F-16 Viper

[gutenmorgen]

Problem is that your feelings are in right place but you are talking without enough information here.

On paper, no 4th Gen fighter can take on a fifth Gen fighter. Be it Rafale or F-18 or F-16 against F-35/J-20. So do not get carried away with marketing materials of Dassault.

F-16 flies from Alaska to Scandinavia. I don’t know what cold trials were done and with what motive but working in extreme cold weather is not a problem with any F series.

War is not fought between champions, it is fought between armies (old proverb).

Its not the cold air. The main problem is lower air density due to the altitude. The kind of havoc it wreaks on the jets, their mtow capability and range is a well known fact.
The Chinese jets basically take off with less than half the payloads from their side.
I am only saying this about the Leh trials and not about whether F16 is good/bad for IAF. You do have a point in getting a good enough platform quickly (maybe the fastest possible way), but then again, it will probably be difficult to understand as an American why it is a difficult choice for India to either get the airframes with delays or get the Murican noose that comes free of cost with the F16s.
PS I am not trying to offend anybody.

 

[asianobserve]

F-16 can operate from Leh with no problems. All modern fighter jets can operate from Leh as in fact I think the IAF operates their giant SU-30s and Mig 29s from Leh. The only problem I see here is institutional aversion against American fighters.

But all things considered, F-16 block70 is the best solution to IAFs desperate need for frontline fighters to replace its ageing Mig-21s. And F-16 block70's capabilities are on par with Rafale and far ahead of SU-30 or Mig-29.

 

[Lonewolf]

F-16 can operate from Leh with no problems. All modern fighter jets can operate from Leh as in fact I think the IAF operates their giant SU-30s and Mig 29s from Leh. The only problem I see here is institutional aversion against American fighters.

But all things considered, F-16 block70 is the best solution to IAFs desperate need for frontline fighters to replace its ageing Mig-21s. And F-16 block70's capabilities are on par with Rafale and far ahead of SU-30 or Mig-29.

Dude , you comparing single engine with twin engine fighter , okay all fuggter operational from leh are mistly twin engine , secondly f 16 don't have high combat radius ,which we require , secondly any procurement from usa comes with ropes (not strings ) attached .

Su 30 are up for upgrade and comparison before upgrade should be with older block of f 16 .

F 16 is sold more cause it's a single engine fighter , lower cost of operation .

Mig 21 ain't replaced by mmrca like rafale but by tejas program .

 

[asianobserve]

Dude , you comparing single engine with twin engine fighter , okay all fuggter operational from leh are mistly twin engine , secondly f 16 don't have high combat radius ,which we require , secondly any procurement from usa comes with ropes (not strings ) attached .

Su 30 are up for upgrade and comparison before upgrade should be with older block of f 16 .

F 16 is sold more cause it's a single engine fighter , lower cost of operation .


Mig 21 ain't replaced by mmrca like rafale but by tejas program .

Is the IAF not operating Mig 21s and Mirage 2000s in Ladakh? If the IAF can operate these fighters in Ladakh then it can operate F-16s easily.

Besides, being single engined is really not going to be an issue with the F-16 which has a T/W of greater than 1.

 

[Lonewolf]

Is the IAF not operating Mig 21s and Mirage 2000s in Ladakh? If the IAF can operate these fighters in Ladakh then it can operate F-16s easily.

Besides, being single engined is really not going to be an issue with the F-16 which has a T/W of greater than 1.

Nah mostly sukhoi mki , if it isn't issue with f 16 why it failed trials.
.

 

[asianobserve]

Nah mostly sukhoi mki , if it isn't issue with f 16 why it failed trials.
.

That's perplexing to me. I just compare the F-16 with what the IAF operates or have operated in Ladakh (Did IAF operate Jaguars there?) In particular, F-16 has a better T/W ratio, and I daresay better reliability, than Su-30 that it operates in Ladakh.

So my conclusion is that it's not F-16 that's the issue here, which in its block70 configuration is on par with Rafale and all 4.5 gen fighters in the market, rather the issue is reflexive hesitancy against US frontline fighters.

 

[asianobserve]

Further, I believe F-16's F110 engine has better performance and reliability than the AL-31 used by Su-30. So F-16's disqualification is a headscratcher.

 

[Tang]

That's perplexing to me. I just compare the F-16 with what the IAF operates or have operated in Ladakh (Did IAF operate Jaguars there?) In particular, F-16 has a better T/W ratio, and I daresay better reliability, than Su-30 that it operates in Ladakh.

So my conclusion is that it's not F-16 that's the issue here, which in its block70 configuration is on par with Rafale and all 4.5 gen fighters in the market, rather the issue is reflexive hesitancy against US frontline fighters.

You can't assume right,
That old dog failed to even have a cold start in LEH, even gripen and others also failed.
As correctly pointed out by someone
MMRCA is not an replacement for MiG-21, Tejas is doing that, MMRCA is our leading edge against China and no matter what you all say, F16 is never going to be equal to Rafale.

 

[Tang]

Problem is that your feelings are in right place but you are talking without enough information here.

On paper, no 4th Gen fighter can take on a fifth Gen fighter. Be it Rafale or F-18 or F-16 against F-35/J-20. So do not get carried away with marketing materials of Dassault.

F-16 flies from Alaska to Scandinavia. I don’t know what cold trials were done and with what motive but working in extreme cold weather is not a problem with any F series.

War is not fought between champions, it is fought between armies (old proverb).

Please read more about MMRCA and why 4 contenders failed in LEH trials.

As per IAF Rafale is edge we need against J20 until AMCA comes in.

USAF have F35 and F22 as the tip of the spear against China and f16 as an old dog for other works,

IAF will never accept any aircraft less than Rafale.

We live in very hostile environment, unlike USA

 

[asianobserve]

You can't assume right,
That old dog failed to even have a cold start in LEH, even gripen and others also failed.
As correctly pointed out by someone
MMRCA is not an replacement for MiG-21, Tejas is doing that, MMRCA is our leading edge against China and no matter what you all say, F16 is never going to be equal to Rafale.

F-16 has better EASA radar, available IR targetting system (which IAF Rafales currently do not have), the widest weapons integration, lower acquisition and lower operational cost to Rafale. Somehow logic does not favor Rafale here.

 

[asianobserve]

Please read more about MMRCA and why 4 contenders failed in LEH trials.

As per IAF Rafale is edge we need against J20 until AMCA comes in.

USAF have F35 and F22 as the tip of the spear against China and f16 as an old dog for other works,

IAF will never accept any aircraft less than Rafale.

We live in very hostile environment, unlike USA

The US has been dealing and still deal with all the most capable potential enemies from USSR to Russia to China. IAF only deals with China (Pakistan should be a joke). And the US continues to operate F-16s against both

 

[Tang]

F-16 has better EASA radar, available IR targetting system (which IAF Rafales currently do not have), the widest weapons integration, lower acquisition and lower operational cost to Rafale. Somehow logic does not favor Rafale here.

Please provide source regarding F16 having better Aesa Radar than RafaleF3R
Further IR will also come in 2022.
IR is not a new thing for IAF unlike USAF, all our main fighter jets has IR integrated in the body itself.

Get me a better missile than Meteor and better EW suite than Spectra in F16.
Then we will talk about buying F16.

Further I wonder if F16 acquisition cost will be so much less than Rafale,
Rafale with weapon package will cost us around
$4.5 billion for 28-30 Rafale for the next tranche.
We have already paid for the integration cost of our stuff.
We would just need to negotiate the tech transfer for the next batch.

 

[Tang]

The US has been dealing and still deal with all the most capable potential enemies from USSR to Russia to China. IAF only deals with China (Pakistan should be a joke). And the US continues to operate F-16s against both

Look try to understand,
1st F16 failed to clear even the trails.
2nd we are not buying jets in MMRCA to fill numbers(we have Tejas for that, we will have around 300 nos in our inventory), we are buying to get the edge against China, USAF has F35 and F22.
IAF is not a lowly airforce.
So IAF will get better equipment to be our tip of the sword.
3rd Now coming to F16V, let it go to the trials and clear the it, only then it can compete with Rafale on price.

 

[asianobserve]

Please provide source regarding F16 having better Aesa Radar than RafaleF3R
Further IR will also come in 2022.
IR is not a new thing for IAF unlike USAF, all our main fighter jets has IR integrated in the body itself.

Get me a better missile than Meteor and better EW suite than Spectra in F16.
Then we will talk about buying F16.

Further I wonder if F16 acquisition cost will be so much less than Rafale,
Rafale with weapon package will cost us around
$4.5 billion for 28-30 Rafale for the next tranche.
We have already paid for the integration cost of our stuff.
We would just need to negotiate the tech transfer for the next batch.

This may not sound technical, but considering that F-16 V/Block 70's APG 83 radar is the offshoot of F-22's APG 77 AESA radar and F-35's APG 81 AESA radar, then it follows that it's more advanced than France's first jab at AESA, RBE2.

 

[Abhay Rajput 02]

This may not sound technical, but considering that F-16 V/Block 70's APG 83 radar is the offshoot of F-22's APG 77 AESA radar and F-35's APG 81 AESA radar, then it follows that it's more advanced than France's first jab at AESA, RBE2.

rafale has better radar. we did evaluate f21 with apg83. rafale can detect and track f16 at 200km. for comparison i am assusming the same for apg83, and here comes the main difference i.e. meteor missile which outranges aim120 quite easily and have much more energy in the end game than aim120. weapons are as much important as sensors. plus rafale ew is pretty good far better than anything on f16 . rafale has it own weapons for bombing runs albeit a little expensive . it also has good cruise missile in the form of scalp.
now read this report submited to australian senate by there defence analyst. ofcourse there is much exaggeration but it will still give you a pretty good idea.

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=cafb27be-b52e-4614-aa64-f2782942aeca&subId=407837

also please read this swiss leaked report . now remember that rafale score highly than f18 c/d with pesa radar in air to air. with aesa radar its range is increased by 50 percent.

 

[asianobserve]

rafale has better radar. we did evaluate f21 with apg83. rafale can detect and track f16 at 200km. for comparison i am assusming the same for apg83, and here comes the main difference i.e. meteor missile which outranges aim120 quite easily and have much more energy in the end game than aim120. weapons are as much important as sensors. plus rafale ew is pretty good far better than anything on f16 . rafale has it own weapons for bombing runs albeit a little expensive . it also has good cruise missile in the form of scalp.
now read this report submited to australian senate by there defence analyst. ofcourse there is much exaggeration but it will still give you a pretty good idea.

https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=cafb27be-b52e-4614-aa64-f2782942aeca&subId=407837

also please read this swiss leaked report . now remember that rafale score highly than f18 c/d with pesa radar in air to air. with aesa radar its range is increased by 50 percent.

Agree with Meteor being the superior missile. But as far as the platform is concerned, Rafale does not seem to have a clear advantage over the F-16 Block 70.

 

[Tang]

Agree with Meteor being the superior missile. But as far as the platform is concerned, Rafale does not seem to have a clear advantage over the F-16 Block 70.

What do you call a clear advantage?

Better radar
Better aerodynamics
Better range
Better payload
Lower RCS
Better armament

Now coming to price Rafale and F16 will cost as almost the same with a $20-30 million difference, While Rafale provides a clear advantage.

Now let me ask a question what if Rafale would be an american product and f16 would be a euro one
Which would USAF choose?

 

[Tang]

ow coming to price Rafale and F16 will cost as almost the same with a $20-30 million difference, While Rafale provides a clear advantage.

What do you call a clear advantage?

Better radar
Better aerodynamics
Better range
Better payload
Lower RCS
Better armament

Now coming to price Rafale and F16 will cost as almost the same with a $20-30 million difference, While Rafale provides a clear advantage.

Now let me ask a question what if Rafale would be an american product and f16 would be a euro one
Which would USAF choose?

Frankly F16 now just provide industrial supply chain advantage wrt future orders and sustainment if it ever clears trails.
Now what India needs is to get a better deal with Dassault regarding ToT,
Specially the spectra part.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

That's perplexing to me. I just compare the F-16 with what the IAF operates or have operated in Ladakh (Did IAF operate Jaguars there?) In particular, F-16 has a better T/W ratio, and I daresay better reliability, than Su-30 that it operates in Ladakh.

So my conclusion is that it's not F-16 that's the issue here, which in its block70 configuration is on par with Rafale and all 4.5 gen fighters in the market, rather the issue is reflexive hesitancy against US frontline fighters.

Jags are twin engines , raffles are twin engines .

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Further, I believe F-16's F110 engine has better performance and reliability than the AL-31 used by Su-30. So F-16's disqualification is a headscratcher.

Pakstaan operates f 16 too , that's why.