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pmaitra

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We are on internet that is giving you or me so much a freedom.. do not misuse it and keep your tuppence ( a slang at its worst) to yourself.. I do not need it. I would not even offer that..
I thought you were sermonizing me not to lose my cool.

And if this were not the internet, so what? Fisticuffs? You are at a forum, so try to make cogent arguments and take your empty threats elsewhere.
 

Bhadra

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I thought you were sermonizing me not to lose my cool.

And if this were not the internet, so what? Fisticuffs? You are at a forum, so try to make cogent arguments and take your empty threats elsewhere.
You are not going to distract me on being the subject ...
Fisticuffs, I am sure you are very weak at that... Hmmm .. we use used challenge friends to a duel ... I hope you understand what it involves. Dostoevsky way..

Yah! Cogent arguments like yours... no way.. keep that to yourself..

Allow me to carry on the topic.. I will do that... much more vigorously...:balleballe:
 

Khagesh

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If Navy changes specs midway , how could DRDO deliver sonar on time.

What is the purpose of requesting a sonar without even specifying QR?

Any Eng will laugh his ass off if such a proposition was asked of him.
Given that:
IN is facing shortages in Sonars. The situation around IOR is changing fast too. IOR as such is a difficult naval territory. IN has the least amount of budget even though their equipment takes the longest possible time to get made and inducted with say 30+ years life. But a sonar life is just said to be around 10-15 years or so. IN is deeply involved in R&D also. In any case a Sonar is an el-cheepo item on a vessel. A towed array sonar was quoted at around Rs. 50 crore in a recent round of evaluations.

Under such a scenario it should be ok to enable IN to be flexible in terms of specs.

A change in specs for sonar is not as debilitating as changes in LCA ASQR. In fact even in LCA the main sensor can be flexible since radars on aircrafts do get changed often.

Hull Mounted Sonars - In navy you have a voluminous vessel that can take X-sonar in terms of form factor for a given performance. Unfortunately that ideal limit of form factor vs. sonar size vs. sonar freq. was hit several years back, worldwide. Further we are good in Hull Mounted Sonars so that one problem is fixed for good from the form factor POV. All that coupled with the fact that vessel dimensions cannot at a later day be changed, at whim, implies that the Sonar specs should be flexible.

TAS - The Towed Array Sonar is, well, towed so the form factor is not a limiting factor mostly. And so again there should be flexibility in specs.

So generally we should not be saying that the specs changed so we cannot make a sonar in time. Sonars get used in open/international waters so nobody is going to seek permissions from nobody unlike in use of airspace, where our airspace ends where paki/chinese airspace starts.

But
But
But what is not understood properly (like in the case of @Bhadra) is that sonar since it is based on sounds is actually a far difficult sensor compared to say the understanding of a radar.

Lets presume an simpler active sonar. Because you are making sounds your quary will know your bearings before you know his [Note]. In such a situation it makes sense to preserve the algorithm of your own Sonar. That algo is the soul of sonar. On the flip side if your algo is already known to the marketplace, which is the case when you buy it from others, you are in deep doodoo. Now obviously the algo will be dependent on the kind of soundwaves used. And hence the high complexity involved and the need to understand Sonar as a strategic asset. The cost is not the factor that makes a sonar a strategic issue unlike for other sensors/satellites/surveillance methods.

And because a Sonar is a strategic issue, on which depends your own ability to protect your own SSBNs or kill your enemies SSKs, it must be made inside the country, whatever the hell it takes. Buy the ship if you have to but control your own sonar.



Note - At 50 nm range say the sound travels straight line the target will know about you around 62 seconds before you will [=1.852 km per nm * 50 nm / 1.49 km per sec]. Add to that the fact that the SOFAR will allow you to transmit only by reflection, bounces and refraction which will off course be longer. Add say a 12 second pulse repetition interval. Then some time to detect and report times. Note we are in the SOFAR channel where you get the best transmission and reception. By the time the commander gets the first inputs the picture will be old and creates inherent uncertainty. Thus your algo and prediction must have some good logic to it.

You are doubly screwed if your enemy has a bistatic arrangement. Then he also is in a position to release his heavy weight torpedoes before you.

Just to give you an idea of resolution achieved at a mere 400 feet or 122 meters :) with active sonar.


Man a sonar is not anything like a radar or IR/optical imaging.

The case with a passive sonar is equally intimidating.

Would you like it if US/France were to whisper the sonar algo to pakis to support their own worldwide diplomacy. Both countries have been known to have whispered things around town.

But some people think DRDO cannot do it so damn them we will import. Arre itna simple hota to ho hi na gaya hota.
 

pmaitra

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You are not going to distract me on being the subject ...
Fisticuffs, I am sure you are very weak at that... Hmmm .. we use used challenge friends to a duel ... I hope you understand what it involves. Dostoevsky way..

Yah! Cogent arguments like yours... no way.. keep that to yourself..

Allow me to carry on the topic.. I will do that... much more vigorously...:balleballe:
That is what I was expecting.

Good, then what use is DRDO, and the scientists? Someone should hand you a sword and a horse, and you can defend the nation like a mighty knight.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I don`t believe this thread is any longer serve its purpose for debating rather turn out to troll heaven for a member, It is to take measure not to lengthen this any further ..

That is what I was expecting.

Good, then what use is DRDO, and the scientists? Someone should hand you a sword and a horse, and you can defend the nation like a mighty knight.
 

pmaitra

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I don`t believe this thread is any longer serve its purpose for debating rather turn out to troll heaven for a member, It is to take measure not to lengthen this any further ..
I agree. I just wanted everyone to see how countering a troll with arguments usually ends up like. I think this thread may be closed.
 

power_monger

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yeah go on.. write whatever you want ..!!




just to clarify the situation, inventory of lybia air defense assets...Thanks to @halloweene

- 1 bomber squad (6 TU22)
- 9 fighter squads (15 Mirage F1 ED, 94 Mig 25, 75 Mig 23, 45 Mig 21, 3 Mirage F1 BD, 3 Mig 25U
- 7 fighter/bomber squads (6 SU24 MK D, 14 Mirage F1 AD, 40 Mig 23 BN, 53 su17M2/SU20 , 15 Mig 23U
- 2 reco squads (7 Mig25R, 4 Mirage 5DP30
- unknown (to me) exact number of Hind Mi 25D and Mi35

Air defense : (5 regions)
- 3 brigades (each 20-24 SA6 or SA8)
- 2-3 brigades (12 SA3 each)
- 5-6 brigades with 18 SA2 each
- 4 brigades using SA5A (1 radar and 6 lauchers each)
- 4+ batallions anti aerial artillery

Tell me which supa dupa fighter can do mission such an dominance air power



you spotted it.. I don't know how to do divisions
Woh..you seem to make libya quite a strong army.Actually Rafalles entered Libya quite late by when it was pretty much weakened by Internal civil war.This is similar to Ukraine.On paper it looks like it had good number of weapons,many of them which hardly worked during its civil war.
 

cobra commando

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Indian sonars to power foreign navies

Till early eighties, Indian Navy was dependent on British firms to make sonars for its underwater operations. For the uninitiated, sonar is an underwater equivalent of radar, which exploits acoustic energy for detection, localisation, tracking and classification of underwater targets. The design of sonar requires expertise in sensor technology, signal conditioning and processing, electronic packaging, materials technology, ocean acoustics and mechanical engineering. The modern anti-submarine warfare demands sensor deployment from surface, sub- surface and air. Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), Kochi is one of the major R&D laboratories of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Commencing with Advanced Panoramic Sonar Hull Mounted (APSOH) in 1983, NPOL has delivered several sonar systems, such as Panchendriya, Humsa, Mihir etc, which have been fitted on to submarines, surface ships and airborne platforms of Indian Navy. With the Navy showing a keen interest in deploying advanced sonars for underwater surveillance, NPOL is revving up its act for further improvement and development of new configurations of underwater systems in tune with global standards. According to DRDO officials, the sonar developed for shallow water craft has been designated the HMS-X2. Interestingly, the compact integrated ship sonar system developed by DRDO has attracted interest from Southeast Asian navies as well countries from the Latin America region too. The system, known as the HMS- X2, has been presented to Southeast Asian navies operating 500 to 1,500 tonne surface vessels.


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Indian sonars to power foreign navies
 

cobra commando

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HAL signs MoU with BAE Systems for Hawk Mk132 upgrade

NEW DELHI: HAL has signed an MoU with BAE Systems UK for upgradation of Hawk Mk132, development of combat Hawk for Indian and export markets and maintenance solutions for supporting Jaguar and Hawk fleet. According to HAL, Hawk Mk 132 is an Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) with tandem dual seats meant to provide basic, advanced flying and weapons training. "The cockpit provides excellent field of view and the aircraft is equipped with Inertial Navigation/Global Positioning System, Head-Up Display and Hands-On Throttle and Stick controls," the release said. Speaking on the occasion, T. Suvarna Raju, CMD of HAL expressed confidence on success of the proposed collaboration between HAL and BAE. "It is important that both the teams finalise the scope of Hawk Mk132 upgrades and other work packages under the MoU agreement at the earliest", he said.
MN Shrinath, General Manager (Aircraft) signed the MoU on behalf of HAL, while Steve Timms, Managing Director (Defence Information, Training and Services) signed on behalf of BAE. Chris Boardman, Managing Director (Military Air & Information) headed the BAE delegation. The aircraft has the capabilities to be used as a ground attack aircraft or for air defence. The aircraft is being produced at HAL under licence from BAE. The first aircraft was handed over to IAF in August 2008. Production program of 42 Hawks to IAF was concluded in 2011-12.


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HAL signs MoU with BAE Systems for Hawk Mk132 upgrade
 

Khagesh

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Combat Hawk for what purpose ?

Can it be even half as good as Tejas Mk1 ?

Why to give licence fee to BAE ?
HAWK-132 is already a 22 million USD plane. Now after this god only knows what the IAF will pay for if and what they are going to shoot down with this contraption.

This is the old cabal of UPA days striking back, to make sure LCA Mk-1 never comes into the reckoning. With less expensive avionics an LCA based trainer would easily have costed lesser and yet given better performance overall.

But the import lobby is so strong that some battles will willy-nilly, go in their favour, whether we like it or not.

Crazy notions like these were the reason why LCA was not funded for decades and even today they propagandize against domestic efforts.

Most people in this cabal of coconuts, cultivate their own type of people in the system for years on ends, blackmailing the country and the system, so their dhanda can keep going on and on.

They are patient in ruining the country, you be patient in tracking and exposing them. This effort of exposing them has to be eternal.
 

cobra commando

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Eminent Scientist S Christopher Appointed DRDO Chief

New Delhi: Eminent scientist S Christopher was today appointed as Director General of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for a two-year term. The Appointments Committee of Cabinet has approved appointment of Christopher as Secretary, Department of Defence Research and Development-cum-Director General, DRDO for a period of two years from the date of taking over the charge, an order issued by Department of Personnel and Training said. Christopher is presently Distinguished Scientist and Programme Director (airborne early warning and control system) and Director, Centre for Air-Borne Systems in the DRDO. Another scientist G S Reddy was appointed as the Scientificc Adviser to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar for a two-year term. Mr Reddy is Distinguished Scientist and Director, Research Centre Imarat, and Programme Director of Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) in the DRDO. The Department of Defence Research and Development (DoDRD) has remained under additional charge of Defence Secretary since January 30 this year, after Avinash Chander's contract was curtailed by the government. Mr Chander contract as Secretary, DoDRD-cum-DG DRDO and Scientific Adviser to Raksha Mantri was terminated with effect from January 31. His contract would have otherwise ended in May 2016. Established in 1980, the DoDRD advises the government on scientific aspects of military equipment and logistics and the formulation of research, design and development plans for the equipment required by the three Services.


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Eminent Scientist S Christopher Appointed DRDO Chief
 

Khagesh

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Congratulations and Best of luck Mr. Selvin Christopher.

Hope the sensor-datalinks-HALE UAV efforts get a boost under him. I would be ok with a foreign engine on AMCA and a foreign design for FGFA class fighter. But both must have an Indian radars, Indian IRST, Indian datalink, Indian avionics, on them from day one. At least I wish for it.

The twin posts of Scientific advisor and DRDO chief have been split. I hope it works out better this way.

At least the armed force cannot say that the DRDO chief has too much influence inside MoD.

S Christopher has experience doing CABS work, putting Indian AEWC on the a foreign platform. So I hope he is acceptable to all sides.
 

ersakthivel

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http://idrw.org/mission-brahmos-how-india-got-the-worlds-most-powerful-cruise-missile/#more-65097

BrahMos Corp CEO A. Sivathanu Pillai writes in his fascinating book ‘The Path Unexplored’ that it was after seeing the Tomahawk’s success that India decided to acquire a precision attack cruise missile. “This was to be our magical first strike weapon,” he writes.

Things kicked off in 1995 when legendary missile man – and later President – A.P.J. Abdul Kalam asked Pillai, then the programme director of IGMDP, to take charge as the CEO of an India-Russia joint venture (JV) that would develop a brand new cruise missile.

Many of Pillai’s colleagues, including senior bureaucrats, were of the opinion that a JV with Russia couldn’t be a success and therefore he should stay away from the project. Also, in the absence of quality requirements – let alone the promise of an order – from the armed forces, it was deemed an extremely risky venture.

There was also the prospect of internal sabotage. As Pillai reveals in his book, there were senior military personnel who wanted to scuttle the BrahMos project by declaring its performance unsatisfactory. Their plan was to continue India’s dependency on imports, which would result in more kickbacks for middlemen.

High-level parleys

Things now moved quickly and an India-Russia joint feasibility team was set up. During deliberations the team discovered that NPOM’s new engine could be configured for supersonic flight if the two countries put together their technological assets.

The team discussed this possibility with Ronen Sen, Indian ambassador to Russia who suggested that instead of collaborative efforts, India and Russia should go for a JV. Sen wrote a letter to Kalam, who was now President, advising him to work out the JV format with independent status.

The proposal now went to Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao, also the Defence Minister. Rao, the prime mover behind India’s economic liberalisation, approved the JV. (It’s interesting to imagine the project’s fate if Manmohan Singh or I.K. Gujral had been the Prime Minister. Or if Mulayam Singh or A.K. Antony had been Defence Minister. It required a leader with cojones to give clearance to such a major project at a time when India’s bank balance was nearly zero.)
The Russian side was keen for the JV to be a private sector company. Had DRDO’s share been 51 per cent, it would have become a public sector company falling under India’s Defence Ministry. “The Russians feared procedural formalities and government controls from the Indian side would delay the operations of the JV,” Pillai writes.

In hindsight, it was one of the best decisions made by an Indian defence enterprise. Free of government interference, BrahMos is today one of the most dynamic armaments companies in India.

There was one last hurdle. Moscow wanted to be sure India had the scientific and industrial depth to absorb a project of such complexity and magnitude, and despatched a specialist committee to India. DRDO selected certain key establishments – in Delhi, Dehradun, Hyderabad and Bangalore – to showcase India’s missile milestones.

“The Russian specialists were awestruck and very happy on seeing our development capabilities, especially in missile technology, guidance and control, software packages, computing capabilities and electronics systems. Their confidence levels shot up to high levels,” Pillai writes.
Contrast this with the endless prattle of "India has no tech base to absorb 1980s rafale MMRCA tech" trotted out by MMRCA and rafale backers!!!
On the Indian side, Kalam never turned down any of Pillai’s proposals. Similarly, when Kalam forwarded a proposal to Prime Minister Rao, the file came back with his approval the same day. This is something unimaginable in India where politicking comes first and national security takes a back seat. In India, even low-level personal assistants can delay projects of vital national interest by sitting on files. Sometimes they expect a bribe to clear a file; on other occasions they are paid by a competitor or foreign agency to block it.

But Rao was the right Prime Minister at the right time. Pillai remembers that while going through the JV documents, the Prime Minister nodded and said: “It is a good idea and if it clicks it has a good future.”
Contrast this with the agony aunts of cash rich UPA govt-- MMS and A.K. Antony!!!1
 
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ersakthivel

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http://idrw.org/get-out-of-white-ma...dia-ex-drdo-chief-avinash-chander/#more-65029

"A huge capability exists in the country and you have access to a huge technology base. A lot of Indians who are working in global corporations will be happy to come back and contribute if the opportunity comes in Indian industry.

Secondly, we have to stop thinking small. For too long, we have been thinking at a very low level. Americans have not done this, so how can we do it? We have to come out of this White Man Syndrome. Today, many foreign companies are setting up their R&D centres in India. I read that Daimler is planning to take on 1,000 engineers every year. They have 4,000 as on date, for their R&D centre in India. DRDO has 7,000 engineers. With 7,000 engineers, we want to do missiles, aircraft, tanks, submarines, ships, everything. Where is the ratio? Obviously, government cannot keep on expanding. This has to multiply at the industry and the academic institutions. Once that happens, Indian industries and Indian scenario will change."

"You joined DRDO after passing from IIT in 1972 and you have been there for the entire span of your career. How do you get people like you to join DRDO and stick around for as long as that?

"That is not a major problem right now. For the last three-four years we have been going to IITs for entry level recruitment. We even started a new process of online test for IITs and NITs and almost 3400 appeared for the test.

Last time this question came from the parliamentary committee that we are not getting proper manpower and even we are getting people IIT, we are getting all the left outs. We did an analysis. Out of the total number of people that we hired, some were 9 plus pointers and all of them were above average.

Also, you have to realise that DRDO is offering an entry level salary of Rs 40,000-50,000 per month. An IITian takes a typical salary of about Rs 80,000 to Rs 1 lakh a month from the private industry. Inspite of that, DRDO is attracting people due to the challenge which it entails.


In this process, one issue which plays a very vital role is the organisation image. Among the three major scientific organisations, ISRO, DRDO and DAE, DRDO is the most maligned.

DRDO’s achievements are no mean ones. We have our own nuclear submarine, jet aircraft, ballistic missiles, intercontinental ballistic missiles, radars. In fact, the indigenous radars are comparable with the best in the world today. We are replacing imports of radars because the indigenous ones are better than the imported ones. DRDO has created a mark in practically every area.

The requirements of the armed forces are dynamic and will keep on increasing. There will always be a gap. With these limited resources, if we are able to meet even 10%-20% of that gap, it is a commendable achievement.

Also, we are working in a system where it takes 10 years to buy a Rafale aircraft. Mind you, just buy and not make. If we take 10 years to buy an aircraft, everywhere else the same process is followed and delays happen".
 
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Khagesh

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Great datapoints there @ersakhtivel

As Pillai reveals in his book, there were senior military personnel who wanted to scuttle the BrahMos project by declaring its performance unsatisfactory. Their plan was to continue India’s dependency on imports, which would result in more kickbacks for middlemen.
These people should be named and shamed even after retirements.

Also this great report being cross posted here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...cess-navy-places-order-for-drdos-altas.68284/

For @Bhadra bhai :p
 

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