F-16 Viper

[Wisemarko]

Please read more about MMRCA and why 4 contenders failed in LEH trials.

As per IAF Rafale is edge we need against J20 until AMCA comes in.

USAF have F35 and F22 as the tip of the spear against China and f16 as an old dog for other works,

IAF will never accept any aircraft less than Rafale.

We live in very hostile environment, unlike USA

Rafale (or any other 4th Gen) cannot match any 5th Gen fighter. Let’s not continue pointless arguments. If India was serious about matching China, would have asked for F-35 and work towards getting that.

Its not the cold air. The main problem is lower air density due to the altitude. The kind of havoc it wreaks on the jets, their mtow capability and range is a well known fact.
The Chinese jets basically take off with less than half the payloads from their side.
I am only saying this about the Leh trials and not about whether F16 is good/bad for IAF. You do have a point in getting a good enough platform quickly (maybe the fastest possible way), but then again, it will probably be difficult to understand as an American why it is a difficult choice for India to either get the airframes with delays or get the Murican noose that comes free of cost with the F16s.
PS I am not trying to offend anybody.

All jets pay the penalty of “hot and high” ops so don’t know why single-out F16. It has same thrust to weight ratio as Rafale.

 

[gutenmorgen]

Rafale (or any other 4th Gen) cannot match any 5th Gen fighter. Let’s not continue pointless arguments. If India was serious about matching China, would have asked for F-35 and work towards getting that.


All jets pay the penalty of “hot and high” ops so don’t know why single-out F16. It has same thrust to weight ratio as Rafale.

Higher mtow is one reason that comes to mind. Granted, those conditions will compromise the mtow capabilities of any aircraft but Rafale having higher mtow means it will still carry more ammunition/fuel than a F16.
Also, just to point it out, it is easy to say that there was some bias against f16, and there maybe some, due to the reason I pointed before, but Himalayas really are a special place for the kind of adversity it throws against aviation (anything living or manmade really). Without adequate preparation, some tourists die just landing into Leh on a regular basis because of low density air and even lower O2 concentration. The reason for a failed Leh trial could be as simple as PW/GE engines just not liking those conditions and could be dealt with a simple fix. But you cant say that it is an impossibility either because they were never designed or tested for those conditions before.

 

[Trololo]

Few points:

1> F-16 V is a very capable aircraft.
2> It comes with very good electronics, vast array of weapons, and other combat accessories that are necessary (like towed decoy, jammer pod, etc)
3> Any country that buys the F-16V will not regret the purchase. Its a very capable machine and can hold its own against contemporary adversaries.

With respect to India:

1> US frontline combat aircraft is a strict no-no. Just as we saw with the Covid vaccine raw materials case, one can never fully trust the US to deliver at crucial times.
2> Induction of the F-16V will lead to a new type and new breed of system in our already congested plane zoo. It means new weapons, new mission systems, new insfrastructure, etc. Also, US will be very averse to us modifying the F-16V for our needs. Only Israel is allowed to do so at the moment.
3> India's MWF will cater to our needs of an advanced single engine workhorse aircraft. And it will be substantially better than the F-16V and will have a lot of room for improvement. The V is the crescendo of the F-16 design.
4> MWF is what is going to give us an accurate image of our aircraft industry's state as of now, and will also supercharge this industry for the future. Remember that engines are still a major headache for India.

So all said and done, the F-16V should not be procured for India, even though its a wonderful machine.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Rafale (or any other 4th Gen) cannot match any 5th Gen fighter. Let’s not continue pointless arguments. If India was serious about matching China, would have asked for F-35 and work towards getting that.


All jets pay the penalty of “hot and high” ops so don’t know why single-out F16. It has same thrust to weight ratio as Rafale.

F 16 are done and dusted we aren't buying it.

And how are they better than Sukhoi or Rafale ?

With Rafale we can uprate the engine for higher thrust or use an indian engine in future.

In a Dog fight they can't match Mig 29s either.

Now with Indian AESA and avionics available for Tejas we will rather extend the upgrade to other fighter jets we have .

We have already retired older migs of several kind and their replacement is Tejas not F-16s.

 

[asianobserve]

F 16 are done and dusted we aren't buying it.

And how are they better than Sukhoi or Rafale ?

With Rafale we can uprate the engine for higher thrust or use an indian engine in future.

In a Dog fight they can't match Mig 29s either.

Now with Indian AESA and avionics available for Tejas we will rather extend the upgrade to other fighter jets we have .

We have already retired older migs of several kind and their replacement is Tejas not F-16s.

Dogfights are overrated. In fact Sukhois were nutralized by older PAF F-16s from far away. And giant Sukhois 30s are the worst to be in case of a dogfight with smaller and very nimble F-16s, especially with HMDs and AIM 9x.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Dogfights are overrated. In fact Sukhois were nutralized by older PAF F-16s from far away. And giant Sukhois 30s are the worst to be in case of a dogfight with smaller and very nimble F-16s, especially with HMDs and AIM 9x.

Not neutralized they stupidly fired those bvr at max range knowing fully they will never hit them.

A missile cost over 2 mn a dollar wasting 4 of that means 8 mn + gone in vain.

Porks get it for free in aid so doesn't matter to them but other countries don't get them as freebies.

F-16s with block 70 package are no more as agile and nimble they used to be and Sukhoi are still more maneuverable

Sukhoi can still spot F-16s from a far away distance all they need is weapon upgrade which they are getting with Derby ER and in future with K77/SFDR etc.

And the already have R73 MICA ASRAAM and in future K73 Astra IR etc add to that Elbit will be replaced by newer lighter advanced DRDO HMD .

 

[asianobserve]

Not neutralized they stupidly fired those bvr at max range knowing fully they will never hit them.

A missile cost over 2 mn a dollar wasting 4 of that means 8 mn + gone in vain.

Porks get it for free in aid so doesn't matter to them but other countries don't get them as freebies.

Had the giant Sukhois been closer the AMRAAMS may have found target. You see the biggest liability of Sukhoi 30s in modern combat is its size. Without stealth shaping and coating Sukhoi 30s are easily picked up on radar, especially if they turn on their powerful N011M radar.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Had the giant Sukhois been closer the AMRAAMS may have found target. You see the biggest liability of Sukhoi 30s in modern combat is its size. Without stealth shaping and coating Sukhoi 30s are easily picked up on radar, especially if they turn on their powerful N011M radar.

Why do you think Porks fired those missiles and ran away ?

They knew the moment Su reach near they'll be just fried bacon for them.

Also you must know those giant radars when on, share data with LCAs like MiG-21/29 ( now Tejas ) which will be ahead of su and will fire sweet Astra/Derby ER which will only became more lethal with K77/SFDR combo .

Sukhoi will be used at its strength not at its disadvantage.

 

[asianobserve]

Why do you think Porks fired those missiles and ran away ?

They knew the moment Su reach near they'll be just fried bacon for them.

Also you must know those giant radars when on, share data with LCAs like MiG-21/29 ( now Tejas ) which will be ahead of su and will fire sweet Astra/Derby ER which will only became more lethal with K77/SFDR combo .

Sukhoi will be used at its strength not at its disadvantage.

Then Sukhoi's strength is not dogfighting but serving as mini AWACs from the back.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Then Sukhoi's strength is not dogfighting but serving as mini AWACs from the back.

Dogfighting is its strength when there will be a merge which will in our case.

It is being used as miniawacs sort of and once get the GaN based AESA upgrade will be used full time for that role.

Also it can deploy huge awacs killer missiles which will get better with newer ramjet version. It can deploy french mica to indian Russia missile arsenal like Brahmos.

And F-16 can't fill that role neither we require them to do that for us. What we need is cost effective small advanced fighter jet like Tejas /Gripen with a very low RCS.

F-16 no more fit into our doctrine it's a good fighter jet but not for us.

 

[asianobserve]

Dogfighting is its strength when there will be a merge which will in our case.

It is being used as miniawacs sort of and once get the GaN based AESA upgrade will be used full time for that role.

Also it can deploy huge awacs killer missiles which will get better with newer ramjet version. It can deploy french mica to indian Russia missile arsenal like Brahmos.

And F-16 can't fill that role neither we require them to do that for us. What we need is cost effective small advanced fighter jet like Tejas /Gripen with a very low RCS.

F-16 no more fit into our doctrine it's a good fighter jet but not for us.

SABR radar is smarter, better and more reliable than any Sukhoi radar. Sukhoi cannot sneak on Block 70 F-16 or the APG-82 equipped F-16Cs. And in modern warfare, see first means shoot first.

F-16 Blk70 is one of the most cost effective 4 or 4.5th gen fighter out there. The only fighter that comes out better on cost given the level of capability and technology is GripenE.

 

[Flying Dagger]

SABR radar is smarter, better and more reliable than any Sukhoi radar. Sukhoi cannot sneak on Block 70 F-16 or the APG-82 equipped F-16Cs. And in modern warfare, see first means shoot first.

F-16 Blk70 is one of the most cost effective 4 or 4.5th gen fighter out there. The only fighter that comes out better on cost given the level of capability and technology is GripenE.

Sukhoi costed us less than 38mn dollar beat that price while Mig 29 upg were less than 30mn a piece in 2010 while old one upgraded for less than 15mn a piece. A Tejas mk1a cost just over 40mn a piece. If we go for a full fledge upgrade of these platform that will provide better specs than f-16 even that will cost us lesser than f-16s.

In terms of price even Su57 will be cheaper than F-16s while many times better.

And Sukhoi can easily spot a F-16 over 100s of km but is there any weapon that can target them in such ranges? we have been over this multiple times in this forum.

 

[asianobserve]

Sukhoi costed us less than 38mn dollar beat that price while Mig 29 upg were less than 30mn a piece in 2010 while old one upgraded for less than 15mn a piece. A Tejas mk1a cost just over 40mn a piece. If we go for a full fledge upgrade of these platform that will provide better specs than f-16 even that will cost us lesser than f-16s.

In terms of price even Su57 will be cheaper than F-16s while many times better.

And Sukhoi can easily spot a F-16 over 100s of km but is there any weapon that can target them in such ranges? we have been over this multiple times in this forum.

If price us an issue then Russian jets will win. But as the saying goes, you pay peanuts and you get monkeys.

 

[Wisemarko]

F 16 are done and dusted we aren't buying it.

And how are they better than Sukhoi or Rafale ?

With Rafale we can uprate the engine for higher thrust or use an indian engine in future.

In a Dog fight they can't match Mig 29s either.

Now with Indian AESA and avionics available for Tejas we will rather extend the upgrade to other fighter jets we have .

We have already retired older migs of several kind and their replacement is Tejas not F-16s.

F-16V is better than any IAF aircraft in avionics, armament, sensors, reliability and EW except Rafale.

I doubt any IAF MiG-21 pilot flying that shuddering craft shares your juvenile view on utility of a modern jet that is badly needed.

 

[Trololo]

Repeating again: F16s have absolutely no place in our Air Force. MWF will fill our requirement for a single engine workhorse fighter, while LCA Mk1 and Mk1A will replace MiG 21s and replenish some squadron numbers.

 

[Wisemarko]

Repeating again: F16s have absolutely no place in our Air Force. MWF will fill our requirement for a single engine workhorse fighter, while LCA Mk1 and Mk1A will replace MiG 21s and replenish some squadron numbers.

I don’t think buying more fighter jets is a priority for Covid devastated India right now. I also do not see other fighter jet buy than a repeat order for few Rafale in years to come.

Looking at current LCA production rate, IAF pilots will be flying MiG-21 for many years to come.

 

[Tang]

F-16V is better than any IAF aircraft in avionics, armament, sensors, reliability and EW except Rafale.

I doubt any IAF MiG-21 pilot flying that shuddering craft shares your juvenile view on utility of a modern jet that is badly needed.

The point is that, avionics, armament, sensors, reliability and EW can all be upgraded, we have upgraded both Mig29 Su30 and a major mid life upgrade is coming for Su30,

And I am repeating it again for F16 fan boys
MMRCA will not replace our MiG-21, Tejas will and it is doing that,
MMRCA fighter will be our tip of the sword,
F16V does not qualify for that, heck it won't be able to compete with our upgraded MIG29 let alone Su30MKI.
And if F16v would be so good USAF will be considering a 5- gen fighter for production.
Even USAF need a Rafale type of fighter.

 

[Tang]

I don’t think buying more fighter jets is a priority for Covid devastated India right now. I also do not see other fighter jet buy than a repeat order for few Rafale in years to come.

Looking at current LCA production rate, IAF pilots will be flying MiG-21 for many years to come.

Don't be so salty, MiG-21 will all be replaced by 2025 or earlier.
Ask US defence industry to create better product than Rafale, then we can talk.

Regards

 

[Tang]

Dogfights are overrated. In fact Sukhois were nutralized by older PAF F-16s from far away. And giant Sukhois 30s are the worst to be in case of a dogfight with smaller and very nimble F-16s, especially with HMDs and AIM 9x.

Even in Vietnam war, we heard the same by USAF, isn't it
Btw Su30MKI were at lower altitude than F16 that time, and further Su30 could not cross LOC due to operational req.
While 4-5 AMRAAM failed to even give a scratch to a Su30
Su30 has TVC, Supermaneuverability and better aerodynamics that f16, so in a dogfight it will always dust it down.

 

[Wisemarko]

Don't be so salty, MiG-21 will all be replaced by 2025 or earlier.
Ask US defence industry to create better product than Rafale, then we can talk.

Regards

Replaced with what? There are around 100 Mig-21 in IAF. What is the replacement rate with LCA?

Better product than Rafale exists already that every major airforce in the world is buying. Fanboys