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pmaitra

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Ah! So you have started thinking for Kunal ! That is good.
I think for the truth.

post # 181
Read that again
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/how-drdo-failed-indias-military.67942/page-10

Mark III was imported due to failure of DRDO to develop that. " M/s FFV, AB Sweden at a total cost of SEK 859.90 Million. Further OFB also entered into a contract in February 2005 with M/s FFV, AB Sweden for TOT for 84 mm RL MK-III Weapon and HEAT 551 ammunition at a cost of SEK 17 Million for which they received technology for all parts of the weapon except for Carbon Filament Winding (CFW) of the barrel. In the meantime Ordnance Factory Board received TOT of ammunition in 2005 consequent to which the project was foreclosed."

So what OFB is making is on a TOT given by OEM and not DRDO. I do not know what you and kunal aare contesting ?
There is absolutely nothing in your post that defends your original claims that Carl-Gustav is 1942's technology and that lot of technological developments have taken place in this system, especially with the ammo, but it remains the same old system in IA.

I never claimed that Mark III technology is indigenous.
I never claimed that India did not receive ToT.

My point was to tell the members that what remains with IA are, along with older systems, new systems, that are not the old technology of 1942, but relatively modern technology of 1991.

Yes, modern technology is with India, and soldiers are being trained in it as well.

Source: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090913/spectrum/main1.htm

I have also asked you to provide what new technology w.r.t. ammo India should have, and you have no answer.

Initially, I owed your mistake the benefit of doubt, as an honest mistake, but after this post, I know you are deliberately misleading people.

You should offer an apology for misleading people with false data, and accept that you are wrong, instead of obfuscating with your deviousness.

You do not read the posts and suddenly spring up to nit pick deliberatwly.
Yes, I am nit-picking, if "nit" means deliberate falsehoods.

As long as the sole motivation behind your posts is to bash DRDO, with correct or fabricated data, or as long as your motivation is to constantly find faults with Kunal and whine like a cry-baby and resort to emotional blackmail, or as long as you talk about extinct birds, you will be countered.
 
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Khagesh

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I never claimed that Mark III technology is indigenous.

I never claimed that India did not receive ToT.
:biggrin2:
He did that to me too. I said something. He heard something else entirely. I think it was about Corner shot rifles.

Bhadra Bhai it has been pointed out to you and still you persist with an audit report. There was an audit report on LCA too recently. Just on the other thread it has been used by a Rafale fan to malign LCA.

You are seriously outdated. About the Sonars you frankly do not realize that things like SBAs are highly secretive. Not like a thing that you would put out in a CAG report. The defence establishment would rather take adverse comments in the audit. We will perhaps never come to know if and where it is being used. You forget that India already has all the basic technology that is needed to do it. And as I pointed out IN+NPOL have identified the Ultra Low Freq as a priority area. Who knows what they are doing today. Coincidently IOR is a big complex vast open water body plus the land mass of India projects outwards (almost convex) unlike the US land mass (Concave). The kind of coincidences that would not lend themselves easily to sonar triangulation unlike the north atlantic where the Low freq SOSUS could be easily made to work.

Also your dunking sonar is now Abhay Sonar and is in Pre-User trails. The CAG report you rely on mentions that no documentary proof of IN interest was shown. And the report quotes the latest periods as 2013. In October 2013 there were reports in media of a seminar or something where a serving officer has said that dunking sonar is coming out as per plans.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-pape...ays-rear-admiral/article5227728.ece?css=print

The Dunking sonar you have mentioned as delayed was the Mihir. Mihir had gotten seriously delayed and that is why it was finally shown to be working in principle as some jugaad hardware but was ended as a Technology Demonstrator. But as is usual with R&D the Tech Demo aka delayed products seeds the next stage of development. Nagan and Mihir ka dusra jaman ho gaya hai aur dono abhi tests mein hain. Just like Kalam and team went through a lot of pains in Project Valliant and Project Devil, before being successful in IGMDP. And IGMDP that you can now conveniently brush aside as ‘few missiles’ :D.
 

sob

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LCA MK1 and/or MK2 is going to be the only choice for the single engine requirement for IAF.

With the new scenario now the options for twin engine heavy aircraft have opened up. The problem is not in LCA programme but in AMCA and the FGFA programme. Coupled to this is a serious resource crunch due to the inactivity of last 7 to 8 years.

Regarding LCA, we no are seeing a very clever word play earlier deadline was end 2015 calendar year and now we are talking about the financial year end. Goal posts have been shifted by at least 3-4 months.
 

sob

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LCA MK1 and/or MK2 is going to be the only choice for the single engine requirement for IAF.

With the new scenario now the options for twin engine heavy aircraft have opened up. The problem is not in LCA programme but in AMCA and the FGFA programme. Coupled to this is a serious resource crunch due to the inactivity of last 7 to 8 years.

Regarding LCA, we no are seeing a very clever word play earlier deadline was end 2015 calendar year and now we are talking about the financial year end. Goal posts have been shifted by at least 3-4 months.
 

Bhadra

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There is absolutely nothing in your post that defends your original claims that Carl-Gustav is 1942's technology and that lot of technological developments have taken place in this system, especially with the ammo, but it remains the same old system in IA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustav_recoilless_rifle

The Carl Gustaf was developed by Hugo Abramson and Harald Jentzen at the Kungliga Arméförvaltningens Tygavdelning (Royal Swedish Arms Administration) and produced at Carl Gustaf Stads Gevärsfaktori from where it derives its name. The weapon was first introduced into Swedish service in 1948 as the 8,4 cm Granatgevär m/48 (Grg m/48), filling the same anti-tank role as the U.S. Army's Bazooka, British PIAT and German Panzerschreck. Unlike these weapons, however, the Carl Gustaf used a rifled barrel for spin-stabilizing its rounds, as opposed to fins used by the other systems

Of course DRDO has neither been able to upgrade the weaponry nor ammunition of 84mmRL . You have any claim contrary to that ?

I never claimed that Mark III technology is indigenous.
I never claimed that India did not receive ToT.

My point was to tell the members that what remains with IA are, along with older systems, new systems, that are not the old technology of 1942, but relatively modern technology of 1991.
The topic how DRDO failed Indian Army. I presented CAG report to demonstrate how DRDO failed to upgrade the weapon technologically. If it is modern you can not claim credit for it.

I have also asked you to provide what new technology w.r.t. ammo India should have, and you have no answer.
II further quote the same CAG report in this regard.

Development of Electronic equipment for three types of ammunition


http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home.../2011_12/Defence_Services/report_24/Chap7.pdf

The DDRD in May 1985 sanctioned the above mentioned Staff project for 1.86 crore to be completed by May 1987. The GSQR envisaged as essential qualitative requirement of the equipment that the mean deviation of the equipment should not exceed 0.1 seconds; on firing it should be safe for up to 1 + 0.05 seconds and the equipment should be reliable up to 95 per cent of Air Burst and 99 per cent on percussion setting. Though initial PDC of the project was May 1987 user trials could be conducted only in December 1990. As the reliability and consistency of the equipment was poor during these trials, Army suggested further improvements and modifications before offering the electronic equipment for retrials.

In September 1991 Army HQ stressed that the equipment should achieve the results within +0.05 seconds deviation which were erroneously indicated as 0.5 sec in GSQR and should have consistency in height of burst. ARDE in October 1991 claimed that since the GSQR parameters regarding mean
deviation were achieved, the item be considered acceptable. Eventually, in May 1993, DRDO expressed its inability to achieve the time accuracies indicated by Army, but offered a modified equipment for user trials in 1994. However user trials were inordinately delayed. Phase-I trials of modified equipment were conducted in February and March 1996. The equipment did not perform satisfactorily during the trial but during Phase-II user trials conducted in September 1997 the equipment performed satisfactorily and met the GSQR requirements.

In the meanwhile Ministry of Defence in August 1997, entered into a contract with M/s Electronic Corporation of India Limited (ECIL) for supply of 21000 equipment from M/s Bulova Technologies, USA at a total cost of ` 12.13 crore. The imported equipment was trial evaluated along with DRDO equipment, in October 1997. Army HQ, in August 1998 indicated that the performance of the imported equipment was superior to the equipment developed by DRDO in terms of both reliability and technology. It recommended that the project be short closed as it was based on GSQR of 1984 vintage, and directed for generation of fresh GSQR. Finally, the project was closed in August 2003 with retrospective effect from December 1998 after incurring an expenditure of ` 1.88 crore. Army accepted imported equipment in the interim. While Army HQ did not respond to audit, Ministry in its reply claimed that electronic equipment had given performance of 94.88 per cent as per ARDE’s evaluation. Regarding consistent height of burst (HOB) by reduction in mean deviation, it stated that GSQR acceptance criteria for electronic equipment was only the timing accuracy and not the HOB. However, the fact remains that the fuze could not be developed by ARDE within the initial PDC of May 1987 and finally, its performance was found to be poor in terms of reliability and consistency leading to its import by the Users.

Initially, I owed your mistake the benefit of doubt, as an honest mistake, but after this post, I know you are deliberately misleading people.
Being judgemental may be your right but perceived ills and falsr accusations are not. I do not accept false accusations .

You should offer an apology for misleading people with false data, and accept that you are wrong, instead of obfuscating with your deviousness.
I AM MORALLY UPRIGHT TO OFFER APLOGIES WHERE IT DESRVE AND YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TEACH ME THAT. IN THIS CASE YOU ARE FORCING IT ON ME. IT IS RATHER YOU WHO SHOULD APOLOGISE.

As long as the sole motivation behind your posts is to bash DRDO, with correct or fabricated data, or as long as your motivation is to constantly find faults with Kunal and whine like a cry-baby and resort to emotional blackmail, or as long as you talk about extinct birds, you will be countered.
I have truthfully quoted form sources and not bashed any one on my opinion. It is rather you who is bashing a member due to your individual interest.
 

Khagesh

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Ok one mistake and I am sorry about that.

Abhay Sonar is for small water-crafts in shallow waters and is in tests. It is not the new name of dunking sonar Mihir.

New name is LFDS and that too is in tests. And as the DRDO reply to the CAG report noted :
In reply (September 2013) to the Draft Audit Paragraph, Ministry of Defence (DRDO) admitted that the deficiencies noticed during Phase-5 trials could be made good only in Phase-6 trials. They further added that LFDS does not face any component obsolescence and that certain features (Active Buoy and Bathy Buoy) could not be demonstrated due to the Navy not having these items in their inventory. The Ministry of Defence (DRDO) attributed the change in QRs to Navy’s choice of ALH for trials which was not an ASW platform.
Pls read that with the statements of the Navy serving officer linked above, to make full sense.
 

Ancient Indian

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I think @Bhadra problem is not with the current performance of DRDO.

They had failed at lot of projects in past. What are they doing for last few decades.

It is like DRDO founded around 1995. Not some later date.
 

Bhadra

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@Khagesh
Firstly, Link is not working
Secondly, I am fully aware of the pitfalls and dangers in putting up such posts that are being perceived as against or anti DRDO but the topic is such.

Thirdly when was DRDO established ? Now it is May 2015 !

Dunking sonars are very fundamental and rudimentary technology for ASW .. the only thing it says as saving grace that it is Low Frequency Dunking sonar. But tell me why even so . Genrally submerged sonars, active or passive, will be low frequency based to attain greater range !!

and we are still saying it is under trail ?? ten more years trail period ?

Is not That something very pathetic when even the aquatic Biologist use those to study aquatic life.?

Lastly, I do not believe IN has no sonobuoys (Active Buoy and Bathy Buoy) ! If not why did not DRDO lab purchased it. What is the project money meant for ?

These are just flimsy reason to satisfy audit objections. They also know why such reasons are being given !!
 

Bhadra

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I think @Bhadra problem is not with the current performance of DRDO.

They had failed at lot of projects in past. What are they doing for last few decades.

It is like DRDO founded around 1995. Not some later date.
DRDO was formed in 1958.

Through the CAG report covers on period between 2009 -13 there are other reports of the past and there will other reports in the future.

What the report cover astonishingly that DRDO focusses only on limelight heroic projects ( even there are grand failures galore - Tejas, Arjun, Nag, etc) and not those where they will not get national level publicity. That results in DRDO really not helping out the Forces which they were created for. It appears every Lab director has chosen a glamorous project for himself and we keep reading about that for a long time before that is also foreclosed. But there are a billions of things to do and you can get glamour and publicity in each and every thing like dunking sonar which 80 percent of population would have no idea of.

The Services themselves have no dearth of technical manpower but they do not have even a single penny in the name of research. Govt pays DRDO and others for research.

To tell you very frankly, I have been hearing about this Sea Bed Arrays and DRDO's Lab conducting experiments in submerged VLF frequencies for last 33 years - in hush hush manner and today reading the CAG report on the project has opened my eyes. In the hush hush secretive projects they were enjoying themselves hush hushly and earning their pensions..

Today, the DRDO news later has nothing better to publish in their news letter but as to how one of their director blasted a blocked river in Ladakh and how they celebrated Woman's Day with Smriti Irani.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2015/may-15.pdf
 

Ancient Indian

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DRDO was formed in 1958.

Through the CAG report covers on period between 2009 -13 there are other reports of the past and there will other reports in the future.

What the report cover astonishingly that DRDO focusses only on limelight heroic projects ( even there are grand failures galore - Tejas, Arjun, Nag, etc) and not those where they will not get national level publicity. That results in DRDO really not helping out the Forces which they were created for. It appears every Lab director has chosen a glamorous project for himself and we keep reading about that for a long time before that is also foreclosed. But there are a billions of things to do and you can get glamour and publicity in each and every thing like dunking sonar which 80 percent of population would have no idea of.

The Services themselves have no dearth of technical manpower but they do not have even a single penny in the name of research. Govt pays DRDO and others for research.

To tell you very frankly, I have been hearing about this Sea Bed Arrays and DRDO's Lab conducting experiments in submerged VLF frequencies for last 33 years - in hush hush manner and today reading the CAG report on the project has opened my eyes. In the hush hush secretive projects they were enjoying themselves hush hushly and earning their pensions..

Today, the DRDO news later has nothing better to publish in their news letter but as to how one of their director blasted a blocked river in Ladakh and how they celebrated Woman's Day with Smriti Irani.

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2015/may-15.pdf
I want DRDO perform like ISRO.

But those lazy bums are skipping sessions. And riding the wave when ever some one creates some thing extraordinary.

I can understand your frustration. I had met people who does miracles with least equipment and very limited resources.

For all these years, I never read anything from DRDO that can be patent worth on global forum.

The export value of military equipment from our side is very low. It shows the state of business.

For all those who are patting their backs for DRDOs achievements, should look at the reality.

If we are not importing the tech from other countries, I doubt they would have made even simple bomb to make their day.

The firm is nothing but money leaching body in the whole system.

How would they have been performed if they have to sell their products to make salary ?

No one performs anything if there is no demand for it.

I demand for total reforms in DRDO .
 

power_monger

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I want DRDO perform like ISRO.
frankly speaking ISRO has not yet ventured into risky technological missions like sending astronuats into space or rover missions. ISRO is still struggling to get its semi-cryogenic engine technolgy correct to lift 4+ tonne satellites into orbit. It has only shown capability to lift 2+ tonne satellites till now.Do remember this technology was mastered by NASA during 1960's. Strangely we see a lot of bashing for DRDO technology like akash system referring it to as 1960's technology yet no such criticism happens for ISRO.

Why do people even take credit away from DRDO in areas of missiles?Isn''t DRDO's achievments in Missiles pretty good considering their progress in ballistic missiles? What people do not realise is that a Air - to - Air Missile like Astra could be as technologically challenging as a satellite launch or even more.

DRDO might have severly failed in other areas. But they have done pretty good work in terms of Missiles and Radars. Acknoweldge that. I do think that wrt ISRO in areas of ballistics DRDO has not been far behind.
 

Ancient Indian

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frankly speaking ISRO has not yet ventured into risky technological missions like sending astronuats into space or rover missions. ISRO is still struggling to get its semi-cryogenic engine technolgy correct to lift 4+ tonne satellites into orbit. It has only shown capability to lift 2+ tonne satellites till now.Do remember this technology was mastered by NASA during 1960's. Strangely we see a lot of bashing for DRDO technology like akash system referring it to as 1960's technology yet no such criticism happens for ISRO.

Why do people even take credit away from DRDO in areas of missiles?Isn''t DRDO's achievments in Missiles pretty good considering their progress in ballistic missiles? What people do not realise is that a Air - to - Air Missile like Astra could be as technologically challenging as a satellite launch or even more.

DRDO might have severly failed in other areas. But they have done pretty good work in terms of Missiles and Radars. Acknoweldge that. I do think that wrt ISRO in areas of ballistics DRDO has not been far behind.
That is because they share tech with each other in that field.
 

ersakthivel

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I don't think pushing the plane to high maneuver allows them to escape from modern AA missiles..

Also Rafale Pulled 10.5 g in solo display, MK 2 still in papers don't bring it here when we discuss about Flying wings



MAWS alert you about the Incoming missile will not help you to evade from the missile



Because he did it in Libya ..!!



How did you come with the 10,000KM distance from Paris to Reunion

see this ..looks like a straight flight path..I don't know Rafale flew like this direction





with it's ability design and defensive suites.
1.SO in your opinion pulling lower Gs is the only way to escape a missile!!!!!
may be Carlo Kopp doesn't know this simple fact!!!!

2.9+_ 3G sis the official figure and tejas mk2 is paper plane only for trolls, it is going to get an engine with twenty percent more power , where will that power go?

3. If MAWS does not help pilot to evade missile, then please explain what is its purpose in a fighter?
Do you know what pilot does when he receives a warning from MAWS?
He turns bank and starts evasive manouver. AFAIK warning from MAWS help pilots to evade missiles.

4.

https://www.google.co.in/?gfe_rd=cr...s_rd=ssl#q=Istres+to+reunion+islands+distance
Distance between reunion island and Listers is 8837 Km.
http://www.ambafrance-in.org/Strategic-force-projection-Rafales

" In an impressive demonstration of its strategic reach, two Rafales – supported by a C-135 FR air refueller – flew on a very long-distance practice exercise to the French island, Reunion, in the southern Indian Ocean. The Rafales’ non-stop flight, which took 10 hours and 35 minutes and involved five inflight refuellings, was directed by the French Strategic Air Forces (FAS) Command."

"The formation, which took off from Istres at 5 am on Tuesday, April 22, landed in mid-afternoon of the same day at Saint-Denis, after a flight lasting 10 hours and 35 minutes for the Rafales (including 5 in-flight refuellings) and 11 hours for the C 135 tanker. The detachment comprised forty people from the EC 1/91 "Gascogne" and 2/91 "Bretagne" squadrons, as well as support squadrons 15007 from Saint Dizier and 15.093 from Istres.



So 10.5 hours-----8877 Kms -----five refuelings+ full tanks in take off = 6 full fuel load.

3 big external load, two air to aim missiles and two air to ground bombs is the load,

give me the range .
"
 

Kunal Biswas

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The sonar is presently use on P28 class stealth corvettes, And exported to Mayamar Navy`s stealth frigates ..

Ok one mistake and I am sorry about that.

Abhay Sonar is for small water-crafts in shallow waters and is in tests. It is not the new name of dunking sonar Mihir.

New name is LFDS and that too is in tests. And as the DRDO reply to the CAG report noted :


Pls read that with the statements of the Navy serving officer linked above, to make full sense.
 

ersakthivel

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I sure some one aleardy put words on his mouth ..

How Tejas can be equal to Mirage 2000, I mean the older version.. don't tell me Tejas is equal to Mirage 2000 TI
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2013_12_01_archive.html
"
The Tejas’ capability is best known to the air force and navy test pilots in the National Flight Test Centre, who have tested it in 2,400 flights. They claim it may be more versatile than the MiG-29 (primarily built for air-to-air combat); the MiG-27 and the Jaguar (both oriented to ground strike); and all variants of the MiG-21, including the multi-role BISON.

The Tejas’ likely adversary, the Pakistan Air Force’s F-16 fighter, has a slightly larger flight envelope, but the Tejas’ superior avionics give it a combat edge over the PAF’s older F-16A/Bs (currently being upgraded in Turkey); and superior to their new JF-17 Thunder light fighter, co-developed with China. Only the PAF’s 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 fighters, flying since 2010-11 from Jacobabad, may be a match for the Tejas.

Said an NFTC test pilot during the IOC ceremony on December 20: “As a multi-role fighter, the Tejas is at least the equal of the IAF’s upgraded Mirage-2000. It can more than hold its own in our operational scenario.”
"
http://www.business-standard.com/article/opinion/a-bird-in-the-hand-113072200973_1.html
"Says Air Commodore (Retd) Parvez Khokhar, who was for years the chief test pilot of the Tejas programme: "The Tejas Mark I is far superior to the MiG-21 fleet that the IAF would have to operate to the end of this decade. In key respects, it is a better fighter than even the Mirage 2000. The Tejas Mark I should enter the IAF's combat fleet in larger numbers and the Tejas Mark II scaled down. This would allow the air force to retire the MiG-21 fleet sooner.""
 
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Kunal Biswas

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I don`t think that data is now available as forum recently being upgraded, If he re-explain the issue would be very nice ..
 

SajeevJino

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1.SO in your opinion pulling lower Gs is the only way to escape a missile!!!!!
may be Carlo Kopp doesn't know this simple fact!!!!
I never said Like that, even if you pulled at maximum G's the Missile always wins.. in many cases, lower g Lower Speed low maneuver means Jackpot for Missile

2.9+_ 3G sis the official figure and tejas mk2 is paper plane only for trolls, it is going to get an engine with twenty percent more power , where will that power go?
Ye did you see that MK 2 flying ..!

3. If MAWS does not help pilot to evade missile, then please explain what is its purpose in a fighter?
Do you know what pilot does when he receives a warning from MAWS?
He turns bank and starts evasive manouver. AFAIK warning from MAWS help pilots to evade missiles.
AFAIK .. MAWS is just a missile warning system which warn the fighter about incoming missiles characteristics..

4.

https://www.google.co.in/?gfe_rd=cr...s_rd=ssl#q=Istres+to+reunion+islands+distance
Distance between reunion island and Listers is 8837 Km.
http://www.ambafrance-in.org/Strategic-force-projection-Rafales

" In an impressive demonstration of its strategic reach, two Rafales – supported by a C-135 FR air refueller – flew on a very long-distance practice exercise to the French island, Reunion, in the southern Indian Ocean. The Rafales’ non-stop flight, which took 10 hours and 35 minutes and involved five inflight refuellings, was directed by the French Strategic Air Forces (FAS) Command."

"The formation, which took off from Istres at 5 am on Tuesday, April 22, landed in mid-afternoon of the same day at Saint-Denis, after a flight lasting 10 hours and 35 minutes for the Rafales (including 5 in-flight refuellings) and 11 hours for the C 135 tanker. The detachment comprised forty people from the EC 1/91 "Gascogne" and 2/91 "Bretagne" squadrons, as well as support squadrons 15007 from Saint Dizier and 15.093 from Istres.



So 10.5 hours-----8877 Kms -----five refuelings+ full tanks in take off = 6 full fuel load.

3 big external load, two air to aim missiles and two air to ground bombs is the load,

give me the range .
"
I'm lazy.. please calculate
 

venkat

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when the senior scientist starts lobbying for extension, then it is time for him to be eased out and make way for the younger blood.
no text book will teach his life time contributions in a day in a ziffy in a classroom for the younger generation to learn and leapfrog!!!!
 

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