DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[Ray]

@Khagesh,

It is difficult to glean from your rather periphrastic posts what exactly you wish to state.

Even if the components are imported we still need people who integrate these components and develop the final systems.

Isn't that obvious?

What's so earthshaking about that?

For example, Boeings and Airbus is not manufactured in India and yet the maintenance and changing of assemblies are done by Indian technicians.

Also the counting of import content on component basis was resorted to during the UPA-2 years itself probably on account of the fact that the UPA always wanted to push imports & westernization and starve local production and research.

UPA 2 was rudderless and Anthony dreaded being wrapped up in some scam or the other. That is why there was this doldrums.

What exactly did the UPA push for imports & westernization?

People who cared for Indian backbone in MIC have even during the UPA rule, sacrificed careers and reputations and done much more than is visible or admitted on TV channels. People can build a list themselves.

Really?

Accha how is it that the armed forces cannot import an Agni BM or a Nuke sub or an SLBM, so these items are never criticised.

In the current they could not get the medium ranged SAM and an assortment of radars, at the low prices their budgets could pay for, after the import binge and today they happily put in orders for Akash etc.

Armed Forces do not import, the Govt does.

The Armed Forces gives the priority of weaponry to meet the Threat as per the Threat Analysis and the Govt balance the Budget.

I am not privy to the Threat Analysis or have walked the corridors of power of late and so I cannot comment as to why Akash has got predominance over others. Maybe since you know, you could educate us.

I believe Akash is a DRDO missile. In take comfort that an Indian product has got the priority in the Threat Negation.

For tomorrow it is already known that nobody is going to export jet engines for UCAVs and UAVs. Because that would violate MTCR.

http://mrunal.org/2014/11/diplomacy-nirbhay-missile-cold-start-doctrine-mtcr.html

 

[Bhadra]

Let us get back to the Topic :

DRDO is one of the most supported and pampered organisation employing more than required support and auxiliary staff :

 

[Bhadra]

The Kind of projects undertaken by DRDO and research money spent on those are an important indicator what DRDO does. It may be observed that DRDO undertakes maximum projects in Mission Mode. These projects are applied research in nature, normally based on technologies that are proven and readily accessible/ available,

 

[power_monger]

Let us get back to the Topic :

DRDO is one of the most supported and pampered organisation employing more than required support and auxiliary staff :

Can you start listing the project cost comparison of DRDO vs other Defence research agencies?We can go project by project basis and you will find out how DRDO manages to get products almost within 1/10th of the cost their peer defence agence manages in.

 

[Ray]

Can you start listing the project cost comparison of DRDO vs other Defence research agencies?We can go project by project basis and you will find out how DRDO manages to get products almost within 1/10th of the cost their peer defence agence manages in.

That won't work out since the currency value is not similar, nor is the cost of the product, cost of labour etc.

 

[Bhadra]

There always a crib from the DRDO that they are underfunded. That may not be such a case if we compare their being underfunded with underfunding of the Armed Forces within the defence budget

 

[Bhadra]

DRDO had been created to achieve Self Reliance but have they achieved that in their products and projects? They accuse others (specially the generals etc) for being import oriented but how much they themselves import?

 

[Bhadra]

Can you start listing the project cost comparison of DRDO vs other Defence research agencies?We can go project by project basis and you will find out how DRDO manages to get products almost within 1/10th of the cost their peer defence agency manages in.

Other defence related organisation hardly carry out any research in the country. So comparison is difficult.

 

[Khagesh]

@Khagesh,

It is difficult to glean from your rather periphrastic posts what exactly you wish to state.

Ray sir I had to look up periphrastic on google :biggrin2:. I have been as direct as one forum member can get with other, seeking and taking the benefit of past info-base of both. I know you and a lot of others are oldies on the net. I have read these forums since long and some other sources even longer. If there is still something that you seek clarification on I will be willing.

Isn't that obvious?

What's so earthshaking about that?

For example, Boeings and Airbus is not manufactured in India and yet the maintenance and changing of assemblies are done by Indian technicians.

I was talking about systems integration that would ultimately allow for search for alternatives. So we do not get blackmailed when the time comes for a real fight. Maintenance is not going to be a life or death issue for the whole nation.

UPA 2 was rudderless and Anthony dreaded being wrapped up in some scam or the other. That is why there was this doldrums.

What exactly did the UPA push for imports & westernization?

No sir, nothing in this world is rudderless. UPA had its rudders in some other mans hands. They were very much accurate and faithful to those masters.

Armed Forces do not import, the Govt does.

The Armed Forces gives the priority of weaponry to meet the Threat as per the Threat Analysis and the Govt balance the Budget.

Armed forces also stock for spares (or not), recommend systems worthy of induction after fair trails (or not), support indigenization measures (or not), rate threat perceptions fairly with the benefit of intel inputs without compromising the sources (or not), Act repository of strategic priorities by keeping the (or not). And at least the IAF has revealed its hands in this regard. IAF behaviour on all these counts is present in open sources.

I am not privy to the Threat Analysis or have walked the corridors of power of late and so I cannot comment as to why Akash has got predominance over others. Maybe since you know, you could educate us.

I believe Akash is a DRDO missile. In take comfort that an Indian product has got the priority in the Threat Negation.

Sir, you are not the type to walk the corridors of power :biggrin2:. Only double faced traitors or cutthroat patriots capable of aborting these double faced traitors walk the corridors of power. Corridors of power have a heightened capacity to turn people's heads. Such people ultimately do not retire to start speaking to people on net forums. My take is you are exactly as aam as I am, though considerably more experienced and considerably senior.

http://mrunal.org/2014/11/diplomacy-nirbhay-missile-cold-start-doctrine-mtcr.html

You are reading this site wrongly. MTCR comes into effect when any of the 3 preconditions met - (1nd) Proliferation/Transfer across boundaries + (2nd) >= 300 km range + (3rd) >= 500 kg mass.

Nirbhay escapes because it involves no transfer of tech (the owner of that site also acknowledges it down on the page). Indic UCAVs when they come will also escape for same reason. HALE UAVs that are available to India and carry a jet engine are available only with appropriate sanitization. The engines that go into these HALE UAVs will still not be available as a singular item because of their dual usage capacity or at least India will have to jump hoops to convince and sign away all freedom during war time.

 

[Khagesh]

There always a crib from the DRDO that they are underfunded. That may not be such a case if we compare their being underfunded with underfunding of the Armed Forces within the defence budget

Sir, the underfunding starts since before the budgeting stage itself. Wrong projects and right ones are underfunded like I am sure we will find the case with the funding curtailment for Kaveri even when Kaveri did 57 hours continuous tests in Russia. Still searching for it but promise to report whatever the facts - even if unpalatable for me.

What is right-funding is proved by Modi when he fired the boss, gave them an earful but still gave them 50% more funding.

 

[Ray]

Ray sir I had to look up periphrastic on google :biggrin2:. I have been as direct as one forum member can get with other, seeking and taking the benefit of past info-base of both. I know you and a lot of others are oldies on the net. I have read these forums since long and some other sources even longer. If there is still something that you seek clarification on I will be willing.

You have read the forums.

I have worked practically with all these organisations and seen them up close.

That is the difference - theoretical vs practical.

I was talking about systems integration that would ultimately allow for search for alternatives. So we do not get blackmailed when the time comes for a real fight. Maintenance is not going to be a life or death issue for the whole nation.

What systems integration? The systems are foreign and so their integration is no big shake.

However, if one is to reverse engineer the foreign system, then that is another story. DRDO is woeful in such pursuits and I say that with some practical and most disappointing experience.

No sir, nothing in this world is rudderless. UPA had its rudders in some other mans hands. They were very much accurate and faithful to those masters.

If the rudder is not with the coxswain, then it is taken to be rudderless'

Armed forces also stock for spares (or not), recommend systems worthy of induction after fair trails (or not), support indigenization measures (or not), rate threat perceptions fairly with the benefit of intel inputs without compromising the sources (or not), Act repository of strategic priorities by keeping the (or not). And at least the IAF has revealed its hands in this regard. IAF behaviour on all these counts is present in open sources.

No one but the armed forces stock spares, systems, ammunition and so on. That is what the Ordnance Depots are for.

How did IAF reveal the 'hand'?

Sir, you are not the type to walk the corridors of power :biggrin2:. Only double faced traitors or cutthroat patriots capable of aborting these double faced traitors walk the corridors of power. Corridors of power have a heightened capacity to turn people's heads. Such people ultimately do not retire to start speaking to people on net forums. My take is you are exactly as aam as I am, though considerably more experienced and considerably senior.

Since you do not know me, you would not know that I spoke my mind while I was in service too. I would with modesty state that I am still remembered for the same

You are reading this site wrongly. MTCR comes into effect when any of the 3 preconditions met - (1nd) Proliferation/Transfer across boundaries + (2nd) >= 300 km range + (3rd) >= 500 kg mass.

Nirbhay escapes because it involves no transfer of tech (the owner of that site also acknowledges it down on the page). Indic UCAVs when they come will also escape for same reason. HALE UAVs that are available to India and carry a jet engine are available only with appropriate sanitization. The engines that go into these HALE UAVs will still not be available as a singular item because of their dual usage capacity or at least India will have to jump hoops to convince and sign away all freedom during war time.

If you read about Nirbhay, you would realise that there was a school that considered it a violation of MTCR.

 

[Khagesh]

Here you can see Dr. V K Saraswat himself confirming that the new engine project will be an organic growth of the Kaveri experience.

 

[Ray]

Here you can see Dr. V K Saraswat himself confirming that the new engine project will be an organic growth of the Kaveri experience.

I have heard of many bombast and attended seminars that practically made us feel that foreigners are learning from us.

 

[Khagesh]

Ray sir, one man can be bombastic but would you call the whole organisation so.

I could not find the direct evidence/link about kaveri fundings related issues (budgets etc.) but here is the indirect ones.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2014/12/jet-engine-lag.html

This was published in The Week but the link is dead now. Here are the attributed quotes and comparatives:

JET ENGINE LAG

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 09, 2014 BY INDIANDEFENSE NEWS

Four years ago, when Indian aero-engineers walked into the Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow, they were shocked to see Chinese engineers there. The Indians had come to flight-test Kaveri, India's first indigenous jet engine. The Chinese, too, had come on a similar mission. And, the Indian engineers were worried whether the Chinese would beat them to it.

<snip>

Kaveri, which was developed at the Bengaluru-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the Defence Research and Development Organisation, successfully completed the sub-sonic test in Moscow by flying a giant Ilyushin-76 aircraft. The Chinese test was a failure. Four years later, however, it seems the Kaveri story is going to have a sad end, while the Chinese are making steady progress with their project.


Back from Russia, lack of funds significantly slowed down Kaveri's progress. "We have shortage of funds to even run the five prototype engines which have been produced so far. It is difficult to procure fuel for the engines," says GTRE director C.P. Ramanarayanan.

The Chinese story, on the other hand, turned out to be completely different. After their engineers returned with the failed engine, the Chinese government opened its purse-strings and invested more than $60 billion for developing its aerospace sector of which a significant portion was spent on the jet engine programme. China has "gone crazy for making aircraft," says a recent white paper prepared by renowned aerospace scientist Roddam Narasimha.


Flush with funds, the Chinese burnt the midnight jet-fuel and put their WS-10 turbofan engine on a few prototypes of their J-10 fighters, and flew them. "But they are still far from developing the engine for squadron service," says a GTRE scientist. "We can also fly Kaveri suboptimally, as the Chinese are doing, but we don't have test aircraft for that. We are waiting for just one old MiG-29 for testing."


Anyway, Narasimha's paper, prepared last year, had some effect on the Manmohan Singh government. When GTRE asked for half a million dollars in the budget, the babus returned the request, saying it was "suboptimal", and with the advice to ask for more. This gave them hope. "The Chinese haven't yet succeeded in finalising the engine for squadron service. We can still catch up, because we have already addressed the issues on making the engine supersonic. We needed only funds to test," says the scientist.

MMS was moved a little but Modi was moved even without the paper by Rodham Narasimha.


http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/o...roject-gtre-gets-revival-package-1565505.html

Sources said that the DRDO has sanctioned Rs 300 crore for GTRE to take up future projects. "The lab is gearing up to take up some futuristic projects and the sanctions have been already given. Another additional sanction of Rs 700 crore is on its way to help realize these gen-next technologies," an official said.

Sources confirm that a separate proposal of Rs 2,600 crore to develop engines for an ‘ambitious project' is under consideration now. The lab has been given another Rs 70 crore for a strategic programme .

"Yes. These are part of the bold stand being taken by DRDO. Whereever we have found bottlenecks for long time, with no realistic solutions, it's better to move on. It is an honest stand we are taking," Tamilmani said.


Sources said that the MoF has sought some clarifications from DRDO on the Kaveri project, before the matter could finally reach the CCS.

"This is not the end of the road. We have identified some 12 core areas of technologies and various teams are already at it. Years of hard work put in by the team won't go waste either," Dr Ramanarayanan, a torpedo specialist

While Dr Ramanarayanan, is a torpedo specialist but Dr. V K Saraswat's interview linked earlier and at other places Dr. Avinash Chandra and the clarifications sought suggest that Kaveri will live on, at least in spirit if not in body. And the new body will come alive.

They probably just want to deflect the import lobby - I am not sure. That Kaveri is not going onto LCA or AMCA was decided in the UPA itself. 'Shelving' kaveri added nothing new to the mix. 'Shelving' in any case becomes necessary if the funding for even aviation fuel is nearly embargoed. They were crazy expecting a Mig 29 or Su 30MKI from the earlier establishment.

 

[Khagesh]

DRDO had been created to achieve Self Reliance but have they achieved that in their products and projects? They accuse others (specially the generals etc) for being import oriented but how much they themselves import?

Feels great to note that you are giving links now. Laxman Kumar Behera indeed.

This was published in ~Jan 2014. Just when the UPA masters knew they would get exposed and this guy Behera says:

The high import dependency in licence manufacturing is best exemplified by the SU-30 MKI, of which the HAL is manufacturing 222 units in four phases since 2004-05. Although, HAL has embarked on the last phase of manufacturing the aircraft from the raw materials (supposed to be the highest form of indigenisation of the aircraft), the maximum indigenisation it has achieved so far is only 33 percent.

Here is what was actual position as reported in October 2014.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2014/10/first-sukhoi-30-overhauled-at-nashik.html

chief of HAL’s Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: “More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India.

Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components --- or 73 per cent --- are now being built in India.

53 per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys --- proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with.

What does that say about the man’s credibility?

No sir there is not confusion in the source materials.

But the release dates of the source materials from which Behera quotes may be off by a few years . His report may not exactly be designed for being fair. While at the same time he may actually be scrupulously accurate. Question is Why? Why is he using some older data? Or even if his original report was older (he quotes sources upto 2013) why was the same released in Jan 2014? What was the role of IDSA?

 

[venkat]

stop this DRDO bashing....How many of you know how our nuclear capable missile program has become successful against stiff US resistance? It is due to the vision of late Mrs Gandhi and APJ Kalam sahab....!!!! The scientists who made Prithvi,Agni ,akash and Brahmos successful, it is due to their selfless dedication and sheer hard work!!!

 

[Hari Sud]

DRDO succeeded a lot, yes they failed in a few major cases but not as miserably as some of the discussion above. Some of the failures were outside DRDO control. Changes in LCA specs by the Air Force many times is one reason; then asking too much from DRDO about Arjun Tank that too at the last moment. Then not to forget that LCA was confiscated by US government in 1998-01 while on wind tunnel tests in US. US delayed even supply of GE engine under one pretext or the other. Is every one aware that Arjun tank engine was sabotaged a few times and blame was laid at DRDO. That blame was proven to false but DRDO was blamed for delays.

Come on critics, tell me, whether new war is going to break out tomorrow; or it is on hold as our enemies are in worst shape than critics projected Indian Army is. Then do not forget those arms merchants with glossy blue brochure get into the army hierarchy's head and they start dreaming about newer and better weapons and write specs to match. These weapons exist on the paper only; they have failed when tried in Indian conditions (Rifle is an example), hence why foul mouth DRDO.

Yes, public sector hierarchy is cumbersome to manage. But we have now a leader who is all set to shake this lethargy of. He has already fired the DRDO head foe encouraging groupism. Other changes are coming.

So wait, it will be a different DRDO very soon

 

[Bhadra]

I have given only facts and not openions..

all others are self generated opinions .. though I have no objection to those.

However, bash the facts and not the person like Laxman Kumar Behera.

The problem is that DRDO's success is measured only in terms of missiles ( rightly not talking anything of ISRO) typically by people like @venkat

However, missiles are not only thing for the defence of the country. There are critical technologies identified and can any DRDO fan tell me what is the achievement on those areas. For their ease I produce a table below :

 

[Khagesh]

I have given only facts and not openions..

all others are self generated opinions .. though I have no objection to those.

However, bash the facts and not the person like Laxman Kumar Behera.

The problem is that DRDO's success is measured only in terms of missiles ( rightly not talking anything of ISRO) typically by people like @venkat

However, missiles are not only thing for the defence of the country. There are critical technologies identified and can any DRDO fan tell me what is the achievement on those areas. For their ease I produce a table below :

The list is titled by Behera as "List of 26 Critical Defence Technologies"

The list on DRDO sites reads as:

List of Critical Defence Technology Areas and Test Facilities for Acquisition by DRDO through Offsets (To be reviewed periodically)

1) So as are reader can well guess the criticality may arise on account of testing also. IOW the country is at a stage where even the testing equipment is not present.
2) the list is to be reviewed periodically. That implies the user requirements may change in some cases. Development may already be going on in some cases (eg. Double Base Propellants). And some technologies may not even ultimately be found to be needed in future.
3) since the listing is a bare list with no descriptions it is very likely that in some of the cases the item listed is put their in a generic manner. Esp. for LO the available open source material suggests that it is the diagnostic sensors and patch antennas they are looking for. This is not about the mathematics of faceted aerodynamic surfaces. AMCA is going to be indigenous design without off sets help but since antenna requirements and test sensors may end up being unique so they have put it there in the list. If you observe the surface texture of the chinese J-31 you will notice some perturbations as if some wires and sensors are not flush fitted to the fuselage.
4) the list also mentions things where we already do work but the user requirements may be expected in different form factors and with modified parameters. In such cases the whole development cycle may have to be repeated. But then remember you have only 7500 weapons designers and most of them are only Graduate engineers or less.
5) in some case like Pulse Power sources and high power lasers work already goes on behind curtains but related or dedicated to the Nuke research. The more run of the mill, conventional armed forces requirement requires more customization and mostly available off the shelf. But even for these off the shelf items the armed forces would like to have some degree of supply and service assurance. Hence it is there in the list. In any case in such systems nobody is going to share the cutting edge, whatever the price you pay.

Thus it would obviously mean that some of these are a mixed list. And obviously somebody asked DRDO to prepare this list, else who wastes his time making lists. And then finally this lists made by DRDO to show where the work may likely need to be done is used to bash DRDO asking them 'Abhi tak nahi kiya'. How much more funny can this get, when people like Behara have to rely on the people he has to criticize, to be able to criticize them, properly.

@Bhadra it is ok that a lie on facts about indigenisation of Su30MKI appears like a difference of opinion to you. But would you have an opinion also on why the list is messed with by Behara or by whoever edited Behara.

Also would like to have your opinion if the Armed Forces even have any idea about how to put some of these technologies to actual use once they get something like this. Like say the EM Rail Guns or Miniature SAR/ISAR technologies. Kya use hota hai inka.

The list is a guidance tool not a basis for writing a monograph. If somebody still ends up writing it and somebody else ends up reading it then they both do it at their own personal risk.

 

[Khagesh]

Accha Bhadra bhai kindly tell me what the hell is MET Projectile. I don't know what it is. But to be able to criticize and to be able to confirm if the criticism is valid I need to know what the hell it means.