy than the ballerina Su30.

Sir in all parameter for A2A combat like T/W,wing load etc Su is better then then SH then how exactly is SH better then Su in WVR,please give no.

I'm sorry I cannot understand what you mean here.

Agility of plane /nose pointing ability is still used in CAS and Gunfight and also to defeat missile

This claim has no basis. The US had integrated 2D TVC in F15 in the 70's and 3D in the 80's while the F16 was tested with 3D TVC in the early 90s.

TVC in these plane act as a independent flight control with no coordination with other flight control while Su 35S,Mig 35 has them integrated it with other flight control

Why would an SH go visual just to identify a Chinese fighter that turned off its IFF? There are a lot of ways of determining a hostile aircraft from BVR. The SH can do it actively or passively.

Please tell how

Excuses. Wasn't it the IAF that trumpeted how allegedly their antiquated Mig21s trashed USAF's F15s in Cope India? If IAF's Mig21 can defeat a top of the line USAF F15 in 2008 I see no reason why Iraqi Mig 29s could not defeat an older version of USAF's F-15 in 1991?

IAF jammed the F 15 radar forcing them to go in WVR fight where the wiped the floor with them while Iraq AF had limited to no EW capabilty

 

[Zebra]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ke-in-india-by-march/articleshow/52362719.cms
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/india-to-select-fighter-jet-under-make.html

India To Select Fighter Jet Under 'Make in India' By March
Saturday, May 21, 2016 by Indiandefense News

NEW DELHI: The government will zero in by the end of current fiscal a fighter jet it wants to build under 'Make in India' initiative, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said today, as he expressed confidence that the deal for 36 Rafale jets will be wrapped up in "weeks".

He said India will decide on either Boeing's F- 18A, Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen. { typo ; it should be F/A-18 E/F/G }

Parrikar said various issues, like cost and necessity among others, will have to be taken into account before selecting a foreign fighter even as he pointed out that Rafales are expensive.

"I cannot tell you the dates but it is very near. It is near completion. Need a few more weeks to fine tune it," he said in an interview to All India Radio.

He said the price was still under negotiation. "You will have to bring down the cost. If you give away the price they demand, our coffer will soon become empty," he said.

Parrikar pointed out that a Rafale would cost anywhere between Rs 600 and Rs 750 crore each and a Sukhoi 30 and Tejas can be bought together at the same price. However, it is expected that the 36 Rafales will cost about Euro 7.25 billion without armaments. This will work out to be about Rs 1,500 crore per aircraft.

Strongly backing the quality of Tejas, Parrikar said it has the same qualities as Rafale.

Tejas is in light weight category and its range is also half compared to Rafale, but in terms of avionics, electronics and fire power it is no less to Rafale, he said.

The minister said India will select a good fighter by the end of this financial year to be made domestically

"It is not yet decided which aircraft it would be. It may be F-18, Rafale, Eurofighter or Grippen. The decision in this regard will be taken in this financial year," he said.

 

[Zebra]

^^
correction .....................

Even there are nothing like F/A-18 G.

Its EA-18G Growler.

 

[BON PLAN]

It is like the development of the F-35. It started out as a contestant of the JSF fly-off competition. But don't tell me that the prototype that the current F-35 has nothing to do with the X-35 that was entered in the JSF fly-off? The same with Rafale. It first flew in 1986, so it's an old duck already.

No. Actual Rafale is shorter, lighter, stealthier, with a different main Delta wings.

 

[BON PLAN]

Just in case. all threat scenarios should be covered don't you think? In fact it is very unlikely that Rafale will drop a nuclear bomb on any country and yet France continue to maintain nuclear bombs.

Just in case..... what a story !
And same for helmet display? Just in case ?

 

[BON PLAN]

The usual excuses. No doubt the coalition air assets was a giant compared to Iraq's but it must be pointed out that in 1990 had the biggest air force in the Middle east and one of the biggest in the World. It had a potent mix of Western and Soviet weapons. It has a sophisticated air defense system. It had also a very experienced air force due to 10 years of war with Iran. theoretically it could have shot down more coalition aircraft but it did not.

In fact to destroy your lingering misconception of air combat as primarily dogfights, the lone Iraqi shot down of coalition fighter (Mig-25 versus F-18) was done BVR.




War at present would be markedly more different in a sense that technology has progressed a lot since 1991. But the trend is clear, an air war now between the major powers would be waged mainly in BVR.

Quantity doesn't superseed quality.
How to compare old Mirage F1, Su24, Mirage 3, Su25, Old fashioned Mig25 with F15E, F15C, F18, F16, Mirage 2000 ? Irak had no awacs, all com Equipment and ground radar destroyed day 0 by ALCM.

It's not because iraki's pilots flew against iranian ones the last 10 years they were able to match with western ones.

 

[BON PLAN]

In fact to destroy your lingering misconception of air combat as primarily dogfights, the lone Iraqi shot down of coalition fighter (Mig-25 versus F-18) was done BVR.

One coalition plane shoot down by ennemy plane.

And how many western planes shoot down by friend fires during this war? more than one.... At least one by a Patriot shoot. Imagine the result against a main air force...
Iraki air force was even at those time a weak force. Many but old planes, without recent EW and electronic support and weak pilots.

 

[Zebra]

Problem in the video-
1.That is not Su 35 but Su 37 and Su 30.
2.Fall is due to the speed being near zero ( this is to show the aircraft capability),any plane will fall ,and as for climb ,the main factor if thrust to weight ratio which Su has larger value then Su 35.
3.All Su 30MKI pilot that I have talked to tell me that they never approach near zero speed as it is difficult to control but even in other speed range Su are superior to SH due to high T/W and low wing load .

Sir, its not your fault, our people get excited about " T/W " and "wing load" and things like that.
May be that is why they can't think how a aircraft still do all the jobs without having high T/W and low wing load.

It is useful is getting rid of the missile ,plus it has its in Gunfight and CAS.

West never mange to integrate it with other flight control but the Russian manage to do it .TVC has other advantage such as lower fuel consumption ,increased acceleration ,better safety etc.Plus Russian combat doc train has more emphasizes on A2A and less on A2G.

Check General Dynamics F-16 VISTA with MATV.
video.....................

Sir,IFF are built in all air assert .What if the Chinese decide that we will switch off all IFF transponder ,then SH has to go visual identify each one,plus the Chinese have been working since early 2000 to combat such system and they can limit their effectiveness.
Iraq Air forces has easy ,they had no quality lane and even their Mig 29 were old and outdates and had limited EW capabilty ,India will not be so lucky .

I disagree with you sir.
Stay with US and that's the best option.

 

[Zebra]

In my previous post i have already described how much expreince Iraqi Airforce had after Iran Iraq war.

HERE ARE SOME INSTANCE OF GULF WAR:
The second air-air kill was recorded by a pilot named Jameel Sayhood on January nineteenth. Flying a MIG-29 he shot down a Royal Air Force Tornado GR.1A with R-60 missiles. The RAF aircraft serial ZA396/GE was piloted by Flight Lieutenant D J Waddington, and Flight Lieutenant R J Stewart, and crashed 51 nautical miles South-East of Tallil air base

HERE IS ABOUT YOUR BVR FIGHT
In another incident, an Iraqi Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 eluded eight USAF F-15C Eagles, firing three missiles at a USAF EF-111 electronic warfare aircraft, forcing them to abort their mission. In yet another incident, two MiG-25's approached a pair of F-15 Eagles, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then out-ran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the Foxbats; none of which could reach them.
4 4th generation AMERICAN fighter with were not able to shoot down A SINGLE 3rd generation aircraft

Despite several attacks from U.S. F-15s and F-14s firing AIM-54 and AIM-120 missiles at the Iraqi fighters, the Iraqi maneuvers ensured they were able to avoid any casualties in their dispute over Iraqi airspace. The last recorded air-to-air kill was on 23 December 2002, when a MiG-25 Foxbat shot down an armed American RQ-1 Predator.[23]

Sir, total how many sorties they made in entire Iraq war.

Out of it , how many numbers you are talking about "forcing them to abort their mission" / "shot down" in your post.

Don't you think the difference in numbers matters a lot.

 

[asianobserve]

Sir in all parameter for A2A combat like T/W,wing load etc Su is better then then SH then how exactly is SH better then Su in WVR,please give no.

Air combat is not only about agility or speed. Sensors, weapons systems and systems integrations is better since these 4 or 4+ gen planes are closely matched in terms of agility and speed.

In any case, WVR combat between the SH and Su30 or 35, or any other closely matched current fighters for that matter, will almost end up in a mutual kill. It is in BVR that the fight will be decided.

Agility of plane /nose pointing ability is still used in CAS and Gunfight and also to defeat missile

Why would you need nose pointing ability in CAS when you're simply dropping bombs or firing A2G missiles? Modern air forces very seldom use guns in CAS (except the A-10 which is primarily a flying cannon).

As I already pointed out earlier modern air forces will seldom reach WVR. and if you are the fighter pilot you would be very stupid to end up in a WVR fight.

To defeat missiles in WVR a plane only needs sudden rolls (and a lot of prayers that the missile will lose lock). No current or future fighter can out turn current infrared AAMs. Think about it, the most agile fighters are only rated 9Gs while current infrared missiles are rated up to 60Gs. How can you compete with that?

TVC in these plane act as a independent flight control with no coordination with other flight control while Su 35S,Mig 35 has them integrated it with other flight control

I don't know how you can believe that. A modern fighter jet cannot fly without integrated flight control systems. You cannot stick in a 3D thrust vectoring nozzle on to the back of 2 powerful jet engines and then manually steer it independent of aelirones, rudders, etc.... That's crazy.

Anyway, here's a 1980's video of ACTIV and see for yourself how fully coordinated are its movements:

IAF jammed the F 15 radar forcing them to go in WVR fight where the wiped the floor with them while Iraq AF had limited to no EW capabilty

You do not belittle the capabilities of the Iraqis in 1991. Perhaps what they lacked was leadership and discipline. But in terms of hardware they had a formidable collection of it and should have inflicted more damage than the measly lone F18 (the Tornado is not confirmed).

 

[asianobserve]

Just in case..... what a story !
And same for helmet display? Just in case ?

Then you don't know the air combat doctrine of the US. On A2A combat they primarily fight in the BVR. They want to see first and shoot first. But they also learned from Vietnam War that there will be instances that their pilots will find themselves in WVR (but not as much nowadays since technology has matured and advanced far) against agile fighter planes hence they are investing in Red Flag, Top Gun and dissimilar trainings to simulate WVR. They also keep on updating their short range weapons to keep up with the threats. But their emphasis on WVR is only secondary to BVR. They will avoid WVR combat at all cost.

As I already said please read the scholarly material on the trends of A2A combat.

 

[asianobserve]

In my previous post i have already described how much expreince Iraqi Airforce had after Iran Iraq war.

HERE ARE SOME INSTANCE OF GULF WAR:
The second air-air kill was recorded by a pilot named Jameel Sayhood on January nineteenth. Flying a MIG-29 he shot down a Royal Air Force Tornado GR.1A with R-60 missiles. The RAF aircraft serial ZA396/GE was piloted by Flight Lieutenant D J Waddington, and Flight Lieutenant R J Stewart, and crashed 51 nautical miles South-East of Tallil air base

HERE IS ABOUT YOUR BVR FIGHT
In another incident, an Iraqi Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 eluded eight USAF F-15C Eagles, firing three missiles at a USAF EF-111 electronic warfare aircraft, forcing them to abort their mission. In yet another incident, two MiG-25's approached a pair of F-15 Eagles, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then out-ran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the Foxbats; none of which could reach them.
4 4th generation AMERICAN fighter with were not able to shoot down A SINGLE 3rd generation aircraft

Despite several attacks from U.S. F-15s and F-14s firing AIM-54 and AIM-120 missiles at the Iraqi fighters, the Iraqi maneuvers ensured they were able to avoid any casualties in their dispute over Iraqi airspace. The last recorded air-to-air kill was on 23 December 2002, when a MiG-25 Foxbat shot down an armed American RQ-1 Predator.[23]

You have to look at the holistic picture of the Gulf War, not isolated incidents or claims of incidents.

 

[asianobserve]

No. Actual Rafale is shorter, lighter, stealthier, with a different main Delta wings.

The final version of the F-35 has also differences with the X-35 but you do not say that they are different planes. What they underwent is a natural progression of fighter development.

 

[asianobserve]

Quantity doesn't superseed quality.
How to compare old Mirage F1, Su24, Mirage 3, Su25, Old fashioned Mig25 with F15E, F15C, F18, F16, Mirage 2000 ? Irak had no awacs, all com Equipment and ground radar destroyed day 0 by ALCM.

It's not because iraki's pilots flew against iranian ones the last 10 years they were able to match with western ones.

The Americans were essentially green pilots. But hey I am not advocating that Iraq should have won it, I am merely saying that Iraq should have taken out more coalition planes than the embarrassing sole F18.

 

[asianobserve]

One coalition plane shoot down by ennemy plane.

And how many western planes shoot down by friend fires during this war? more than one.... At least one by a Patriot shoot. Imagine the result against a main air force...
Iraki air force was even at those time a weak force. Many but old planes, without recent EW and electronic support and weak pilots.

Friendly A2A shootdowns in 1991 Gulf war? Zero. That is an excellent record if you ask me since on the first day alone the coalition was able to generate 1,300 air combat sorties over Iraq as against 100+ Iraqi air sorties. This would have been lush vegetation for fratricide on the part of coalition forces.