Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon

[BON PLAN]

The F-35 is a stealth fighter with the abilities of an AWACS and ELINT platform.

an AWACS ? why not a black star ?

 

[BON PLAN]

There is no analogue to the totality of F-35 sensors and networking among 4th or 4.5th gen fighters.

OF COURSE NO.
All eurocanards for exemple are L16 and sensor fusion equipped. the quality of each sensor fusion may be questionned, but it's a fact.

 

[asianobserve]

Wrong again, RAF F35s would benefit more from an active EF, than from an active F35, because the EF sensors offer more scan volume and probably also more range. If they add EA capability to Captor E, the EF also can attack the larger area with that capability. Just as the sheer load advantage of the EF makes it far more useful in an active passive mix for the RAF, than using 2 F35s, that have the same limitations.
The F35 in this case remains with just 1 advantage, stealth. That's why it can get closer to the target and would be more useful as the forward passive sensor platform, for following EFs, or in the case of USN, following F18 B3s.

You're dreaming. The highly integrated trio of AN/APG-81, EOTs and DAS are way more powerful and offers more coverage than EF's Captor-E and Pirate. F-35 can even conduct EW on its own against opposing radars. The F-35 is a generation ahead over the EF in terms of sensors.

A major air force does not need to induct a hybrid of F-35 and 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft just for inferior sensors and carrying capacity. The F-35s can operate in packs of stealthy and non-stealthy (missile carrier) configurations. The F-35 is a hauler when it comes to load capacity so it can act as the arsenal ship in any attack formation. And to top it all the F-35 is cheaper to purchase than EF!

That's why the UK is not adding more EFs to their fleet. Instead, the UK has hinted that it may consider F-35As on its future tranches of F-35. So please, the EF is nice but it is not nicer than the F-35. IN fact, it is already old compared to the F-35 much like how Mig-21 was rendered obsolete when the Teen series showed up.

 

[Armand2REP]

IN fact, it is already old compared to the F-35 much like how Mig-21 was rendered obsolete when the Teen series showed up.

You do realise that the MiG-23 and MiG-25 were in-between the MiG-21 and the teen series of fighters? It was Su-27 and MiG-29 that are their equivalents.

 

[asianobserve]

You do realise that the MiG-23 and MiG-25 were in-between the MiG-21 and the teen series of fighters? It was Su-27 and MiG-29 that are their equivalents.

Mig-23 is another 3rd gen aircraft which was outclassed by the Teen series and the Mig-25 was not really a fighter.

 

[Armand2REP]

Mig-23 is another 3rd gen aircraft which was outclassed by the Teen series and the Mig-25 was not really a fighter.

If MiG-25 was not really a fighter than what was it? Maybe F-35 is not really a fighter either. MiG-23 was 3rd generation, in between 2nd gen 21s and 4th gen 29s. The 3rd gen fighter of the US was F-4 so they should have outclassed the 2nd gen MiG-21 but we all know how that turned out. Only an idiot removes the gun from an aircraft. The EF is 4.5 gen, the difference between it and F-22 is basically its RCS.

 

[Sancho]

You're dreaming.

Nope, I am informend and not biased. That's why I know that for radars the size and the FoR matters, or why an integrated Sniper pod, can't offer the same IRST performance as a proper Pirate IRST...
not to mention that Europeans have this integration of active and passive sensors for more than a decade now and that Rafale was the leading fighter for that.

For the rest of your claims, just read up to how RAF, USN wants to deploy F35 or how NATO plans to use the combination of stealth and non stealth fighters, as shown in the Trident excercise last year.

 

[asianobserve]

It's why USN purchase more SH18 and USAF upgrade another time a big part of its F15 and F16 fleet.

The additional SH purchase is needed to fill the USN fighter gap due to delay in F-35B introduction and the longer-than-expected maintenance times for older Hornets and SHs. F-15 and F-16 upgrade are also needed for more or less the same reasons. Besides, F-15s and F-16s in USAF inventory still have a lot of airframe life left in them.

Stealth is physically restricted to X band. everybody (china and russia first) are developing other band radars... and IR up to date seeker.

NO. Although stealth shaping is optimized against X-band radar, radar absorbing materials are designed not only for X-band but for L to K bands. The fiber-mat technology incorporated into F-35 is one example.

Take a look at this Lockheed Martin patent filing of fiber-mat technology which is said to be effective in absorbing EM waves from 0.1 MHz to 60 MHz:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US20100271253.pdf

Even Israel air force top rank general said stealh will vanished in 5 to 10 years. They are discussing a new F15 purchase, and not a F35 one. F35 is a fill gap plane (until the massive arrival of L band radars) and I'm afraid it will be outclassed before beeing really ready.

Once F35 lacks its sole ace, what remain? a low agility plane, with few upgrade possibility.

Stealth will vanish in 15 years? Is that the reason why France is working with UK to develop stealth UCAV? Is that the reason why France with Germany is proposing on developing a stealth fighter? Is that the reason why Russia despite advertising that its super duper Su-35 is more than a match for F-22 and F-35 is still working hard and trying to extort India in developing PAKFA (although a flawed stealth design)?

As I said many times, in actual combat radar will always be the primary detection system against aircraft hence, stealth will always be there to try to counter it.

 

[asianobserve]

If MiG-25 was not really a fighter than what was it? Maybe F-35 is not really a fighter either. MiG-23 was 3rd generation, in between 2nd gen 21s and 4th gen 29s. The 3rd gen fighter of the US was F-4 so they should have outclassed the 2nd gen MiG-21 but we all know how that turned out. Only an idiot removes the gun from an aircraft. The EF is 4.5 gen, the difference between it and F-22 is basically its RCS.

You're hairsplitting. The fact is, once the US introduced 4th gen fighters the USSR did not just upgrade and built more 3rd gen fighters (which would have been cheaper), they built 4th gen fighters of their own, and so did France and other major air forces.

Mig-21s and Mig-23s were simply outclassed by the introduction of F-14s, F-15s and F-16s that it would have been stupid for the USSR to simply build more of them even with upgraded radars and weapons.

 

[asianobserve]

Nope, I am informend and not biased. That's why I know that for radars the size and the FoR matters, or why an integrated Sniper pod, can't offer the same IRST performance as a proper Pirate IRST...
not to mention that Europeans have this integration of active and passive sensors for more than a decade now and that Rafale was the leading fighter for that.

For the rest of your claims, just read up to how RAF, USN wants to deploy F35 or how NATO plans to use the combination of stealth and non stealth fighters, as shown in the Trident excercise last year.

UK, Italy, Germany, USAF, USN and other major NATO air forces will operate hybrid 5th gen and 4th gen formations since that is what is practical at the moment. The 4th gen and the so called 4.5 gen fighter sin their inventory still have long service lives left in them that it is such a waste to retire them too early. Their expected enemies on the other hand do not have 5th gen or are still developing them.

But the most important factor that's preventing the full scale implementation of 5th gen fighter on NATO air forces is B-U-D-G-E-T. At a time of contracting defence budgets the introduction of 5th gen fighters will not be automatic. But I'm 100% certain that all NATO air forces if only given free hand without budget limitations will go for F-35 or even F-22, if the US will allow it.

 

[Armand2REP]

You're hairsplitting. The fact is, once the US introduced 4th gen fighters the USSR did not just upgrade and built more 3rd gen fighters (which would have been cheaper), they built 4th gen fighters of their own, and so did France and other major air forces.

Mig-21s and Mig-23s were simply outclassed by the introduction of F-14s, F-15s and F-16s that it would have been stupid for the USSR to simply build more of them even with upgraded radars and weapons.

The funny part of your statement is that MiG-21 had to wait for F-16 to outclass it. F-4 should have been plenty but wasn't.

 

[BON PLAN]

You're dreaming. The highly integrated trio of AN/APG-81, EOTs and DAS are way more powerful and offers more coverage than EF's Captor-E and Pirate. F-35 can even conduct EW on its own against opposing radars. The F-35 is a generation ahead over the EF in terms of sensors.

A major air force does not need to induct a hybrid of F-35 and 4th or 4.5th gen aircraft just for inferior sensors and carrying capacity. The F-35s can operate in packs of stealthy and non-stealthy (missile carrier) configurations. The F-35 is a hauler when it comes to load capacity so it can act as the arsenal ship in any attack formation. And to top it all the F-35 is cheaper to purchase than EF!

That's why the UK is not adding more EFs to their fleet. Instead, the UK has hinted that it may consider F-35As on its future tranches of F-35. So please, the EF is nice but it is not nicer than the F-35. IN fact, it is already old compared to the F-35 much like how Mig-21 was rendered obsolete when the Teen series showed up.

You over estimate the F35.
It's radar has nothing really new comparing to the SH one for exemple.
It's EOT and DAS don't work. It can't fired a moving target on the ground so far.

The main ace of F35 is the LM marketing and the need of the white house to have the hand on some ally.

This plane will have some futur in NATO country because it's the price to pay for the US umbrella (they don't really care if it's a nice plane. They know that uncle Sam will arrived in case of).
Japan, south korea will take some dozen, not more, and are developping their own F22 like.

 

[BON PLAN]

Maybe F-35 is not really a fighter either.

 

[BON PLAN]

NO. Although stealth shaping is optimized against X-band radar, radar absorbing materials are designed not only for X-band but for L to K bands. The fiber-mat technology incorporated into F-35 is one example.

NO.
to absorb the L or K radar energy you need thicker RAM, totally incompatible with a plane size.

 

[asianobserve]

The funny part of your statement is that MiG-21 had to wait for F-16 to outclass it. F-4 should have been plenty but wasn't.

F-4 was also 3rd gen and slightly better than Mig-21. But when the Teen series came along F-4 and its 3rd gen peers were outclassed.

The F-4 of coursed stayed for a while in conjunction with the Teen series but that was because until the introduction in masse of Soviet 4th gen fighters the F-4 was more than a match for Soviet 3rd gen and on top of that it still have frame life to serve.

 

[Immanuel]

Combining, even current gen EOTS, DAS, APG-81, Large Panel Display, Sensor Fusion & a revolutionary helmet with DAS alone can look over 1200km away with APG-81 radar ranges of over 440km and EOTS proving clean crips images well out to over 100km, the combined effect is uncomparable by any other 4.5 or 5th gen aircraft. During any fight either with PLA or PA, it would be indispensable in firstly indentifying precise sources of incoming shelling and missile artillery almost as they are launched. It would save lives while providing us clear counter strike targets.

It's ability is clearly that of a mini awacs.

All these sensors will only get better by F-4 which is in the 2022-24 timeline, ideal for us to order this version for delivery in 2026/27

For those claiming the F-35 still can't hit a moving target, they need to get their head out the sand. Also hitting moving targets will only improve as more weapons integration tests are completed.

http://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Arti...geting-system-guides-weapon-to-moving-target/

Block 3F allows it to deploy Aim-9x, Asraam, Paveway 4 (can hit moving targets), JDAMs, JSOW-C (capability to hit small to mid sized) moving ships, subs etc, SDB (can also hit moving targets)

Block 4 will allow for: SDB-2, Spear, Meteor, JSM and others

F-35 Israel will be able to deploy: Derby-ER, Python-5, Spice family of weapons, Griffin LGBs, and perhaps Popeye and others

Actually by 2022/24, the wide range of weaponry available for integration would make all ther other aircraft rather silly.

Options for the buyer is also the reason why the F-16 was a sucessful program and why F-35 will follow.

 

[Armand2REP]

F-4 was also 3rd gen and slightly better than Mig-21. But when the Teen series came along F-4 and its 3rd gen peers were outclassed.

The F-4 of coursed stayed for a while in conjunction with the Teen series but that was because until the introduction in masse of Soviet 4th gen fighters the F-4 was more than a match for Soviet 3rd gen and on top of that it still have frame life to serve.

The F-4 flew like a brick as it was designed to rely on missiles, much like the F-35 is relying on stealth.

 

[asianobserve]

You over estimate the F35.
It's radar has nothing really new comparing to the SH one for exemple.

AN/APG-79 is older than AN/APG-81, this alone should tell you that the latter is better than the former. In fact, F-22's powerful AN/APG-77 radar, the source of F-35's AN/APG-81's radar has been recently upgraded to v1 upgrade from softwares derived from AN/APG-81.

AN/APG-63(V3) on F-15Cs and F-15SGs to which technology from AN/APG-79 has been applied to is even better than AN/APG-79.

It's EOT and DAS don't work. It can't fired a moving target on the ground so far.

There you go again....

This is a clip of F-35 DAS recording of its detection of a rocket 800 miles away seven years ago:


This is also a video clip of DAS and AN/APG-81 automatically detecting and tracking 5 rocket launches (an exhibition to sensor fusion):


And now this is a Reuters article about the successful engagement of a moving pickup truck by an F-35C using GBU-12 Paveway II:

https://www.f35.com/news/detail/f-35c-targeting-system-guides-weapon-to-moving-target

Furthermore, the GBU-49 will be integrated into F-35As to give it the capability to hit moving targets without human designator, pending Block 4.2 EOTS upgrade.

Ultimately, the hiccups in F-35 is to be expected given its complexity. But those bugs are slowly being ironed out. You should know how it is to develop cutting edge weapons system since it took Dassault almost 20 years to develop Rafale (which was cutting edge before F-22 and F-35).

The main ace of F35 is the LM marketing and the need of the white house to have the hand on some ally.

Yes, all the air forces of Japan, UK, Netherlands, Norway, US, SoKor, Australia, etc. are dumb. You are the wise guy...

This plane will have some futur in NATO country because it's the price to pay for the US umbrella (they don't really care if it's a nice plane. They know that uncle Sam will arrived in case of).
Japan, south korea will take some dozen, not more, and are developping their own F22 like.

The US saved its NATO ally France's ass in Lybia and yet France does not buy US fighter jets (instead compete with it and through its snake oil salesmen try to disparage it with silly claims)...

NO.
to absorb the L or K radar energy you need thicker RAM, totally incompatible with a plane size.

Don't you know how to click links? I placed a link to the google document regarding Lockheed's Patent on fiber-mat technology capable of absorbing EM waves from 0.1 to 60 Mhz.

One month after that patent was filed a program VP of the F-35 claimed that the biggest breakthrough in their program is the new RAM coating. And we know now that F-35 uses a new RAM coating that is baked into the metal skin.

 

[asianobserve]

The F-4 flew like a brick as it was designed to rely on missiles, much like the F-35 is relying on stealth.

The F-4 may not have been nimbler than simpler Mig-19s but it was fast enough to outrun them and more than a match for the Mig-21. The second man behind the pilot in the F-4 made up for the inadequacies of 3rd gen sensors and avionics. F-4's record will speak for itself.

And if you review Vietnam war history, although the early A2A missiles during that era war were often unreliable still the final A2A tally of the war reveals that the vast majority of A2A kills were done by A2A missiles, not guns. Now 60 yars later, both sensors and missiles have developed in leaps and bounds already that the early inadequacies of the 60's missiles are almost a thing of the past. Of course nothing is perfect, so there will be hiccups in latest weapons tech, but over-all they are vast improvements over earlier ones.

 

[BON PLAN]

Combining, even current gen EOTS, DAS, APG-81, Large Panel Display, Sensor Fusion & a revolutionary helmet with DAS alone can look over 1200km away with APG-81 radar ranges of over 440km

it's not a F35 ! you describe us that kind of BS :

your claim is : :bs: