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Bhadra

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@Khagesh

there is no point quoting your such a long meaningless post..

So my only request is that you come to the point and discuss DRDO technology which is the forte of DRDO rather than garbles as you wrote which has nothing to do with tactics, strategy, diplomacy or common sense...
keep the topic in mind and please do not divert.
 

Bhadra

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Almost all the things you talked about in bold are actually in use and better than many countries are using including US in-terms of Light guns, Again a lot of false baseless arguments you are speaking blindly, Sound as rant !

Try best not to provoke others by calling them immature or anything else, Last i remember you consider this as an insult if used against you ..
please argue properly .....................................................
 
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Bhadra

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The joint trails are example of forgin influence in Military, Arjun which was made by third world Indians destroyed T-90s of very high class Russians technology, Now its DRDO fixing T-90 to be as par with Arjuns ..

The MK1, MK2 are not meant to produce just a product but establishing a eco - system which can research and produce product of its own needs without outside influence and dependency, DRDO is that answer and they are doing their work as good as they can or could under a Government which hated its own ..

People who are used to Screw driver technology and lack foresight, It is a inherited problem of colonial times and mind set..

Least said is better ..
The users are neither slaves nor captive mesmerized buyers. So let them decide.
 

pmaitra

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@Khagesh

there is no point quoting your such a long meaningless post..

So my only request is that you come to the point and discuss DRDO technology which is the forte of DRDO rather than garbles as you wrote which has nothing to do with tactics, strategy, diplomacy or common sense...
keep the topic in mind and please do not divert.
The post by @Khagesh makes some valid points.

It gives examples of how countries fought to preserve their independence at great human losses, also failed to adequately protect themselves due to lack of sufficient indigenous weapons making capabilities, especially weapons that cannot be bought, are under technology denial regimes, and without which, there can be no defense from marauding superpowers.

It is DRDO that provided India with sufficient means to put India in a position that no superpower will dare invade India like it happened in Iraq or Vietnam. So, has DRDO failed India? Heed your own advice, and keep the topic in mind.

Now, if you agree to keeping the topic in mind, please read the post by @Khagesh again. It is quite further from garbles, as you proclaim.
 

Bhadra

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So every one in the world should have nuclear weapons and missiles so the the world become a place of perfect peace ... universal nuclear armament ..you mean ??

And India is safe after nuclear armament .... it should carry out conventional forces disbarment. Why to have that ITBP boy at border ... as it is the moment Chinese soldiers are seen somewhere near LAC, India will throw her nuclear weapons at them ...

Why did Kargil happen so brazenly ?
Then why Indian Parliament was attacked ?
Why did Mumbai happened.

Further I thought DRDO was not near the red buttons nor responsible for India nuclear !

Atomic energy Commission I thought was different. Since when has DRDO started taking credit for what others do.

Can we remain on topic.
 

pmaitra

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So every one in the world should have nuclear weapons and missiles so the the world become a place of perfect peace ... universal nuclear armament ..you mean ??

And India is safe after nuclear armament .... it should carry out conventional forces disbarment. Why to have that ITBP boy at border ... as it is the moment Chinese soldiers are seen somewhere near LAC, India will throw her nuclear weapons at them ...

Why did Kargil happen so brazenly ?
Then why Indian Parliament was attacked ?
Why did Mumbai happened.

Further I thought DRDO was not near the red buttons nor responsible for India nuclear !

Atomic energy Commission I thought was different. Since when has DRDO started taking credit for what others do.

Can we remain on topic.
Sir, you want to know what I mean? I mean this, so please read it again.

The post by @Khagesh makes some valid points.

It gives examples of how countries fought to preserve their independence at great human losses, also failed to adequately protect themselves due to lack of sufficient indigenous weapons making capabilities, especially weapons that cannot be bought, are under technology denial regimes, and without which, there can be no defense from marauding superpowers.

It is DRDO that provided India with sufficient means to put India in a position that no superpower will dare invade India like it happened in Iraq or Vietnam. So, has DRDO failed India? Heed your own advice, and keep the topic in mind.

Now, if you agree to keeping the topic in mind, please read the post by @Khagesh again. It is quite further from garbles, as you proclaim.
 

Bhadra

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The world of "Defence" is too complicated and very dynamic to depend on any one thing. It has developed from throwing stones to throwing nuclear missiles.

Look at the right approach here:

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/natio...-manohar-parrikar’s-idea/ar-BBk6u1z?ocid=iehp
"
Saying he would take “proactive steps” to meet any threat to the country, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar Thursday said “you have to neutralise terrorist through terrorist only”.

To make his point, he quoted a Hindi saying “kaante se kaanta nikaalte hain” (you have to extract a thorn with a thorn) and said: “Why can’t we do it? We should do it. Why my soldier has to do it all the time?”

Responding to a question at Manthan Aaj Tak in New Delhi, Parrikar said: “If any country, why Pakistan, is planning something against my country, I will take proactive steps. Of course, not in the public domain. But what I have to do, I will do it. Whether it is diplomatic, whether it is pressure tactics or whether it is using the... woh usko bolte hain na Marathi mein kaante se kaanta nikaalte hain... Hindi mein bhi rahega... you have to neutralise terrorist through terrorist only.”

He is a nuclear capable Defence minister boss of DRDO .... Is not it ??
 

Bhadra

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DRDO And How they work on Projects



Staff projects taken up for delivery of products required by Defence Forces during the last 15 years met with varying success. Out of 46 closed projects scrutinized in audit, only 13 underwent production while in the remaining either no production was required or claims of success could not be substantiated in Audit. Projects were initiated without General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR). Frequent changes to QRs by Users, excessive time overrun also contributed to non realization of the project deliverables and in many cases this eventually led to import of items.

The Armament Research & Development Establishment Pune (ARDE) is a Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) Laboratory. ARDE like other DRDO laboratories takes up essentially two categories of projects namely Staff Projects and Technology Development Projects. Staff Projects are taken up on the basis of specific demands from the User Organizations- mainly the Services. These are expected to be based on well
defined requirements framed by Users29 in term of General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR). These projects usually involve deliverables within a specified time frame for induction in service.

Staff projects normally should be high priority projects taken up by DRDO based on well-defined User-requirements in terms of QR, deliverables and time frame. Successful Staff projects involve Technology transfer and postproject production activities. A Staff Project can be considered successful only if the deliverables in terms of equipments or systems are accepted by the Users for induction into service after satisfactory users’ trials, thereby leading to their bulk production. there has been lack of production and induction of the outcome of Staff Projects. Out of the 55 Staff Projects, 46 projects were closed and the remaining nine were ongoing as on February 2011. Of these 46 closed projects, only 13 closed projects, completed at a cost of ` 67.83 crore, underwent production.


http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home.../2011_12/Defence_Services/report_24/Chap7.pdf
 

Bhadra

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Case I: Design and Development of 120 mm Long Range Mortar (LRM) System and its ammunition

Based on GSQR, Department of Defence Research & Development in June 1997 sanctioned the development of LRM System at a cost of ` 9.52 crore with Probable Date of Completion (PDC) as June 2001. The scope of the project included development of a family of High explosive (HE), Smoke and Illuminating ammunition. The GSQR envisaged the weapon system to have a range of 10 Km, rate of fire of 8-10 bombs per minute, with a burst fire capability of 12-15 rounds per minute. For portability, the mass of the equipment was not to exceed 700 kg and the weight of the three main components required for man/mule packing was not to exceed 450 Kg. The system also had to be capable of being split into three convenient loads. Two prototypes of the weapon system were required for trials. In February 2000 Army HQ issued fresh GSQR which was silent as to the mass of the three main components of the equipment to facilitate handling by man and mule packing.

Till June 2001, only one weapon and 200 HE bombs could be offered for User trials. To avoid further delay, DRDO de-linked development of Smoke and Illuminating bombs from the main LRM project and sanctioned a separate Staff project in October 2003 for these at a cost of ` 5.85 crore with PDC as October 2006.

The LRM developed by DRDO could not achieve the GSQR parameters as the desired range and rate of fire or burst fire capability could not be met with a low weight Mortar which was an inconsistency in the GSQR framed by the Army. Director General (DG) Artillery, decided against going ahead with the project. As a result, DRDO foreclosed the main project from December 2004 after incurring expenditure of ` 9.29 crore. Subsequently the other project for Smoke and Illumination ammunition was also foreclosed in December 2005 after incurring an expenditure of ` 1.08 crore. ...............


Ministry in its reply agreed with audit and stated that decision has been taken to procure the item through global tenders ........... the Staff project could not come to fruition even after an expenditure of ` 10.37 crore.

http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/our_products/audit_report/government_wise/union_audit/recent_reports/union_compliance/2011_12/Defence_Services/report_24/Chap7.pdf
 

Bhadra

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Design & Development of 84 mm RL MK III along with its Ammunition


As replacement of in-service 84mm Rocket Launcher, a shoulder fired weapon, Army HQ, in November 1997, issued GSQR for design and
development of new light weight 84mm Rocket Launcher (RL MK III) along with five types of ammunition and sighting system. In contrast to the normal practice of taking up a project in totality, ARDE proposed to first develop the launcher, followed by the ammunition.

Project for development of Rocket Launcher was earlier sanctioned in April 1997 by DDRD at a cost of ` 75 lakh and PDC as October 1999 in anticipation of the Staff requirement. The launcher was stated to be successfully trial evaluated by DRDO and accordingly project was closed with effect from 31 March 2000 after an expenditure of ` 60.32 lakh. DDRD in February 2002 sanctioned a staff project for undertaking design and
development of ammunition for 84mm RL MK III by the laboratory at an estimated cost of ` 6.35 crore with PDC of four years.

DRDO was to offer five Light Weight Rocket Launchers for troop trials by March 2001 but it conveyed that tubes could be offered in June 2002 and that too without enhanced range sights and ammunition which would take another three years to develop. To meet the requirement of carrying out troop trials with modified tube, DDRD in March 2001 sanctioned another project at a cost of ` 90 lakh with PDC as November 2002. The launcher was claimed to be successfully trial evaluated under this project, and was closed in March 2004 at a cost of ` 79.96 lakh.

It was noticed in audit that Army HQ had concluded contract in March 2002 and March 2003 to procure 3000 Rocket Launchers Mk-III, 3000 telescopic sight and 36000 HEAT ammunition from M/s FFV, AB Sweden at a total cost of SEK 859.90 Million. Further OFB also entered into a contract in February 2005 with M/s FFV, AB Sweden for TOT for 84 mm RL MK-III Weapon and HEAT 551 ammunition at a cost of SEK 17 Million for which they received technology for all parts of the weapon except for Carbon Filament Winding (CFW) of the barrel. In the meantime Ordnance Factory Board received TOT of ammunition in 2005 consequent to which the project was foreclosed.

Ordnance Factory Board Kolkata informed the laboratory that the Army had an urgent requirement of the ammunition. As development of the ammunition would take further four years, the Users could not wait that long and had decided to import the launcher system and ammunition system. The Army also intimated that they did not need the indigenous system any more.
 

Bhadra

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I wish to tell the members that Carl Gustav is 1942 technology.
120mm Mortars are one of the largest used calibre mortar in the world that is a WW-I technology exsting in earlier version as 3 in Mortar. A lot of technological innovation has taken place in this system specially in its ammunition but remains the same old system in IA.
 

Khagesh

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Bhadra, you are losing your cool. And people see that. And then they form an opinion about your capacity for discussion and understanding.

Nonetheless here are a few genuine points that I could find. Mostly these are theoretical issues and I believe DRDO does figure in the answer to these questions.

Bhadra - "And India is safe after nuclear armament .... it should carry out conventional forces disbarment. Why to have that ITBP boy at border ... as it is the moment Chinese soldiers are seen somewhere near LAC, India will throw her nuclear weapons at them ..."
Regards the possibility you raise of sending the ITBP Jawan home:
My take is that he today fulfills the same role that Angad did in the court of Ravana. Angad was not there to fight. He was there to represent a bigger force. But to understand why it is so you will have to understand the Himalayas first and accept the overwhelming existence of it.

Himalayas are a terrain that is largely difficult to understand for a person from the plains, which I presume you are. In Himalayas sight can easily go right upto a horizon that is much much longer than in the plains. And yet all the while you can be completely oblivious of what is happening just on the reverse side of the mountain you stand on. Stretched to a plane, Himalayas will probably cover the whole of the plains of India. And the mountains make you hear sounds and see sights, that are not there near you. In such a terrain even large armies (if not trained) can be simply lost (a large number of pilgrims lost after the Kedarnath deluge never were seen and they could never make it out). Alternatively if the armies are very well trained then they can make themselves untraceable/unreachable for long periods (Kargil). Energy gets sapped something like four times faster and despite that you cannot cover long distances with full load, unlike in the plains. Patrolling parties often miss the intrusions by the other side. Fighting if it happens has to be arranged for, like in your own example of Nathu La 67 where both sides knew already where the other was and one side kept up the hammering like a gold jeweler and the other side hammered ultimately like an Iron smith. Mere stationing of even half our army over there makes little impact by itself. That is why we need to equip them differently and equip them better. Yes, under such a situation it makes little sense to rely solely on a foot soldiers. One man or even a bunch are simply too fragile for the terrain itself against which you will have to put 90% of your efforts, driving towards your chosen goal. And these thing apply to both sides in a conflict. There really is nothing to stop the Chinese from doing several Kargils to us in the Himalayas. Only they themselves do not know how to manage after the IA gets into the act and uses the same terrain to cut off their intruders. It is only the people from the plains on both sides who imagine riding tanks in small flat lands that exist in Himalayas. Beyond Himalayas and into Tibet its plain again but the border is the real intimidating part with virtually nil lateral connectivity.

The Nukes that BARC made and the missiles that DRDO made are not there to ensure that no fighting ever happens. They are there to ensure that the ladder to total destruction can be rode easily and thus when the two sides sit across the table negotiating peace there is no confusion in anybody’s mind, bearing irrelevant ‘what ifs’. Questions like :
  • What if we hold out a little longer? or
  • What if we get those two features? or
  • What if we encircle over there before we negotiate? or
  • What if we genocide a few million more at the rate of a few tens of thousands per day for so many days?
Do not remain relevant and cannot stop a negotiation.

You either mount the challenge or you get out. These kind of weapons bring the control issues right to the front seat instead of relegating them behind a bunch of small lalchi people. Fortunately for us IA has a culture for fighting well pointed, well directed and well controlled wars. But that is not the case with the two other sides that we face. They need to be enabled for our kind of understanding of war. These beeg weapons help achieve that. Off course they too have their beeg weapons, but then they don’t need beeg weapons to be dastardly. Their acts come from within their own tentative, unsure minds. And it always helps an unsure mind find certainty, if he sees difficulties on a certain path. He will ignore the difficult path.

It is actually the IA Generals that had the maximum inputs in the formulation of a deterrent strategy and managing deterrence around the Indian Subcontinent. IA was the first to handle these weapons. Rhetorically in the vein you are voicing your arguments, it too can asked, why IA bothered to handle these weapons if they saw no ‘use’ for them in their duties.

Both BARC and DRDO are merely trudging along the path already chalked out by IA several years back.

Bhadra - "Why did Kargil happen so brazenly ?
Then why Indian Parliament was attacked ?
Why did Mumbai happened."
Regards why these terrorist attacks or small skirmishes take place, my take is that these happen because the other side can no longer act the way they did till 62 and 71. They are essentially admitting that this is the hardest they can now hit. They having already considered the circumstances and possibilities. That is why we need to block for good these paths also.

And I admit DRDO has little capacity/role here. Probably just some surveillance equipment, is what they can manage to design or indigenize, that too if they are asked to do it and with a ton of other things to care for before they even embark on these. Also most of this surveillance equipment is already off the shelf available.

The best way to tackle these would be build-up NTRO into a US-NSA styled organization and provide more resources to RAW, Military Intel, IB, SSB etc.
 

ersakthivel

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I don't know what you want to achieve by mocking me ?

Okay Tejas is 1000x better than Rafale.

All Delhites who voted for AAP are idiots.

I hope that has made your day, Sir.
http://idrw.org/36-rafale-is-final-number-to-be-purchased-parrikar/#more-64705

Obviously manohar Parrikar an IIT graduate also thinks that saving money by cutting rafale numbers to just 36 and using the saved money to buy hundreds of tejas is the right idea after spending enough time in office , after receiving all strategic inputs, eventhough he is satisfied only with ,"a certain extent " in tejas capabilities ,

And only delhites will decide what they did by voting AAP is right or wrong when the next election comes.So lets see it then.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to Paris, last month requested the French government to supply 36 Rafale fighters in a G2G deal and French teams are already in India to draft final purchase agreement.

Parrikar Confirmed that Money saved on not purchasing more Rafale fighter jets will allow Government more funds which will be diverted to LCA Tejas Project.

” I have saved the cost of 90 Rafales and Now we can buy more Tejas “said Parrikar and also said MMRCA or Rafale was never meant to replace Mig-21s in IAF fleet, but it will be Cheaper and lighter Tejas fighter jets which will take its place .

When asked if he is satisfied with Performance of Tejas, Parrikar responded by saying he is satisfied up to a certain level and went on to add that Safety aspect of the aircraft is Excellent and he has no doubts about that .
Hope this post stays as I haven't made any personal attacks on any one!!!
 

ersakthivel

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I feel PSU's are impaired by default due to the reason behind their conception. An organization whose main goal was to provide jobs and THEN make profits will falter. An organization cannot compete by just nationalist drive, which will and has faltered over the years.

I am aserting a few of these statements based on the fact that many of my family members worked in PSU's. A case was the establishment of Rourkella Steel Plant which was to be set up by HEC ranchi. Both being PSU's. Now the whole project was shipped off to LnT in the final week though HEC had all the designs and implementation projects ready. Why was this takeover possible? Many beleive it was private org bribing the contract away. But that is how businesses work. Hostile take over and cut throat business practices will always be a norm. The concept of state ownership just does not leave enough tools in the hands of PSU's to compete.

PSU's cannot do away with labour freedom. The job security and politics prevelent in PSU's just does not allow higher officials to meet targets.

Also if you think it is just the public that has a thing against PSU's you cannot be more wrong. PSU's themselves do not trust other PSU's on meeting deliveries. ISRO ended up setting most of the critical manufacturing units by themselves. So does DRDO. Heck I have been there in conversation between to designers from PSU's. The ISRO designer telling the desingner from other PSU - ' We(ISRO) do not doubt that your design for launch platform is good. But we do not know if you can deliver it on time.'

And i know most of this is my personal experience and does not qualify to much, but the problems of competitivness are systemic in PSU's. That is why the delays are so high.
GOI should encourage private industries in all spheres including defence. there are no two opinions about it. Competition ensures the best quality .


no one denies the issues with PSUs anywhere in the world.but they do deliver many worthwhile stuff.

Most of IA and IAF weapons are from Russian PSUs as well.


Recent news is ISRO has chosen HAL as their vendor for the all too important cryogenic engines.
 

ersakthivel

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DRDO And How they work on Projects



Staff projects taken up for delivery of products required by Defence Forces during the last 15 years met with varying success. Out of 46 closed projects scrutinized in audit, only 13 underwent production while in the remaining either no production was required or claims of success could not be substantiated in Audit. Projects were initiated without General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR). Frequent changes to QRs by Users, excessive time overrun also contributed to non realization of the project deliverables and in many cases this eventually led to import of items.

The Armament Research & Development Establishment Pune (ARDE) is a Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) Laboratory. ARDE like other DRDO laboratories takes up essentially two categories of projects namely Staff Projects and Technology Development Projects. Staff Projects are taken up on the basis of specific demands from the User Organizations- mainly the Services. These are expected to be based on well
defined requirements framed by Users29 in term of General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR). These projects usually involve deliverables within a specified time frame for induction in service.

Staff projects normally should be high priority projects taken up by DRDO based on well-defined User-requirements in terms of QR, deliverables and time frame. Successful Staff projects involve Technology transfer and postproject production activities. A Staff Project can be considered successful only if the deliverables in terms of equipments or systems are accepted by the Users for induction into service after satisfactory users’ trials, thereby leading to their bulk production. there has been lack of production and induction of the outcome of Staff Projects. Out of the 55 Staff Projects, 46 projects were closed and the remaining nine were ongoing as on February 2011. Of these 46 closed projects, only 13 closed projects, completed at a cost of ` 67.83 crore, underwent production.


http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home.../2011_12/Defence_Services/report_24/Chap7.pdf
Compare it with the world wide averages of success and failures and give us a rational comparison.

Arjun and tejas still a story,

http://idrw.org/36-rafale-is-final-number-to-be-purchased-parrikar/#more-64705
manohar Parrikar doesn't thinks so.
 

Bhadra

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Bhadra

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In Himalayas sight can easily go right upto a horizon that is much much longer than in the plains
Why ? Is the earth flat here ? Only the observer is at height when all his surroundings are at msl? a mountain chain just 1km ahead of the observer would be his horizon/ You have never been there. however the same observer can see Chaukhamba 300 kms away if there is lower ground in between him and the object. But horizon is farther in mountains is not the rule. In deep gorgeous valies horizon could stare at you from just nearby.

And yet all the while you can be completely oblivious of what is happening just on the reverse side of the mountain you stand on
Hah, when you stand on top of the mountain or ridgeline at any point you can see both sides of the hill.

Rest all and even above has nothing to do with subject. Even if one is writing an essay the theme has to be the Topic and not Himalayas.
 

Khagesh

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Bhadra you have pasted a large number of projects that DRDO failed.

And all have 3 characterstics in common:
1) Given to DRDO and DRDO failed;
2) Money lost is minimal;
3) Time lost is huge;
4) After a lot of time is wasted the relevant armed forces order imports

In this regard can you tell us:
1) why must the DRDO do these things in the first place?
2) If you want DRDO to do these things then who will do the other stuff that is 'less important' like missiles, aviation designs and indeginization?
3) Was it difficult in these cases for the armed forces to seek progress? Why did the imports wait for so long?
 

Bhadra

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The Research & Development Establishment (Engineers) [R&DE (E)]

http://www.saiindia.gov.in/english/...mpliance/2012_13/Defence/Report_16/Chap_7.pdf

The Research & Development Establishment (Engineers) [R&DE (E)] Dighi is a laboratory set up at Pune in 1962 under Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) with the primary role of development of mobility and counter mobility equipments for the Corps of Engineers. Over the years, the establishment has also diversified into development of ground system engineering for missile and other weapon systems. Staff Projects taken up for delivery of products required by Defence Services during the last 15 years achieved minimal success. Out of 19
closed Staff Projects only 3 underwent production, 2 partly achieved the project requirement and remaining 14 could not achieve success in terms of acceptance by the users. Projects were initiated without firm Staff Qualitative Requirement (SQR). Excess time overrun, failure of the laboratory to develop the desired deliverables and mismanagement in post development activities contributed to projects' failure.

 
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