Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon

[asianobserve]

If the US doesn't stop it's protectionist practices, I think so. The first step has already begun with the €1 billion annual pool for R&D funding only available to EU manufacturers.

It will be like committing suicide.

The WTO doesn't cover military products. There is no rule in NATO that says members must buy US equipment. The EF is on it's way out, a new French-German project has already begun.

There is no French-German project for a new fighter. There are statements of intentions but no concrete joint venture yet.

UK and France also have plans for Future Combat Air System (FCAS) but it does not mean that it's already a go for this project.

 

[Armand2REP]

It will be like committing suicide.

It will be suicide for our MIC if we don't do it.

There is no French-German project for a new fighter. There are statements of intentions but no concrete joint venture yet.

UK and France also have plans for Future Combat Air System (FCAS) but it does not mean that it's already a go for this project.

The Franco-German project has already been signed. FCAS was contingent on the UK staying in the EU.

 

[BON PLAN]

It will be like committing suicide.

WHY ?
EU has ALL the skill to produce every kind of equipments : Satellites, planes, ships, subs, riffles, tanks, missiles, nuclear warheads... the EU market is big enough to study and produce awacs like.

Just have a look to the balance between EU and USA for weapon trade. It's absolutely idiot to rely at a such extent on USA.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Franco-German project has already been signed. FCAS was contingent on the UK staying in the EU.

I'm not optimist about franco german plane. It's more a last minute french initiative than anything else.
just my opinion.

 

[Sancho]

The only way the F-35 will lose against EF in Belgium is if politics wins.

- politics
- industrial advantages
- QRA advantages
- having a mix of capabilities with Dutch AF, rather than the same
- maybe even operational costs, I'm sure the RAF and BAE have shared cost comparisons

So there are enough arguments for the EF, the only points that speak against it, are stealth and the nuclear role.

 

[asianobserve]

- politics
- industrial advantages
- QRA advantages
- having a mix of capabilities with Dutch AF, rather than the same
- maybe even operational costs, I'm sure the RAF and BAE have shared cost comparisons

So there are enough arguments for the EF, the only points that speak against it, are stealth and the nuclear role.

We are now like the late 1970's when the US started introducing the teen series of fighters (4th gen). The 3rd gen fighters are suddenly clearly outclassed. Did the USSR and all other major air forces just stood by and inducted more or improved their 3rd gen fighters to match America's new 4th gen fighters? No, those who could afford developed their own 4th gen fighters and those who could not develop their own bought 4th gen fighters from other countries. The only ones who stuck with 3rd gen platforms are those who could not afford 4th gen fighters. But these air forces were at a severe disadvantage against 4th gen equipped air forces.

 

[Sancho]

We are now like the late 1970's when the US started introducing the teen series of fighters (4th gen). The 3rd gen fighters are suddenly clearly outclassed. Did the USSR and all other major air forces just stood by and inducted more or improved their 3rd gen fighters to match America's new 4th gen fighters? No, those who could afford developed their own 4th gen fighters and those who could not develop their own bought 4th gen fighters from other countries. The only ones who stuck with 3rd gen platforms are those who could not afford 4th gen fighters. But these air forces were at a severe disadvantage against 4th gen equipped air forces.

And as explained before, the only operational advantage F35 has is stealth, that's it. But you don't need stealth for air policing or intercepting Russian bombers and since NATO operations are changing from countering Russia or China to, attacking terrorists in urban environments, stealth has no advantage either.
A smaller country like Belgium therfore needs to look at it's own operational requirements and budgets to decide what criteria are more important, just as the government needs to look at political and industrial needs. That's where overall the EF proposal and the capabilities fit far better..., unless the nuclear requirement remains. But then again, if interoperability with Dutch AF is the aim, the nuclear role is covered anyway.

 

[Steven Rogers]

And as explained before, the only operational advantage F35 has is stealth, that's it. But you don't need stealth for air policing or intercepting Russian bombers and since NATO operations are changing from countering Russia or China to, attacking terrorists in urban environments, stealth has no advantage either.
A smaller country like Belgium therfore needs to look at it's own operational requirements and budgets to decide what criteria are more important, just as the government needs to look at political and industrial needs. That's where overall the EF proposal and the capabilities fit far better..., unless the nuclear requirement remains. But then again, if interoperability with Dutch AF is the aim, the nuclear role is covered anyway.

Only stealth, and that 23 million lines of coding brings no advantage, EFT is generations behind the F35. F35 has clear advantage.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Sancho]

Only stealth, and that 23 million lines of coding brings no advantage, EFT is generations behind the F35. F35 has clear advantage.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

Lol yeah coding makes the difference, not superior flight performance, superior radar or IRST performance superior weapons...

 

[Steven Rogers]

Lol yeah coding makes the difference, not superior flight performance, superior radar or IRST performance superior weapons...

F35 has superior coding, superior data fusion, superior net centric capability, superior Radar, superior IRST, superior EO targeting system, superior weapons, what else EFT has.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[BON PLAN]

Only stealth, and that 23 million lines of coding brings no advantage, EFT is generations behind the F35. F35 has clear advantage.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

23 million lines of code that dosen't work fine so far. F35 is not operational, unlike some may say.
The sole clear advantage of F35 is its huge cost.

 

[Armand2REP]

I'm not optimist about franco german plane. It's more a last minute french initiative than anything else.
just my opinion.

It looks like it is actually happening at the expense of FCAS, to include Britain at a later date.

https://investir.lesechos.fr/action...anco-allemand-connus-au-s2-airbus-1743059.php

 

[Armand2REP]

BAE Systems files complaint against France

Boardman makes a complaint will lodge in the middle of BAE Systems as the Belgian Government would choose the French offer. That the British government has to decide, "he said. The bids will not officially out of the companies that build the fighters, but governments that represent a broader operational cooperation in the field of air defense.

Richard Miller, MP for the MR, the party of Prime Minister Charles Michel said yesterday on the radio station Bel RTL that the Belgian government is not obliged to choose between the F-35 and the Eurofighter . "If neither of the two offers the best value for money, other applications, such as Dassault, are examined."

The dossier exercised considerable political pressure by the French and the US government. "We are confident in the strength of our proposal," said the British ambassador in Brussels Alison Rose thereon.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luch...m-dringt-aan-op-gelijk-speelveld/9982402.html

An interesting editorial to note...

http://www.levif.be/actualite/belgi...nt-pipes-d-avance/article-opinion-794039.html

Written by the man in charge of the Belgian FinMin.

 

[asianobserve]

23 million lines of code that dosen't work fine so far. F35 is not operational, unlike some may say.
The sole clear advantage of F35 is its huge cost.

All the complexities integrated into 5th gen fighters means that in a fighter between 5th gen and 4th gen fighters the latter will be seen and identified first by the former while the it will be detected much later by the latter. In an air war, the first party to see and target the opponent wins.

An on A2G missions, 5th gen tech allows it to be able to get closer to the target than 4th gen without getting detected, a vast tactical advantage for 5th gen fighters.

 

[asianobserve]

And as explained before, the only operational advantage F35 has is stealth, that's it. But you don't need stealth for air policing or intercepting Russian bombers and since NATO operations are changing from countering Russia or China to, attacking terrorists in urban environments, stealth has no advantage either.
A smaller country like Belgium therfore needs to look at it's own operational requirements and budgets to decide what criteria are more important, just as the government needs to look at political and industrial needs. That's where overall the EF proposal and the capabilities fit far better..., unless the nuclear requirement remains. But then again, if interoperability with Dutch AF is the aim, the nuclear role is covered anyway.

The F-35 is a stealth fighter with the abilities of an AWACS and ELINT platform. It means it will see and target 4th gen opponents long before they know that an F-35 is facing them. The F-35 simply offers a vast tactical advantage over 4th gen fighters.

As I said, this is really a 3rd gen versus a 4th gen situation in the 1970's. Yeah, the Mig21 before was fast and carries a decent amount of weapons but it was still overmatched by the F-14, F-15 or F-16. The USSR understood it and hence they inducted the Su27 and Mig29.

 

[asianobserve]

And need I say that for the capabilities of the F-35 it is still way cheaper than the EF even at the last LRIP price?

 

[Sancho]

The F-35 is a stealth fighter with the abilities of an AWACS and ELINT platform. It means it will see and target 4th gen opponents long before they know that an F-35 is facing them.

That's nonsense, because it's sensors are not different than 4.5th gen sensors. An RAF F35 that flies next to an RAF EF, will not detect a target earlier because it's a stealth fighter. Stealth only means that you are hard to detect, not that your sensors are better.

 

[asianobserve]

That's nonsense, because it's sensors are not different than 4.5th gen sensors. An RAF F35 that flies next to an RAF EF, will not detect a target earlier because it's a stealth fighter. Stealth only means that you are hard to detect, not that your sensors are better.

There is no analogue to the totality of F-35 sensors and networking among 4th or 4.5th gen fighters.

Face-to-face, the F-35 can detect and target EF much further than how EF can detect and target F-35. This is F-35's significant tactical advantage over EF and other 4th or 4.5th gen fighters.

 

[Sancho]

There is no analogue to the totality of F-35 sensors and networking among 4th or 4.5th gen fighters.

Wrong again, RAF F35s would benefit more from an active EF, than from an active F35, because the EF sensors offer more scan volume and probably also more range. If they add EA capability to Captor E, the EF also can attack the larger area with that capability. Just as the sheer load advantage of the EF makes it far more useful in an active passive mix for the RAF, than using 2 F35s, that have the same limitations.
The F35 in this case remains with just 1 advantage, stealth. That's why it can get closer to the target and would be more useful as the forward passive sensor platform, for following EFs, or in the case of USN, following F18 B3s.

 

[BON PLAN]

All the complexities integrated into 5th gen fighters means that in a fighter between 5th gen and 4th gen fighters the latter will be seen and identified first by the former while the it will be detected much later by the latter. In an air war, the first party to see and target the opponent wins.

An on A2G missions, 5th gen tech allows it to be able to get closer to the target than 4th gen without getting detected, a vast tactical advantage for 5th gen fighters.

It's why USN purchase more SH18 and USAF upgrade another time a big part of its F15 and F16 fleet.

Stealth is physically restricted to X band. everybody (china and russia first) are developing other band radars... and IR up to date seeker.

Even Israel air force top rank general said stealh will vanished in 5 to 10 years. They are discussing a new F15 purchase, and not a F35 one. F35 is a fill gap plane (until the massive arrival of L band radars) and I'm afraid it will be outclassed before beeing really ready.

Once F35 lacks its sole ace, what remain? a low agility plane, with few upgrade possibility.