F-16 Viper

[Tang]

Replaced with what? There are around 100 Mig-21 in IAF. What is the replacement rate with LCA?

Better product than Rafale exists already that every major airforce in the world is buying. Fanboys

The Sq. To Sq replacement is done by Tejas, Su30, Rafale - 2 each till now,
Rest by Tejas Mk1a when it will start production in 2023-24 - 4 sq.

 

[Tang]

Replaced with what? There are around 100 Mig-21 in IAF. What is the replacement rate with LCA?

Better product than Rafale exists already that every major airforce in the world is buying. Fanboys

I am not a fanboy, you seems to be one for F16.

Btw US has not offered F35 to India.
If US govt is really serious about winning MMRCA then it has field F35, and let it compete with all.

 

[mist_consecutive]

I like how nearly everyone writing on this thread has absolutely no knowledge of air warfare. Let's have some fun.

Rafale (or any other 4th Gen) cannot match any 5th Gen fighter. Let’s not continue pointless arguments. If India was serious about matching China, would have asked for F-35 and work towards getting that.


All jets pay the penalty of “hot and high” ops so don’t know why single-out F16. It has same thrust to weight ratio as Rafale.

What is a 5th generation jet, exactly? Do J-20 qualifies for it? They make a big ass jet painted black and that supposedly makes it 5th gen, eh?

What exact advantage does J-20 have over Rafale/E2000 ?

• RCS - Debatable, a country manufacturing reverse-engineered jets till now suddenly making a leap for 5th gen platform? Even Russia is having difficulty coming up with a low RCS jet.
• Missiles - No way PL-15 has 300 (or even 200) km range with a 4m long body with a solid rocket motor. Laughable claim.
• Sensor Fusion - Unverified and probably not up to par.
• Engines - Underpowered and inefficient.

Dogfights are overrated. In fact Sukhois were nutralized by older PAF F-16s from far away. And giant Sukhois 30s are the worst to be in case of a dogfight with smaller and very nimble F-16s, especially with HMDs and AIM 9x.

And F-16s were neutralized by 1960s Mig-21, in a dogfight, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE OVERRATED AND OUTDATED!

Had the giant Sukhois been closer the AMRAAMS may have found target. You see the biggest liability of Sukhoi 30s in modern combat is its size. Without stealth shaping and coating Sukhoi 30s are easily picked up on radar, especially if they turn on their powerful N011M radar.

Jammers are made exactly to blind such incoming missiles.

Your statement abridged a little -

You see, biggest liability of F-16 is its aluminium tin-can body which reflects radar wave as good as Su-30s aluminium body. And without shaping and coating F-16s are easily picked up on radar, especially if they turn on their outdated pulse-doppler radars.

Then Sukhoi's strength is not dogfighting but serving as mini AWACs from the back.

Ah right, Russia, India, China, Ukraine, Malaysia need 100s of AWACS because combat jets are overrated anyway.

Replaced with what? There are around 100 Mig-21 in IAF. What is the replacement rate with LCA?

Better product than Rafale exists already that every major airforce in the world is buying. Fanboys

100s of Mig-21s are not being retired on a single day but phased out gradually at a rate of around a squadron each year. Mig-21s are being replaced by LCA, Mig-29s, Su-30MKIs, and Rafales (one squadron of Rafale replaced Mig-21MF long retired).

By better product you mean F-35, right? Undoubtedly. But the price, maintenance costs, and logistics do not justify the performance offered, nor does it fits our budget.

 

[Trololo]

I don’t think buying more fighter jets is a priority for Covid devastated India right now. I also do not see other fighter jet buy than a repeat order for few Rafale in years to come.

Looking at current LCA production rate, IAF pilots will be flying MiG-21 for many years to come.

As long as Covid devastated India does not buy the F-16 I am happy. There is no purpose that type will serve in our airforce that the upcoming MWF won't be able to. LCA production is getting ramped up, infra is being built. Plane to plane they replace MiG 21s. Even if the complete MiG 21 fleet is retired by 2024-2025, additional Rafales and LCA Mk1s will more than make up for the numbers with the increased capability. So no need to import the F-16.

 

[no smoking]

Even in Vietnam war, we heard the same by USAF, isn't it
Btw Su30MKI were at lower altitude than F16 that time, and further Su30 could not cross LOC due to operational req.
While 4-5 AMRAAM failed to even give a scratch to a Su30

Because those AMRAAMs are not suppose to shoot down any India fighter jet within India border. If that happened, the risk of war would escalate dramatically, that is the last thing Pakistan wants.

Su30 has TVC, Supermaneuverability and better aerodynamics that f16, so in a dogfight it will always dust it down.

But before Su30 getting into dogfight distance, there is a very good chance that it is already shoot down.

 

[Flying Dagger]

F-16V is better than any IAF aircraft in avionics, armament, sensors, reliability and EW except Rafale.

I doubt any IAF MiG-21 pilot flying that shuddering craft shares your juvenile view on utility of a modern jet that is badly needed.

So atleast you admit it's inferior to Rafale in terms of avionics and offcourse other parameters too.

Now coming back to Mig 21 only 5-6 sqd left that too semi active and being replaced now by 23 they'll get one more Mig 29 sqd apart from 1+ Tejas. Rafale order will be likely extended for another 2-3 sqd . So there is no need for a salesman pitch we have got it covered.

 

[Tang]

Because those AMRAAMs are not suppose to shoot down any India fighter jet within India border. If that happened, the risk of war would escalate dramatically, that is the last thing Pakistan wants.



But before Su30 getting into dogfight distance, there is a very good chance that it is already shoot down.

Su30MKI can see F16V from 200KM.
No way F16 can shoot it down,
Su30MKI will see first and shoot first, even with their BARS radar.
Now think about what will happen with the UTTAM AESA radar.

 

[Wisemarko]

I am not a fanboy, you seems to be one for F16.

Btw US has not offered F35 to India.
If US govt is really serious about winning MMRCA then it has field F35, and let it compete with all.

US government is neither too serious nor desperate for sale to India, there are much bigger and established customers available for US weapons. In fact, US government doesn’t help LM or Boeing much in securing sales to India at all.

The bottom line is - F-35 is not coming. If you want F-16 or F-18 ask for it.

 

[Trololo]

US government is neither too serious nor desperate for sale to India, there are much bigger and established customers available for US weapons. In fact, US government doesn’t help LM or Boeing much in securing sales to India at all.

The bottom line is - F-35 is not coming. If you want F-16 or F-18 ask for it.

No need for the F-35 either. Waste of money and yet another liability.

 

[Wisemarko]

Su30MKI can see F16V from 200KM.
No way F16 can shoot it down,
Su30MKI will see first and shoot first, even with their BARS radar.
Now think about what will happen with the UTTAM AESA radar.

F-16 AESA can “see” large aircraft like SU-30 way before Su-30 (even with BARS which is obsolete) can see F-16.

The RCS of SU-30 (15m2) is too large to hide anywhere from a decent radar let alone state of the art RACR. I am not going to go in details of already well known information

 

[Wisemarko]

No need for the F-35 either. Waste of money and yet another liability.

Need or not— not selling lol

 

[Trololo]

Need or not— not selling lol

Meh. Doesn't matter either way.

 

[Wisemarko]

So atleast you admit it's inferior to Rafale in terms of avionics and offcourse other parameters too.

Now coming back to Mig 21 only 5-6 sqd left that too semi active and being replaced now by 23 they'll get one more Mig 29 sqd apart from 1+ Tejas. Rafale order will be likely extended for another 2-3 sqd . So there is no need for a salesman pitch we have got it covered.

I don’t indulge in fanboy discussion about same generation fighters. I would have said the same about Gripen, Eurofighter or F-18.

It does get funny when fanboys (don’t know better word) start claiming Rafale can match F-22 and F-35.

If only 5-6 squadrons of Mig-21 is a small number, what is the rate of replacement?

MiG-29? All those mothballed planes will be ready 2 years? You don’t have to fool me...
Mig-21 will be there for long time.. those poor pilots..

I support buying more Rafale since-the money spent is already spent on infrastructure for few more.

 

[Tang]

F-16 AESA can “see” large aircraft like SU-30 way before Su-30 (even with BARS which is obsolete) can see F-16.

The RCS of SU-30 (15m2) is too large to hide anywhere from a decent radar let alone state of the art RACR. I am not going to go in details of already well known information

For those who don't know

N011M is not simply a PESA, but instead, it's a transition between PESA and AESA in that it adopts technologies from both: each transceiver on the antenna array of N011M has its own receiver amplifier, which is the same as AESA, and with noise level of 3dB, which is also in the same class of AESA arrays

N011M has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km, with 60 km in the rear in the air-to-air mode. Detection range fighter type MIG-29 in area of review of over 300 sq. deg: - on towards course - up to 140 km; - in pursuit of - up to 60 km. Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track while scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once.


And if Bars N011M radar which is between PESA and Aesa tech is obsolete than most of the inventory of USAF F16 is obsolete.

Now imagine what would happen when Su30 will be upgraded with UTTAM aesa radar with 1500+ TRMs.

 

[Tang]

Need or not— not selling lol

We won't be buying a failed jet which even USAF has termed it shit but had to buy it, cause it has no option left

 

[Tang]

I don’t indulge in fanboy discussion about same generation fighters. I would have said the same about Gripen, Eurofighter or F-18.

It does get funny when fanboys (don’t know better word) start claiming Rafale can match F-22 and F-35.

If only 5-6 squadrons of Mig-21 is a small number, what is the rate of replacement?

MiG-29? All those mothballed planes will be ready 2 years? You don’t have to fool me...
Mig-21 will be there for long time.. those poor pilots..

I support buying more Rafale since-the money spent is already spent on infrastructure for few more.

You are exactly that, a fanboy of F16 which are now obsolete jets compared to Rafale, heck even Gripen E/F

As I have already told you Mig21 sq are being replaced by Rafale(2 sq) Su30(2sq) rest Tejas(2sq)
Then Mk1a will add on our sq numbers

 

[Tang]

F-16 AESA can “see” large aircraft like SU-30 way before Su-30 (even with BARS which is obsolete) can see F-16.

The RCS of SU-30 (15m2) is too large to hide anywhere from a decent radar let alone state of the art RACR. I am not going to go in details of already well known information

For fanboys here

 

[Flying Dagger]

Because those AMRAAMs are not suppose to shoot down any India fighter jet within India border. If that happened, the risk of war would escalate dramatically, that is the last thing Pakistan wants.



But before Su30 getting into dogfight distance, there is a very good chance that it is already shoot down.

So they threw bombs at Indian military arms depot but didn't wanted to escalate ?

They fired amraams which cost million of dollars aiming at ?

Or they were Chinese copy of amraam

 

[Flying Dagger]

I don’t indulge in fanboy discussion about same generation fighters. I would have said the same about Gripen, Eurofighter or F-18.

It does get funny when fanboys (don’t know better word) start claiming Rafale can match F-22 and F-35.

If only 5-6 squadrons of Mig-21 is a small number, what is the rate of replacement?

MiG-29? All those mothballed planes will be ready 2 years? You don’t have to fool me...
Mig-21 will be there for long time.. those poor pilots..

I support buying more Rafale since-the money spent is already spent on infrastructure for few more.

No one brought F-22 or troubled F-35 to compare with Rafale apart from you.

This non-sense zibber zabber only tells how insecure you are to pitch F-16 against Rafale.

Gripen E is also better than F-16 in terms of RCS, avionics, GaN based AESA radar MBDA Meteor already integrated etc etc.

F-16s stand no chance against china while against American ally Pakistan we will use our Indo French Russian arsenal.

Tejas is there to replace whatever left of Mig 21 and is a much better transition for IAF than F-16s

In short both technologically & politically F-16s brings nothing but downgrade to the table now.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

I like how nearly everyone writing on this thread has absolutely no knowledge of air warfare. Let's have some fun.



What is a 5th generation jet, exactly? Do J-20 qualifies for it? They make a big ass jet painted black and that supposedly makes it 5th gen, eh?

What exact advantage does J-20 have over Rafale/E2000 ?

• RCS - Debatable, a country manufacturing reverse-engineered jets till now suddenly making a leap for 5th gen platform? Even Russia is having difficulty coming up with a low RCS jet.
• Missiles - No way PL-15 has 300 (or even 200) km range with a 4m long body with a solid rocket motor. Laughable claim.
• Sensor Fusion - Unverified and probably not up to par.
• Engines - Underpowered and inefficient.

And F-16s were neutralized by 1960s Mig-21, in a dogfight, WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE OVERRATED AND OUTDATED!



Jammers are made exactly to blind such incoming missiles.

Your statement abridged a little -

You see, biggest liability of F-16 is its aluminium tin-can body which reflects radar wave as good as Su-30s aluminium body. And without shaping and coating F-16s are easily picked up on radar, especially if they turn on their outdated pulse-doppler radars.



Ah right, Russia, India, China, Ukraine, Malaysia need 100s of AWACS because combat jets are overrated anyway.



100s of Mig-21s are not being retired on a single day but phased out gradually at a rate of around a squadron each year. Mig-21s are being replaced by LCA, Mig-29s, Su-30MKIs, and Rafales (one squadron of Rafale replaced Mig-21MF long retired).

By better product you mean F-35, right? Undoubtedly. But the price, maintenance costs, and logistics do not justify the performance offered, nor does it fits our budget.

I feel the Rafale will be a future dependable of the IAF as it offers us everything in below fifth generation aircraft category in terms of aircraft characteristics and weapon characteristics.the only issue is that it is imported.it also has possibility of being further upgraded.

It will be our future mirage 2000 equivalent hopefully.

F16 on the other hand is just america being america and offering a very outdated platform at current time when we need future proofing and also not any impressive weapon suites for our needs.it brings nothing extra to the table for an imported maal.if you are going to induct foreign aircraft in the current spirit of atmanirbhar bharat it should atleast have some special tricks that only it can do.

If it had any chance of getting inducted america should have tried in the 1980s but then america would not have tried selling it due to relationship status.

If we are going to add another aircraft type now it only makes sense to add more rafales and then increase orders for lca.