Exciting Times for Chinese Aircraft Engines!

[MiG-29SMT]

That is correct the British (Dutch) Engines are still superior. Nazi German/Roman Catholic engines still a bit better. Rome and the US South , a lands of slavers. Look at the proud comments of successful conquests or manipulations of Chinese girls. Getting into a persons mind. Would be very profitable to get into the minds of Chinese soldiers, kill a bunch of Indians, create a threat of war, then sell billions in weapons and loot India.
Cheer loud enough for the slavers and perhaps they will return, breaking through the line your ydna haplogroup R1a cousins in Russia have set up to keep them out.

very poetic, but I hardly can understand it.

I will tell you my opinion, in aerospace related views.

Aerospace is a business, there is big risks when aircraft built in fact are high and the worst sometimes they are economically a failure.

watch this video

You will see aircraft like MD-11 never achieved a descent profit
here are some aircraft worth to know why were not sucessful

People think any aircraft is successful but the reality is very hard to design and build aircraft.

The return of investment in many projects is so bad for example Convair 880 or even Tristar L1011.

The jet engine bussiness is the same, jet engines take many years to fruition and that even is not an assurance they will have success.

International cooperation then is the best way to reduce and limit the risks.

A nation like Mexico can not really tried to enter the aircraft industry without sales in fact no Nation

On a truly business endeavor, is not the technology what matters but also the sales.

Japan has not really a successful aircraft in MRJ, same is Antonov An-148 or even Sukhoi Superjet 100.

The Chinese ARJ-21 is a failure but has been covered by Chinese government purchases, is like you make lemonade and you buy your own lemonade .

At this moment the only successful companies are Bombardier, Airbus, Boeing, and Embraer, thus all the engines powering these projects are winning.

China by going alone has very chance of success, specially since going alone means you you bear all the investment.

Brazil is not the main buyer of E-190.

MTU and IHI are companies thus they become suppliers to GE, Safran or RRs.

Motor Sich has the same problem they have low sales and the investment return is difficult to get.

At the end of the road collaboration is the best,In Mexico they knew it thus as such we are suppliers and we work for the main aircraft companies assuring us income either in Salaries or local suppliers

 

[rockdog]

very poetic, but I hardly can understand it.


I will tell you my opinion, in aerospace related views.


Aerospace is a business, there is big risks when aircraft built in fact are high and the worst sometimes they are economically a failure.


watch this video



You will see aircraft like MD-11 never achieved a descent profit

here are some aircraft worth to know why were not sucessful


1644545610427.png

1644545929700.png



1644545702267.png


1644545867056.png

1644546173981.png


1644546048408.png


People think any aircraft is successful but the reality is very hard to design and build aircraft.


The return of investment in many projects is so bad for example Convair 880 or even Tristar L1011.


The jet engine bussiness is the same, jet engines take many years to fruition and that even is not an assurance they will have success.


International cooperation then is the best way to reduce and limit the risks.


A nation like Mexico can not really tried to enter the aircraft industry without sales in fact no Nation

1644546537644.png


On a truly business endeavor, is not the technology what matters but also the sales.


Japan has not really a successful aircraft in MRJ, same is Antonov An-148 or even Sukhoi Superjet 100.


The Chinese ARJ-21 is a failure but has been covered by Chinese government purchases, is like you make lemonade and you buy your own lemonade .


At this moment the only successful companies are Bombardier, Airbus, Boeing, and Embraer, thus all the engines powering these projects are winning.


China by going alone has very chance of success, specially since going alone means you you bear all the investment.


Brazil is not the main buyer of E-190.


MTU and IHI are companies thus they become suppliers to GE, Safran or RRs.


1644547048740.png


Motor Sich has the same problem they have low sales and the investment return is difficult to get.


At the end of the road collaboration is the best,In Mexico they knew it thus as such we are suppliers and we work for the main aircraft companies assuring us income either in Salaries or local suppliers

There are some strategic industries, you have to invest in long term regardless P&L.

Civil aviation industry is the exact one. Theoratcially, if China stop all its HSR system construction, but buying 1000+ ARJ21 & C919, it would make these two planes profitble in 10 years.


But the CN government choose keep both industries investing money, since both are strategic.


Nations with population as 100 million class don't need to consider problem like this. They just do some sub contract job for GE, Being, GM, Ford, or even distribute the drug if nearby USA, they would survive.



For the ARJ21 issue, by 2021 it delivered 55, the failed one called MRJ


As of November 2021, more than 60 ARJ21 aircraft have been delivered, with Chengdu Airlines boasting the largest fleet. ARJ21 is China's first turbofan regional passenger jetliner

Indonesian regional airline Transnusa to be the first overseas operator using Chinese made ARJ21: report - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

The failed one:


Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation is to cut 95 per cent of the employees working on its troubled SpaceJet aircraft
Move is final nail in the coffin for a project that was supposed to jump-start a Japanese domestic aerospace industry

SpaceJet fail leaves Japan’s aviation dream in tatters (and don’t blame Covid)

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation is to cut 95 per cent of its SpaceJet workers, a final nail in the coffin of a project supposed to jump-start a Japanese domestic aerospace industry.

www.scmp.com

 

[MiG-29SMT]

There are some strategic industries, you have to invest in long term regardless P&L.

Civil aviation industry is the exact one. Theoratcially, if China stop all its HSR system construction, but buying 1000+ ARJ21 & C919, it would make these two planes profitble in 10 years.


But the CN government choose keep both industries investing money, since both are strategic.


Nations with population as 100 million class don't need to consider problem like this. They just do some sub contract job for GE, Being, GM, Ford, or even distribute the drug if nearby USA, they would survive.



For the ARJ21 issue, by 2021 it delivered 55, the failed one called MRJ


As of November 2021, more than 60 ARJ21 aircraft have been delivered, with Chengdu Airlines boasting the largest fleet. ARJ21 is China's first turbofan regional passenger jetliner

Indonesian regional airline Transnusa to be the first overseas operator using Chinese made ARJ21: report - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

The failed one:


Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation is to cut 95 per cent of the employees working on its troubled SpaceJet aircraft
Move is final nail in the coffin for a project that was supposed to jump-start a Japanese domestic aerospace industry

SpaceJet fail leaves Japan’s aviation dream in tatters (and don’t blame Covid)

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation is to cut 95 per cent of its SpaceJet workers, a final nail in the coffin of a project supposed to jump-start a Japanese domestic aerospace industry.

www.scmp.com

The Japanese aircraft is a truly market oriented aircraft, ARJ-21 is not, it is a soviet style aircraft, the government finances it and the government buys it by airliners controlled mostly by the government and by imposition, they have to buy it not by performance but by keeping the aircraft from not being purchased.

In reality 55 orders in 2021 is nothing since you make lemonade you buy your own lemonade.

The difficulty of making aircraft is hard, that is the reason every one is going by international cooperation is that I will give you an example.
this is the Horizontec Halcon, compared to ARJ-21 well is a less complex aircraft, it is made of composites, but it only costs 150,000, it has a range of 1200km and it spends 15 liters of gasoline per 250km.

So you can understand it, they did not make a jet, there are mini turbines true, they can built it with turbines but they went for range and gas.

Así es el Halcón 2, el avión experimental Made in Guanajuato

El avión experimental fue presentado en la tercera edición de la Industrial Transformation México (ITM)

www.elsoldemexico.com.mx

Do you think is different ARJ-21?

First is its liter per kilometer by passenger, do you think China has a really good jet engine?
The problem with aviation is always money, is not that in Mexico we can not build a small jet aircraft.
The problem is make money, perhaps the Horizontec might be successful, perhaps not, but the investment is low, compared it with ARJ-21 or E-195, if it successful they will go for a 5 seats and perhaps in 15 year a business jet, but now first is looking for market, this company goes for a very low risk aircraft with the lowest price and the highest possible performance.

For China the best is cooperation but you have bad reputation.
Embraer set a plant in China, it was not successful because China really did not help,same is Russia, China always cheats.

Who wants to invest in a country they cheat you?

I am sure China will built jet engines, but eventually if you are smart you will understand cooperation is the best, do not cheat pays off.

For example a Chinese-Indian aircraft could be ok, even a Chinese Brazilian but already ERJ-135 from Embraer was built in China and China never bought many.

For 13 years, Embraer produced some of its ERJ145s in China. This was the result of a joint venture with the Harbin Aircraft Industry Group (HAIG). This company came into being 69 years ago, in 1952. Its aim at the time was to produce airliners for the Chinese domestic market. It takes its name from the city of Harbin, in Heilongjiang Province.
Harbin assembled examples of the ERJ145 for Chinese carriers, although the parts were shipped in from Embraer's facilities elsewhere in the world. In total, the partnership resulted in the production of over 40 ERJ145s in China, as well as five Embraer Legacy 650s. The legacy is a business jet variant of Embraer's existing ERJ family.

The joint venture eventually came to an end in March 2016, after 13 years of Chinese ERJ145 production. The last delivery of a Harbin-built ERJ145 took place in March that year. Four years later, in 2020, the production of the ERJ series ended altogether. Many examples remain active in both military and commercial service with regional carriers worldwide.

https://simpleflying.com/china-erj145-production/

 

[rockdog]

The Japanese aircraft is a truly market oriented aircraft, ARJ-21 is not, it is a soviet style aircraft, the government finances it and the government buys it by airliners controlled mostly by the government and by imposition, they have to buy it not by performance but by keeping the aircraft from not being purchased.

In reality 55 orders in 2021 is nothing since you make lemonade you buy your own lemonade.

LOL, by your logic:

ERJ is good project since it's truly market oriented, even it didn't sell any piece.

ARJ21 is failed and soviet style project, since it's started to fulfill the domestic demand, even it has mostly western subsystems. 55 Orders means that's are 55 planes demand on the market, you would check the stock price from those airlines company who purchased them, they are not fool.

Don't be naive, both Boeing and Airbus got help from government at the beginning. Only weak government dosen't do so.

Plus those ARJ21 + HSR system preventing 1000 Boeing 737 and Airbus 320 purchse who serving 500-1200KM travel, which saves 100 billion USD; and those money would circulate into our own industry, that's quite good deal.

The difficulty of making aircraft is hard, that is the reason every one is going by international cooperation is that I will give you an example.
this is the Horizontec Halcon, compared to ARJ-21 well is a less complex aircraft, it is made of composites, but it only costs 150,000, it has a range of 1200km and it spends 15 liters of gasoline per 250km.

So you can understand it, they did not make a jet, there are mini turbines true, they can built it with turbines but they went for range and gas.

Así es el Halcón 2, el avión experimental Made in Guanajuato

El avión experimental fue presentado en la tercera edición de la Industrial Transformation México (ITM)

www.elsoldemexico.com.mx

The ARJ21 is competing with Boeing 737 and Airbus320 in local market on 500-800KM airlines, it has advantage. Let the Boeing and Airbus to go 1000KM+, C919 will come later soon.

View attachment 137236

Do you think is different ARJ-21?

First is its liter per kilometer by passenger, do you think China has a really good jet engine?
The problem with aviation is always money, is not that in Mexico we can not build a small jet aircraft.
The problem is make money, perhaps the Horizontec might be successful, perhaps not, but the investment is low, compared it with ARJ-21 or E-195, if it successful they will go for a 5 seats and perhaps in 15 year a business jet, but now first is looking for market, this company goes for a very low risk aircraft with the lowest price and the highest possible performance.

For China the best is cooperation but you have bad reputation.
Embraer set a plant in China, it was not successful because China really did not help,same is Russia, China always cheats.

Who wants to invest in a country they cheat you?

I am sure China will built jet engines, but eventually if you are smart you will understand cooperation is the best, do not cheat pays off.

China was fooled by MD82 project by USA during 1990s, it's a long story. aviation industry is full of political calculation, that's why China wants to make own ARJ21 and C919.

this is the Horizontec Halcon, compared to ARJ-21 well is a less complex aircraft, it is made of composites, but it only costs 150,000, it has a range of 1200km and it spends 15 liters of gasoline per 250km.

So you can understand it, they did not make a jet, there are mini turbines true, they can built it with turbines but they went for range and gas.

Así es el Halcón 2, el avión experimental Made in Guanajuato

El avión experimental fue presentado en la tercera edición de la Industrial Transformation México (ITM)

www.elsoldemexico.com.mx

You compare a bike with SUV, and writing shit ton of search pages ... But they are different categories.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

LOL, by your logic:

ERJ is good project since it's truly market oriented, even it didn't sell any piece.

ARJ21 is failed and soviet style project, since it's started to fulfill the domestic demand, even it has mostly western subsystems. 55 Orders means that's are 55 planes demand on the market, you would check the stock price from those airlines company who purchased them, they are not fool.

Don't be naive, both Boeing and Airbus got help from government at the beginning. Only weak government dosen't do so.

Plus those ARJ21 + HSR system preventing 1000 Boeing 737 and Airbus 320 purchse who serving 500-1200KM travel, which saves 100 billion USD; and those money would circulate into our own industry, that's quite good deal.




The ARJ21 is competing with Boeing 737 and Airbus320 in local market on 500-800KM airlines, it has advantage. Let the Boeing and Airbus to go 1000KM+, C919 will come later soon.



China was fooled by MD82 project by USA during 1990s, it's a long story. aviation industry is full of political calculation, that's why China wants to make own ARJ21 and C919.




You compare a bike with SUV, and writing shit ton of search pages ... But they are different categories.

​

Comac ARJ21-900	versus	Embraer E190-E2
36.35 m	119 ft 3 in	length	36.20 m	118 ft 9 in
27.28 m	89 ft 6 in	wingspan	33.70 m	110 ft 7 in
79.86 m2	860 ft2	wingarea	103.00 m2	1,109 ft2
8.44 m	27 ft 8 in	height	11.00 m	36 ft 1 in
2	engines	2
82 kN	18,500 lbf	thrust per engine	85 kN	19,000 lbf
164 kN	37,000 lbf	total thrust	170 kN	38,000 lbf
43,616 kgs	96,000 lbs	MTOW	56,200 kgs	124,000 lbs
2,200 km	1,188 nm	range	5,330 km	2,878 nm
M0.78	cruise speed	M0.82
98 passengers	capacity	97 passengers
105 passengers	max. capacity	106 passengers

Numbers do not lie, E-190 has better range thus is more efficient

Comac ARJ21-900 vs. Embraer E190-E2

Comac ARJ21-900 vs. Embraer E190-E2

www.aviatorjoe.net

https://simpleflying.com/arj21-vs-e190-e2/

yes Horizontec is small, but Remember it flies 1200 km for less than 75 liters of gasoline, 1/5 of a E-190, yes It is a Bicycle compared to a USV but a pretty good bicycle.

What you did not get is the price passenger/ Fuel/kilometer that is what matters in aircraft, a good powerplant and good aerodynamics and low weight the Horizontec is very advanced do not get confused

 

[rockdog]

​

Comac ARJ21-900	versus	Embraer E190-E2
36.35 m	119 ft 3 in	length	36.20 m	118 ft 9 in
27.28 m	89 ft 6 in	wingspan	33.70 m	110 ft 7 in
79.86 m2	860 ft2	wingarea	103.00 m2	1,109 ft2
8.44 m	27 ft 8 in	height	11.00 m	36 ft 1 in
2	engines	2
82 kN	18,500 lbf	thrust per engine	85 kN	19,000 lbf
164 kN	37,000 lbf	total thrust	170 kN	38,000 lbf
43,616 kgs	96,000 lbs	MTOW	56,200 kgs	124,000 lbs
2,200 km	1,188 nm	range	5,330 km	2,878 nm
M0.78	cruise speed	M0.82
98 passengers	capacity	97 passengers
105 passengers	max. capacity	106 passengers

Numbers do not lie, E-190 has better range thus is more efficient

Comac ARJ21-900 vs. Embraer E190-E2

Comac ARJ21-900 vs. Embraer E190-E2

www.aviatorjoe.net

https://simpleflying.com/arj21-vs-e190-e2/

yes Horizontec is small, but Remember it flies 1200 km for less than 75 liters of gasoline, 1/5 of a E-190, yes It is a Bicycle compared to a USV but a pretty good bicycle.

What you did not get is the price passenger/ Fuel/kilometer that is what matters in aircraft, a good powerplant and good aerodynamics and low weight the Horizontec is very advanced do not get confused

1. Commercial jet is never pure commercial market, if so when Beoing dominated world, there was no need airbus.

2. then why you mention horizontec, there is Sesnar already.

3. If you really want to connect horizontec with arj21. let say deliver 100 passengers, i think arj21 needs two pilots right? how many for horizontec，10 pilots？

 

[MiG-29SMT]

1. Commercial jet is never pure commercial market, if so when Beoing dominated world, there was no need airbus.

2. then why you mention horizontec, there is Sesnar already.

3. If you really want to connect horizontec with arj21. let say deliver 100 passengers, i think arj21 needs two pilots right? how many for horizontec，10 pilots？

You are too defensive.

My point is not compare a light sport class aircraft with a regional jet as they are different types, my point is you see in commercial aircraft range is very important, these translates into a good powerplant and good aerodynamics and good construction technics.

Horizontec uses composites, so it is very very light, but it is a good aircraft in its class.

ARJ-21 is designed for ranges in China, but is not designed in reality with all the features it needs to be a real competitor to A-220 or E-190 that is the reason they are the dominant planes.

ARJ-21 uses western engines and advanced engines, now what happens if you do not have a better engine, I mean Chinese jet engine?

Add E-190 has a well developed logistics, China can not compete even using western tech, because of course ARJ-21 requires more investment than Horizontec, the light sport plane is low investment, so it is a Mexican company, but if we go for a light jet or commercial aircraft we can not in Mexico go alone, that is the reason we are providers, perhaps later we might make a joint venture who knows, but do not think China is assure success, aircraft manufacture is pretty hard for any country or company.

 

[rockdog]

ARJ-21 uses western engines and advanced engines, now what happens if you do not have a better engine, I mean Chinese jet engine?

Add E-190 has a well developed logistics, China can not compete even using western tech, because of course ARJ-21 requires more investment than Horizontec, the light sport plane is low investment, so it is a Mexican company, but if we go for a light jet or commercial aircraft we can not in Mexico go alone, that is the reason we are providers, perhaps later we might make a joint venture who knows, but do not think China is assure success, aircraft manufacture is pretty hard for any country or company.

Building a controll-able supply chain on commercial jet industry dosen't mean we can't use any western tech. If we use all indigenous system, you would call it "Soviet style". We build our industry is not for your happy or not, but for national intrest.

Past 5 yrs operations in China already proven that ARJ21 very suitable to inter-conection between 3rd/4th tier cities. By this arrangment, it has competitiveness over Boeing 737 and local HSR system.

It's already a successful project inside China, there are 500 orders and already touch the breakeven point, the problem is how to get more orders from oversea. The E-190 might have advantage alone, but if ARJ21 export with some government credit, it still have lots of chances. My friends company is already working on some supportive IT system for ARJ21's forgein clients.

As i said again, commericial jet is also a political industry, our government would leverage lots of thing to generate sales, and it already started, i don't see Brazil government is that capable.

News from last year, Southern Airlines quit the last E-190 for inside Xinjiang operations.

南航最后一架ERJ190退役，那对ERJ190你了解多少？

2021年1月，南航最后一架ERJ190结束商业运营，正式退役，该机型在南航的十年也划上了一个圆满句号。 E-190喷气飞机(98－114座级)和E-195喷气飞机(108－122座级)。该系列飞机专为支线市场全新设计，采用了包括从前…

zhuanlan.zhihu.com

After the execution of flight cz8731, the last e190 aircraft of China Southern Airlines Xinjiang Branch ended its commercial flight in Xinjiang and officially retired.

 

[THESIS THORON]

@hit&run

4th wumao spotted in 5 hrs

pls do the needful

 

[smartnet]

You are too defensive.

My point is not compare a light sport class aircraft with a regional jet as they are different types, my point is you see in commercial aircraft range is very important, these translates into a good powerplant and good aerodynamics and good construction technics.

Horizontec uses composites, so it is very very light, but it is a good aircraft in its class.

ARJ-21 is designed for ranges in China, but is not designed in reality with all the features it needs to be a real competitor to A-220 or E-190 that is the reason they are the dominant planes.

ARJ-21 uses western engines and advanced engines, now what happens if you do not have a better engine, I mean Chinese jet engine?

Add E-190 has a well developed logistics, China can not compete even using western tech, because of course ARJ-21 requires more investment than Horizontec, the light sport plane is low investment, so it is a Mexican company, but if we go for a light jet or commercial aircraft we can not in Mexico go alone, that is the reason we are providers, perhaps later we might make a joint venture who knows, but do not think China is assure success, aircraft manufacture is pretty hard for any country or company.

Commercial aircraft companies are all subsidized by the government, both Airbus and Boeing.
Japan's MRJ has been cancelled.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Building a controll-able supply chain on commercial jet industry dosen't mean we can't use any western tech. If we use all indigenous system, you would call it "Soviet style". We build our industry is not for your happy or not, but for national intrest.

Past 5 yrs operations in China already proven that ARJ21 very suitable to inter-conection between 3rd/4th tier cities. By this arrangment, it has competitiveness over Boeing 737 and local HSR system.

It's already a successful project inside China, there are 500 orders and already touch the breakeven point, the problem is how to get more orders from oversea. The E-190 might have advantage alone, but if ARJ21 export with some government credit, it still have lots of chances. My friends company is already working on some supportive IT system for ARJ21's forgein clients.

As i said again, commericial jet is also a political industry, our government would leverage lots of thing to generate sales, and it already started, i don't see Brazil government is that capable.

News from last year, Southern Airlines quit the last E-190 for inside Xinjiang operations.

南航最后一架ERJ190退役，那对ERJ190你了解多少？

2021年1月，南航最后一架ERJ190结束商业运营，正式退役，该机型在南航的十年也划上了一个圆满句号。 E-190喷气飞机(98－114座级)和E-195喷气飞机(108－122座级)。该系列飞机专为支线市场全新设计，采用了包括从前…

zhuanlan.zhihu.com

After the execution of flight cz8731, the last e190 aircraft of China Southern Airlines Xinjiang Branch ended its commercial flight in Xinjiang and officially retired.

Why you have such a childish attitude, Brazil can not do India can not do Mexico can not do?

Have a realistic view Brazil is commercial aircraft is the third largest manufacturer

All nations have national interest, but you are denying reality.

The Chinese government can order by mandate do not use E-190, use our inferior ARJ-21 that is soviet style polices.

Add please a translation I always do it so you can see Spanish links.

Rolls Royce is one of the top builders of jet engines do you know why?

The answer they are really good leaders, They have Mexicans and Spanish designing for them, Frisa makes them jet engine outer parts casings, they have MTU and IHI allied to them.

Your logic is over simplistic, under your view RR should make everything in England but they do not do it.

tell me who is world leader WS-20 or the Trent engines?

Answer is England and England is only 60 million people got it? but behind them are Spain 40 million people, Germany 85 million people, Mexico 130 million , the USA 330 million people

See what Japan does

High-bypass Ratio Turbofan Engines for Civil Aircraft
V2500 turbofan engine
This medium-size engine was developed in an international collaborative project involving Japan, U.S.A., U.K.

GEnx turbofan engine from GE
Installed on Boeing’s next-generation 787 and 747-8 aircraft, the GEnx engine features class-leading environmental performances, fuel efficiency, and reduced operational cost. IHI is participating in the GEnx engine program as a risk and revenue sharing partner. IHI has responsibility for the design, manufacture and assembly of about 13% of the engine, which primarily include the rotating members of the low pressure turbine, the aft part of the high pressure compressor airfoils, and fan mid-shaft.
GE90 turbofan engine

This is an engine with the world's largest engine thrust installed in Boeing 777s. The largest model of this series has a diameter of over 3 m. This engine was jointly developed by a manufacturer group consisting of General Electric （GE） U.S.A. and IHI.


PW1100G－JM Turbo Fan Engine

This engine is jointly developed and produced by US company, Pratt & Whitney, German company, MTU and the Japanese Aero Engines Corporation. PW1100G-JM is adopted on the medium-size Airbus A320 neo.

Aero Engines | Aero Engine, Space and Defense | Products | IHI Corporation

Introduc the IHI Group's Products,Aero Engines

www.ihi.co.jp

Rolls-Royce has agreed to work with IHI Corporation to develop and deliver a future fighter engine demonstrator.
The engine demonstrator programme will be a critical step forward in enabling the two nations to develop their future fighter aircraft requirements, potentially securing hundreds of future jobs in the UK and Japan.
Work on the joint engine demonstrator will kickstart early next year, with the UK investing an initial £30 million in planning, digital designs and innovative manufacturing developments.

Rolls-Royce to develop joint future fighter engine demonstrator with IHI

Rolls-Royce to develop joint future fighter engine demonstrator with IHI

www.rolls-royce.com

MTU at a glance
MTU Aero Engines is Germany’s leading engine manufacturer and an established global player in the industry. We engage in the design, development, manufacture, marketing and support of commercial and military aircraft engines in all thrust and power categories and stationary gas turbines. Operating affiliates all over the world, MTU has a local presence in major regions and markets.
In the commercial engine business, we have content in all thrust and power categories, from propulsion systems for business jets and engines for narrowbody aircraft with geared turbofan technology to the world's most powerful engines. The company is a valued and trusted partner to all of the big players in the industry: GE, Pratt & Whitney and Rolls-Royce.

About us - MTU Aero Engines

MTU´s vision: Emissions-free flight. As Germany’s leading engine manufacturer, we play a role in shaping the future of aviation.

www.mtu.de

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Commercial aircraft companies are all subsidized by the government, both Airbus and Boeing.
Japan's MRJ has been cancelled.

That is partially true, but success depends not in the government but upon the ideas developed and a government does not assure anything

In fact we have learnt in Latin America is if you do not make money outside the government your company is doomed

 

[MonaLazy]

The Chinese ARJ-21 is a failure

Very informative discussion, thank you! ARJ21-700 offers 41% range at 63% cost of ownership compared to E190-E2 which does not look so bad- but it must be the per flying km costs that are killing the ARJ21-700?

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Very informative discussion, thank you! ARJ21-700 offers 41% range at 63% cost of ownership compared to E190-E2 which does not look so bad- but it must be the per flying km costs that are killing the ARJ21-700?

yes the report i linked said that, but also said China might be lying remember Brazil has sold more than 1000 E-190s while ARJ-21 has not recuperated the investment, so the actual price should be higher because they have built much less and the only buyer is the Chinese Government which is the buyer and manufacturer so they are dumping the price

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The ARJ-21 is thriving today despite weaker specs because it is supported by the government. Airbus would never have taken off against Boeing if the EU didn't subsidize it.

In the 1970s, China had the Y-10 and the WS-8 turbofan. Both were cancelled when the Chinese government went into cooperation with the West (like what this Mexican is saying.)

The Y-10 flew 130(!!!) flights with 170 hours of flying time with Pratt and Whitney interim engines while waiting for the WS-8.

It carried hundreds of passengers Beijing, Harbin, Urumqi, Zhengzhou, Hefei, Guangzhou, Kunming, Lhasa and Chengdubefore its retirement in 1984.

It was by all accounts a successful project especially at that point in time and the WS-8 was progressing.

Then everything stopped. Why? Shanghai Aircraft Manufacturing which made the Y-10 was told by the Chinese government that they will go western joint venture full bore and that started with the McDonnell Douglas plant at Shanghai Aircraft and the CAAC which ordered planes for China's airlines was told to cooperate with Boeing (and later Airbus.)

The Joint Venture period in the 1980s was of course fruitful because it gave China not only the MD-80 plant in Shanghai (which form the basis for the ARJ-21) but it also gave China's its first western military turbofan in the RR Spey which was licensed produced in China as the WS-9 for the JH-7. (Better deal than the F404 for LCA!) China later got an Airbus assembly plant in Tianjin and a Boeing plant in Zhousan. So China knows exactly the advantages of cooperation.

But the dark side of it was that it destroyed local initiatives. It also put your most critical projects at the whims of foreign governments.

If the Y-10 and WS-8 had continued, the indigenous commercial scene would have progressed far earlier. The Y-10 had 130 flights with passengers! The WS-8 was China's first commercial turbofan. Anyone today would see that they should have continued.

China found out in the 1990s with the satellite embargo and the stopping of Projects like Peace Pearl (upgrade of J-8) and Super 7 (J-7 replacement) that you can't depend on foreign nations for critical industries like aerospace.

The ARJ-21, the C919 and the CJ1000 programs today are to rectify the damage done through the cancellation of the Y-10 and WS-8.

Indians here know exactly what I am talking despite what the weirdo Mexican says.

Otherwise, why bother with the LCA why not just be part of Eurofighter or F-35 project or simply buy Rafales and F-16s? Because there is geopolitics. India was not asked to be part of those projects even though it is a democracy.

The Y-10:

 

[MonaLazy]

Indians here know exactly what I am talking

Otherwise, why bother with the LCA why not just be part of Eurofighter or F-35 project or simply buy Rafales and F-16s? Because there is geopolitics. India was not asked to be part of those projects even though it is a democracy.

For India, that realisation has long been there- but the money hasn't. An indigenous aircraft was attempted before the LCA in the '60s also, but the Govt baulked at the high cost of developing an engine-

Design work on the all-weather, Mach 2- capable Indian fighter began in 1957. The "X-241" was developed as a full-scale research glider to prove the concept sound at low cost. First flight (by towing) was on April 3rd, 1959 and over 85 flights followed until a failed nosewheel leg led to a crash landing. A full-working prototype reached the skies on June 17th, 1961 and featured twin turbojet engines developing nearly 5,000 lb of thrust each, a single-seat design, and low-mounted swept-wings along a basic cylindrical fuselage. The tail unit featured a single vertical fin with low-mounted elevators along the fuselage sides.

The design advanced as the "Marut" and entered service in a Mk 1 model form during 1967. As the Indian government had pushed ahead with an indigenous nuclear program, more promising engine installations became limited from foreign suppliers which forced the Mk 1 to take on a pair of British Bristol Siddeley Orpheus Mk 703 series turbojet engines of 4,850 lb thrust each. Engine production was therefore local through paid license. Maximum speed reached 690 miles per hour with a combat radius out to 245 miles and service ceiling of 45,100 feet. The forced selection of the Orpheus would forever limit the combat capabilities of the Marut as a frontline fighter and its role therefore moved along the lines of a fighter-bomber / strike platform instead.

HAL HF-24 Marut (Spirit of the Tempest) Supersonic Fighter-Bomber Aircraft

Page details technical specifications, development, and operational history of the HAL HF-24 Marut (Spirit of the Tempest) Supersonic Fighter-Bomber Aircraft including pictures.

www.militaryfactory.com

The performance of the Marut did not live up to HAL’s ambitious promises, however. Its projected performance had been predicated upon the availability of the Rolls-Royce Bristol Orpheus BOr-12, a British-designed afterburning turbojet engine. The Marut was to have been powered by a pair of those engines, each delivering 8,170 pounds of thrust. The British government canceled its financial support for the development of the Orpheus BOr-12, however, and when the Indian government was not prepared to step in and foot the bills, the project was terminated.

Consequently, the Marut had to be fitted with a pair of nonafterburning Orpheus 703s, the engines that HAL was currently building under license for its Gnat lightweight fighters. However, the Orpheus 703 produced only 4,850 pounds of thrust, 44 percent less than the engine for which the Marut had been designed. As a result, the Marut was underpowered and was never able to fulfill its performance potential.

Kurt Tank's Indian Storm

India’s HAL HF-24 Marut confounded detractors with its respectable combat record. The 1971 air war between India and Pakistan was of interest to foreign

www.historynet.com

 

[SexyChineseLady]

For India, that realisation has long been there- but the money hasn't. An indigenous aircraft was attempted before the LCA in the '60s also, but the Govt baulked at the high cost of developing an engine-

According to the Mexican they will just give you an engine if you cooperate. So why spend on developing an engine?

Of course, we both know that wouldn't happen. That is why Mexico doesn't have an engine and India needs to develop one on her own despite both being democracies to Western powers.

In the 1970s and 1980s, China was in exactly the same place as India is in today. China was an ally against the USSR.

So China got the stuff that India does today -- Dauphin, Black Hawks, Crotale, Aspide, etc. But it never got an engine handed to it. The RR Spey license was similiar to what India got for the AL-31 in the SU-30MKI.

In the Spey, China got the plant blue prints. But no transfer of core technology and especially no transfer of the materials formulas. China can assemble the Spey with components from the UK with non-critical parts made in China. These went into the original JH-7.

By the time of the JH-7A, China was already under the Arms Embargo and parts no longer came from the UK so China had to reverse engineer the material science of the parts. This became the WS-9 which could be built entirely in China. But the Spey is an old design so the WS-9 was never used for anything else especially with the coming of the WS-10 which is now put into everything.

I think India was embargoed for a while during LCA. If India goes forward with the S400 buy then the F404 or F414 could be embargoed so despite what the weirdo Mexican said, cooperation is not always possible which is why India continues with her own engine just like China does with hers.

 

[Kumata]

The Y-10 flew 130(!!!) flights with 170 hours of flying time with Pratt and Whitney interim engines while waiting for the WS-8.

It carried hundreds of passengers Beijing, Harbin, Urumqi, Zhengzhou, Hefei, Guangzhou, Kunming, Lhasa and Chengdubefore its retirement in 1984.

Something is not matching up. It flew ... 130 flights worth 170 hours only but cud carry hundreds of passengers across so many cities...

Each flight on an average was 1.3 Hrs ... I thought china is pretty big landscape ... a Beijing to Lhasa flight is 5 or 6 hrs easily...

Hans do not teach math well to their cronies

 

[Kumata]

By the time of the JH-7A, China was already under the Arms Embargo and parts no longer came from the UK so China had to reverse engineer the material science of the parts. This became the WS-9 which could be built entirely in China. But the Spey is an old design so the WS-9 was never used for anything else especially with the coming of the WS-10 which is now put into everything.

Atleast my bitch agrees that they stole and reverse engineer... that's why their famed 5th gen fighter engine need a overhaul every 30 hrs or so... still good...

I think India was embargoed for a while during LCA. If India goes forward with the S400 buy then the F404 or F414 could be embargoed so despite what the weirdo Mexican said, cooperation is not always possible which is why India continues with her own engine just like China does with hers.

India was never embargoed for LCA program . as for S 400 goes, she is already deployed on boarder and your superior han is begging for mercy in Leh & ur Puppets in west are sitting with tail between legs. ...bring in new actors there pls.. all have perished in

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The Y-10 toured China flying from one city to the next carrying passengers. There were only two flying aircraft (third one was a static test machine.) It was a project but never put into service. Still what it could have been if it had allowed to continue and CAAC was able to buy some like the ARJ-21 and what it will do for the C919!