Early Mauryan temples discovered in Hardoi

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MAYURA

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Lol. Khaljis and Tughlaqs were Turks, not North Indians. The "native" North Indians had no empires in 14th-16th century period because they were slaves of the Turks.

And yes, Vijayanagari literature, historiagraphy, military, architecture, etc. are all comparable are superior to those of northern Turkic states.

Vijayanagar Empire is recorded to have used artillery and firearms in warfare as early as the 14th century, whereas Lodis of North India were crushed by Babur and his small force of Mongols using gunpowder weapons.


Thanks that you admitted that they were not natives and this should also include your beloved akbar.

Now let us see your u turn next time which is typical of you( you claimed shankaracharya great philosophical works as proof of high culture of kerala and south india in general but you are calling gupta age books as useless).


yes, south was better than us since 13th century when we were ravaged by turks who were a foreign bastards group including that bastard akbar.
 

MAYURA

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speaking of dark and fair scenario in south India Brahmins are most fairest but considered the least intelligent esp the case in AP& TN.

Different perception I guess
CV Raman, S Chandrasekhar, Laxman ramakrishan, ramanujan , vishwanathan anand are all brahmins.

What have others produced in tamil nadu? jokers like periyar and karunanidhi.


The head of indian missile program is VK saraswat a brahmin ( a very orthodox one) .

In kerala too, Nairs who are fairer than other tribal groups are much ahead in anything brainy.
 

MAYURA

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I can show you tens of thousands of Satavahana coins, who were having thriving trade relations with Rome. The Deccan of the 1st-3rd centuries C.E. was a major commercial center with numerous sreni guilds and trade ports, with among the highest levels of economic activity seen in India since early modern times.

BTW, the same Satavahanas are said to have sacked Pataliputra and put an end to Kanvas of Magadha.
Satavahanas never attacked Pataliputra and even if they did, have you forgotten that north indians ruled andhra for one century?.

Samudragupta thrashed kanchi king and also won against haryanavi clans. Show me a single south indian( dravidians ) doing that .

Satvahana terrritory was under developed as largest city of theirs was not more than 120 hecatres compared with gupta pataliputra with an area exceeding 500 hecatres.
 

Iamanidiot

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CV Raman, S Chandrasekhar, Laxman ramakrishan, ramanujan , vishwanathan anand are all brahmins.

What have others produced in tamil nadu? jokers like periyar and karunanidhi.


The head of indian missile program is VK saraswat a brahmin ( a very orthodox one) .

In kerala too, Nairs who are fairer than other tribal groups are much ahead in anything brainy.
the tragedy it is not the case anymore centuries of endogamous inbreeding and cross cousin marriages in small endogamous sub castes in an already small gene pool has made the population highly genetically vulnerable to mental disorders and genetic diseases.To put it the population is critically endangered


In the past due to priveledged acess to resources and existing cultural capital they showed promise.But due to the changed current scenarios no new talent is blooming.

Rather it is the dark skinned shudras castes such as naadars,kammas,reddies,kounders ,mudaliars and other castes where superb talent is blooming
 

MAYURA

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In the past due to priveledged acess to resources and existing cultural capital they showed promise.But due to the changed current scenarios no new talent is blooming.

Rather it is the dark skinned shudras castes such as naadars,kammas,reddies,kounders ,mudaliars and other castes where superb talent is blooming
In which world are you living of late?

VK Saraswat, L ramakrishnan, Vishy anand, are of 21st century not of medieval ages.

and please stop this nonsense that brahmins were richer as there were millions of sudras richer than ramanujan but none could contribute anything and his mathematics prowess was unchallenged by british.


Silicon valley is full of tambrahms and by the way I am talking about achievement in last 2000 years not just now.

How did dalits become dalits? because they were inferior to brahmins it is as simple as that.
 

MAYURA

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And yes, Vijayanagari literature, historiagraphy, military, architecture, etc. are all comparable are superior to those of northern Turkic states.
Certainly not historiagraphy as we depend on Ferishta many times to know which king ascended throne when.

It is irrelevant that turks were outsiders as they were still fairer than we northies so you are proving my point.
North was superior to south from 3000 bc to 600 ad atleast a period of 3600 years and even achievements of south indians are largely that of brahmins a north indian group and relatively fair skinned than austroloid southies.
 

MAYURA

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What empires in south india founded at a time when there were no brahmanas can compare with North indian ones ?

I am afraid there was not much in south before brahmanas apart from some megalithic constructs where people killed buffalo and indulged in sexual orgy.

Let us admit this that south received writing, literature, state apparatus from north.



DD Kosambi a marxist historian too believes that while north had buddha, kapil and panini before mauryan times, we do not know if even a single literate man existed in south.

Arguing for south superiority in classical times is a lost battle.
 

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I am still awake to reply to you and civafanatic , only few like you have historical knowledge.


Perhaps you did not read my post clearly.

It is natural that areas with well watered lands will start civilization but they fail to do anything for us. An aristotle is far worthy for humanity than 1000s of giza pyramids .


as for north europeans being fair skinned, it is within the white race.


a greek or italian are white anyway and i talked about last 2500 years not just some isolated pieces.

Iraq was ahead of greece in pre classical antiquity era which does not hold much as you will realize that in that era only beginnings were made.

It is a fact that darker you are lesser are chances of you being smarter though there are exceptions.


we can see this in india too where relatively fair skinned North indians have outperformed south indians in last 2000 years. current 20 years are an aberration and just exception.
Sir, in support of your claim about white skin civilization's superiority, you say same pattern we can see in India where relatively fair skinned north Indians have outperformed relatively dark skinned south;
But to use similar logic within Europe, the Greeks and italians are relatively darker among the europeans.
All in the same comment!
Further, to support your claim about superiority of relatively fair skinned north Indians you actually use achievements of the east Indian empires who are 'on average' relatively darker skinned people.
I feel confused.
 

MAYURA

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Sir, in support of your claim about white skin civilization's superiority, you say same pattern we can see in India where relatively fair skinned north Indians have outperformed relatively dark skinned south;
But to use similar logic within Europe, the Greeks and italians are relatively darker among the europeans.
All in the same comment!
Further, to support your claim about superiority of relatively fair skinned north Indians you actually use achievements of the east Indian empires who are 'on average' relatively darker skinned people.
I feel confused.
My racist model ( this is my own innovation brother and thinking of patents) is this broadly as i do not exclude exceptions

in last 2500 years the hierarchy of achievement is this

1. white people on top and please do not hijack it by comparing italinas to swedes as both are of same colour with slight differences. the comp[uter we are using, the train through which my parents reached haridwar in 24 hours yesterday, tb vaccine all things useful have been invented by white people.

in antiquity it was greek and italians but in medieval and modern period it is north and west europeans.

2. The white people are followed by mongoloid east asians and other central asians. as you know these people are also fair but lesser than whites so they have achieved much but far below than whites. their inventions and military victories are dwarfed by whites but they are ahead of other dark people.


3. the mongoloids are followed by iranians and arabs who created vast empires, great art and music along with sciences etc. please note that these are darker than east asians so they have achieved lesser than east asians.

4. Indians are darker than even arabs and have achieved not much but we did live a civilized life on sedentary agriculture and have contributed something atleast.

5. Africans of sub sahara are darkest people on earth and it is a fact that in 19th century they were not cultivating but leading a pastoral and hunter gatherer live.

they have achieved least of all people.



do you not see a pattern?
 

MAYURA

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@MAYURA
Are you or your parents RSS member? just asking.
No my parents do not like RSS for its apologitic behaviour towards our civilizational enemies.

my formulating this theory has nothing to do with any of this and they would be shocked if they come to know about my racist theory.

It does not give me pleasure to write and insist that we indians belong to an inferior race but well truth is truth and no matter how bitter it is, it must be told.

I am missing Das ka Das a member who also thinks that indian civlization was most backward of all great civilizations and he too had same thoughts.

ofcourse, i will lose all my friends on this forum for telling this truth.
 
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MAYURA

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Further, to support your claim about superiority of relatively fair skinned north Indians you actually use achievements of the east Indian empires who are 'on average' relatively darker skinned people.
I feel confused.

The ruling races of north india that is indo gangetic plains are on an average of same colour more or less.

this is the problem with most of indians. call kerala a backward region historically and they will start chanting " calculus, shankaracharya, cheras, architecture" etc. forgetting that these achievements are of brahmins and kshatriyas of kerala who are not much different in skin color than other indians of north india.

Sunga empire was founded by brahmins so were the satvahanas, pallavas kadambas etc.

so does it matter if you talk of east indian or deccan empires?
 

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How many coins we have found from contemporary of Gupta dynasty in china? Han should be compared with Kushanas and it is fact that hans greatly outsperformed kushanas on any front so did contemporaries of gupta dynasty but the difference between gupta age and china in 300 to 550 is less than that between han and Kushanas. golden age is relative term and Fa hien found Gupta india very prosperous which means india was on par with china at that time but we can not say it for kushana ge where all we know is that " yuezhi became very rich" .
More meaningless BS. The difference between the Gupta age and contemporary China would be less than the gap between Han and Kushan empires because the Han empire collapsed and China was in chaos, not because Guptas made some great improvements over previous Indian states. In fact, India also declined from 300 C.E. onwards, but China for a brief period declined more, until it reemerged under Tang dynasty in 7th century. However, North India never reemerged after the collapse of Guptas, unless you consider Mughals as a "North Indian" empire (it was really a bunch of Mughals conquering North Indians easily).


Bharatpur has alone given 3000 gold coins and we have gupta gold coin in modern day bangladesh as well as indonesia.
You are probably referring to the Bayana hoard, which was IIRC 2100 gold coins, not 3000. And this is the greatest number of coins that we have found so far of this "Golden Age", lol.

Having a few coins found in backwaters like Bangladesh and Indonesia means nothing. We find Kushan coins from from Central Asia and Xinjiang to Deccan, Orissa, and eastern UP.


unfortunately for you, an estimate has been made on size of indian economy by Angus Madison who is expert unlike your marxist porn peddlers who are simply historians.

He computes indian economy of 1000 ad as 30-35 thousand million dollars. now tell me what is net worth of 42 tons of silver in this .


this is the problem with all trade supremacists like you , you people fail to acknowledge that trade had less than 10 percent share to GDP . Ofcourse I mean foreign trade which can not contribute anything more than that.


indian population was atleast 40 million at that time and divide your 42 tons of silver among them. How much an ordinary indian got per year?

one gram of silver equalling 5 kg of wheat. As i have already said , if you have 42 tons of silver you can mint millions of coins per year and compare that with a dynasty with no such stock, it would make a huge difference for coin collectors like you but its impact on a farmer is less than 20 kg at most.

So here we got everything, Kushana age is golden because an average indian of that time was getting 1 gram of silver annually whereas gupta age is not because it lacks that one gram of silver.

Ridiculous argument .
Per capita income of a typical peasant would have remained mostly constant until modern times. The average peasant probably did not live much better in Kushan age than in Gupta age, though in the Kushan age he may at least have had the opportunity to participate in the economy to a limited extent. In the Gupta "Golden Age", he could not even sell surplus crops to gain some money because the monetary system and local trade networks broke down. He lived in a closed, village-based economy which produced nothing in surplus. The only "trade" would be some bartering between villagers.

Trade acts as a stimulus and incentive for commodity production and offers a channel for surplus produce. Under the Kushans and Satavahanas, there was a "proto-middle class" of merchants, artisans, moneylenders, etc. who depended on trade for their livelihoods. These people were not as wealthy as the ruling class, but better off than the typical peasant. In the Gupta and post-Gupta period, this class of people shrunk considerably in size and there emerged just two basic classes: the wealthy landed elite/nobility, and the peasant masses. Many of the sreni guilds of the Kushan age turned into hereditary castes and migrated to the villages, where they no longer participated in international trade networks.

Also, the figure of 42.5 tons of silver is only for the trade balance with Rome. One also needs to take into account the bullion coming from Central Asia, Afghanistan, and Silk Road trade network under the Kushans, which would be no small amount.

With a lack of trade and low monetization of the economy, you see lower levels of commodity production and surplus production, and also a higher concentration of wealth among the ruling elite.


You have nothing to argue because you know this single ( thanks to soldiers of allah who destroyed bhoja's iron pillar of 50 feet) pillar is unmatched in metallurgy till 1750. OFcourse there is no difference between stone age and iron age .
I have nothing to argue because these pillars are totally useless and, if this if the "prime" scientific accomplishment of the Guptas, then it totally proves the argument that Gupta "Golden age" is nothing but overrated nonsense.


You are no one to point out what is useless or not but that stuff is much more than your kushana age.
Sorry, this stuff is indeed useless in every sense of the world. It had zero significance for anyone in India except a small branch of brahmins.

I would much rather have India be a major economic center than produce such useless literature.


No gupta age produced more literature than entire south east asia, korea, japan, parts of western and eastern europe put together and qualitatively even better than chinese and romans.
Lol, Gupta literature better than Chinese and Roman? It was comparable.


Since I have never claimed Gupta age technology as superior to chinese or Roman this is straw man argument.
You claimed that Chinese inventions were "useless" and had no impact on the economy. I proved you wrong.

I asked before what brahmins were doing with their mathematical knowledge. You have not provided an answer because it is a fact they did nothing with it, and the so-called "science" of Gupta "Golden" Age was little more than meaningless abstractions of some brahmins with free time to spare.


a typical Qing age chinese man was no advanced than an indian farmer of 12th century as benefits we know are of european application.
Wrong. Chinese agriculture was technically more advanced than Indian agriculture as it made use of numerous inventions like multiple seed drills and trip hammers which were not used in India. The Chinese were using waterwheels for efficient separation of grains since at least the Han dynasty. Please show me any Indian agricultural devices comparable to this:


Many Indian farmers were not even using wheelbarrow before British period and you are claiming that Chinese farmers were no more advanced than Indians.
 

MAYURA

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Those who are using italian darker than germans should note that differences are marginal unlike that in bihar and kerala.

This is an italian group




and this is a german group




Do You people really see the difference?

now this is Bihari people of a caste which was instrumental in forming great empires




compare them with this tamilian group




The difference between tamilians and bihari is more apparent than that between the italian and german groups
 

civfanatic

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Thanks that you admitted that they were not natives and this should also include your beloved akbar.
When did I state that Akbar was a native North Indian?

Now let us see your u turn next time which is typical of you( you claimed shankaracharya great philosophical works as proof of high culture of kerala and south india in general but you are calling gupta age books as useless).
When did I claim Shankaracharya as proof of Kerala high culture?

yes, south was better than us since 13th century when we were ravaged by turks who were a foreign bastards group including that bastard akbar.
So I guess you are no longer claiming Qutb Minar as evidence of North Indian superiority?

Samudragupta thrashed kanchi king and also won against haryanavi clans. Show me a single south indian( dravidians ) doing that
Rajendra Chola led a successful expedition against Palas in North India. The city of Gangaikonda Cholapuram was built to commemorate the Chola armies reaching the Ganga river. How was this different from what Samudragupta did?

Although I consider Cholas to be a brutal barbarians who caused great suffering with their wars (especially in Deccan where they ravaged Chalukya towns), they built some of the best architecture in India which was far superior to anything that we find in North India.

North India produced only truly great empire, and that was the Mauryas. And I will freely admit that Mauryas were far greater than any South Indian state and that they brought much civilization to the South.

In 300 B.C.E., it is clear that North India was superior to South India, due to fertile Indo-Gangetic plains which support much higher populations in North than in South and allow the formation of organized kingdoms. But by 500 C.E., South India and the Deccan was in no way inferior to any state in the North, in any criteria.
 

Virendra

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it was really a bunch of Mughals conquering North Indians easily.
I don't think it was easy.
Akbar's GrandPa had to fight many close battles.
Akbar's Papa almost died with a thirsty throat and few dozen followers, before he was saved by Amarkot Chieftain in the middle of the desert. :hehe:
Four decades after Babur won Panipat (consequenetly the Gangetic plains), Akbar hadn't even won Mewar (not far off from Agra), even after allying with Amber.
Yeah north was a cakewalk.. :eek:hplease:
 

MAYURA

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Trade acts as a stimulus and incentive for commodity production and offers a channel for surplus produce. Under the Kushans and Satavahanas, there was a "proto-middle class" of merchants, artisans, moneylenders, etc. who depended on trade for their livelihoods. These people were not as wealthy as the ruling class, but better off than the typical peasant. In the Gupta and post-Gupta period, this class of people shrunk considerably in size and there emerged just two basic classes: the wealthy landed elite/nobility, and the peasant masses. Many of the sreni guilds of the Kushan age turned into hereditary castes and migrated to the villages, where they no longer participated in international trade networks.

Even in mughal age agriculture contributed ninety percent of revenue so your proto middle class argument is useless.


Per capita income of all societies based on sedentary agriculture remained constant throught last 2 milennia that is why i do not give a damn to coins based on few tons of metallic stock.



What was largest city of india in kushana age ? mathura with 300 hectares which is far shorter than pala city of pundravardhana whose palace alone comprised
22 million square feet that is 70 percent of Mathura with city being larger than 55 million square feet twice mathura.

Pala dynasty shows little coin but larger cities so who were living in those cities? Kanchipuram of 7th century as per SR rao is of 10 square km which is three times larger than kushana mathura.

Infact, kannauj, kanchi, thanjavur, gwalior, pundranagara all are greater than kushan age cities in size which shows greater urbanization even with less level of monetized economy.


Sorry, this stuff is indeed useless in every sense of the world. It had zero significance for anyone in India except a small branch of brahmins.

I would much rather have India be a major economic center than produce such useless literature.
Many of them shaped buddhist thoughts in china and japan and i would rather love being respected by chinese and japanese rather than getting 10 kg of extra wheat.
India was not any economic centre with 42 tons of silver coming to it annually.


I asked before what brahmins were doing with their mathematical knowledge. You have not provided an answer because it is a fact they did nothing with it, and the so-called "science" of Gupta "Golden" Age was little more than meaningless abstractions of some brahmins with free time to spare.
Numeral system makes revenue records and land measurement easier and requires lesser time.

You are not telling me why people did not have free time in kushana age? a richer society has more chances of achievement in abstract sciences .

English started writing most of works only from 12 th century and before that literary sources are few. reason is that from 12 th century they became richer so a class was created which could devote itself to abstract sciences.
It is a fact that maths or kushana coins did not have any impact on farmers who were 9 out of 10 but then out of these two things, maths enabled us to create banking system, rocket science etc. unlike kushana gold and copper coins which may please our eyes only.



There is no explaination how kushan age did not have any people with free time to do some abstract thinking.
 

MAYURA

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I don't think it was easy.
Akbar's GrandPa had to fight many close battles.
Akbar's Papa almost died with a thirsty throat and few dozen followers, before he was saved by Amarkot Chieftain in the middle of the desert. :hehe:
Four decades after Babur won Panipat (consequenetly the Gangetic plains), Akbar hadn't even won Mewar (not far off from Agra), even after allying with Amber.
Yeah north was a cakewalk.. :eek:hplease:
What we forget is that Rana hammir and kanhardeo faced and defeated reputed generals of allaudin like nusrat khan but south collapsed like a tash ka putta.


when any one makes this silly argument on north being cakewalk he forgets that Batu ravaged poland and germany but not ethiopia. reason is distance.


when did any dravidian force defeat any invasion of muslim major empires like tughlaqs, khiljisetc.

its like a man from polynesia teasing an indian that he has been screwed time and over.

the south indians did not defeat a single major central asiatic invader. Delhi sultanate reachjed south in 1310 but north in 1200 which is taken by fanatics as proof of

south indian military prowess which is crap as south indians did not face any battle in whole 13th century so if credit goes, it goes to chandellas and guhilots and parmaras who maintained themselves in face of hundreds of thousands of cavalry.

We have prithviraj defeating a 50,000 strong cavalry. is there any south indian precedent to this?

Mauryas ruled over andhras for a century and guptas thrashed the south indian powers. do we have any southie version of this?
 

MAYURA

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When did I state that Akbar was a native North Indian?
You called akbar as much indian as rajputs and sine rajputs are native north indians , akbar too is. anyway, i expected this startling u turn. if mughals were invaders, how come we call them indians?

When did I claim Shankaracharya as proof of Kerala high culture?
in you debate with das ka das

Although I consider Cholas to be a brutal barbarians who caused great suffering with their wars (especially in Deccan where they ravaged Chalukya towns), they built some of the best architecture in India which was far superior to anything that we find in North India.

Have you read what ghazanavi said on mathura temples before destroying them? Or even al biruni on indian temples and stepwells. just because it survived, it does not show any superiority.



So I guess you are no longer claiming Qutb Minar as evidence of North Indian superiority?

Qutub minar is foreign work built after demolishing native jain and hindu temples. It shows north indian superiority but not of native north indians to that we agree.


Rajendra Chola led a successful expedition against Palas in North India. The city of Gangaikonda Cholapuram was built to commemorate the Chola armies reaching the Ganga river. How was this different from what Samudragupta did?
Cholas reached only bengal and that is all. cholas under rajendra did not rule even full karnataka a neighbouring state.


North India produced only truly great empire, and that was the Mauryas. And I will freely admit that Mauryas were far greater than any South Indian state and that they brought much civilization to the South.

Not much but whole civilization as we have no state like thing in south before mauryas or even after them. The satvahanas emerged in modern day maharashtra and then in second century ad, went on to conquer andhra .

Gupta titles, ways of administration, temple art, metallic icons,literature and religion ( hinduism is diverse but it became entrenched in south only from gupta times and south is largely a hindu rehgion for last 1500 years ) all impacted south immensely.



In 300 B.C.E., it is clear that North India was superior to South India, due to fertile Indo-Gangetic plains which support much higher populations in North than in South and allow the formation of organized kingdoms. But by 500 C.E., South India and the Deccan was in no way inferior to any state in the North, in any criteria.
do not seek refuge of deccan to hide south shortcomings.
show me any thing as regards architecture, literature or even coinage ( agreed that we were defecient but it was much more than zero coins of south indian kingdoms) , show me native coins of any south indian kingdom of 4-5th century.
 
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