DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[porky_kicker]

Akash resupply vehicle with missile rounds in individual pressurized storage containers.

This is not the latest pic though , the vehicle has since got some modifications

 

[Chinmoy]

The IAF lost 13 of its MiG-27Ms aircraft between 2001 and 2016. In the last 10 years, 11 MiG-27Ms, have crashed. Subsequent boards of inquiry shockingly revealed that majority of the MiG-27Ms went down because of “engine-related technical defects” like perennial engine oil leaks from ill-serviced fuel-pumps of the R29B-300 turbofans. Nearly 40% of these turbofans and related accessories licence-produced by HAL’s Koraput Division had to be returned by the IAF for some or the other defects. The problems ranged from oil leaks, metallic particles in oil filters and hot-air leaks from rear casings to troubles in compressor-blades and even in the turbines.

Most of the cause factors can be classified as defects during manufacturing or overhauling processes. The MiG-27M suffered Low-Pressure Turbine Rotor (LPTR) failures in at least 11 incidents. HAL in some cases even lied while overhauling the LPTR, saying that it had followed the overhaul manual, but subsequent IAF investigations revealed that the procedure recommended by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) was not being implemented by HAL. Such lapses had also led to previous crashes of MiG-21 Bisons. The springs installed in the fuel pump of the MiG-21 Bison’s R25-300 turbofans were failing frequently. A MiG-21 Bison crashed in November 2012 in Gujarat, which was attributed to spring failure. Of the five main fuel-pumps fitted with HAL-manufactured springs, at least three springs failed, which is unforgivable as it would have certainly resulted in accidents. Shockingly, the main fuel pumps of the MiG-21 Bison continue to leak fuel, despite four studies conducted and implemented since the 1990s. Despite incorporating changes, fuel leak from the main fuel-pump has continued unabated from throttle-end.

However, another reason behind the poor quality of production and engine repairs is attributed to mass production work in the last leg of a production year in order to achieve the projected target. For example, in the first six months of 2012-2013 production year, HAL finished overhaul work on only four RD-33 turbofans of the MiG-29B-12, but in the last quarter of the year, four RD-33 were completely overhauled within three months. Similarly for the R29B-300s, HAL finished overhauling nine engines in nine months, but interestingly another nine engines were completed within the last three months. The issue was flagged by the IAF, saying that such industrial productivity trends were adversely affecting the quality of overhauled turbofans.

Thus, it appears that HAL was not interested in providing quality turbofans to the IAF and instead was only interested in meeting the production numbers every year. There is also an impression that the workforce in HAL deliberately delayed the production to last three months to earn few extra bucks for ‘overtime’ perks, which is disgusting, given the fact that human lives are at stake. Interestingly, throughout their service-lives, none of the MiG-23BNs, which had come off-the-shelf from IAPA, displayed any engine-related equipment malfunctions!

@south block
:biggrin2:
HAL IS THE BEST IN EXTENDING TIME LINES AND TAKING TEA BREAKS.

It happens when the end product is not yours. Blaming HAL entirely would not be correct. After all they were engaged to service a part about which they have no idea. On top of that there was always the issue of raw material supply. Jet engines are precisely constructed engineering marvels. The JUGAAD tech is not going to work. For overhauling an engine, one needs to have the expertise and ample amount of spares. Both were not there with HAL. Russians didn't invested in technician trainings and the spare and raw material supply chain too was pathetic.

So the onus lies on all the involved parties, not alone HAL.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

It happens when the end product is not yours. Blaming HAL entirely would not be correct. After all they were engaged to service a part about which they have no idea. On top of that there was always the issue of raw material supply. Jet engines are precisely constructed engineering marvels. The JUGAAD tech is not going to work. For overhauling an engine, one needs to have the expertise and ample amount of spares. Both were not there with HAL. Russians didn't invested in technician trainings and the spare and raw material supply chain too was pathetic.

So the onus lies on all the involved parties, not alone HAL.

Most of the countries be it UK china turkey Europe countries etc don't fully manufacture jets but they create parts sub parts and unlike india parts created by them are not of poor quality.
Claiming that HAL didn't have enough TOT is totally laughable when that jet was 75% indigenous( more than our current tejas) In all, 95 MiG-23BNs were delivered between late 1980 and late 1982 and they served with No.10 ‘Winged Dagger’. No.220 ‘Desert Tigers’ and No.221 ‘Valiants’ Sqns between January 1981 and March 6, 2009 and having flown more than 154,000 hours), with each carrying a 3-tonne weapons payload. The IAF subsequently began procuring 165 MiG-27Ms (however, only 125 of which were licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or HAL between 1986 and 1992) for equipping No.222 ‘Tiger Sharks; No.2 ‘Winged Arrows’, No.18 ‘Flying Bullets’, No.29 ‘Scorpions’, and No.22 ‘Swifts’ Sqns from October 1984 till May 2, 1992. Each MiG-27M could haul a 4-tonne weapons payload. Of these, 40 were subsequently upgraded to MiG-27UPG standard—the upgrade work involving only the mission avionics suite. Latter batches of HAL-built MiG-27Ms had 74% local industrial content.

If they had enough TOT to build it in past correctly then what happened afterwards?
And IAF reports clearly claimed that it's because HAL didn't followed OEM instructions that's why jets are crashing. And not to forget to generate capabilities government pays billions to other parties to transfer technology and slow companies like HAL cannot even tap that technology correctly. If it's clear that companies like HAL cannot even build the parts for which they have received TOT then their is no point in asking others to start a supply line in india.
Because of sub quality products and inferior work culture dassault totally rejected working with HAL.

We can always keep our eyes closed and keep blaming other parties no worries. And keep cheering HAL is best best but reality is totally opposite.

 

[patriots]

tejas nlca will land on vikramditya ...any day.......
Indian scientists are doing marvels with limited budget

 

[IndianHawk]

If it's clear that companies like HAL cannot even build the parts for which they have received TOT then their is no point in asking others to start a supply line in india.

Isn't that hyperbole when hal has built lch , alh , htt40 by itself . Designed and build.

Yes it's work culture needs improvement but let's not fall for propaganda.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Isn't that hyperbole when hal has built lch , alh , htt40 by itself . Designed and build.

Yes it's work culture needs improvement but let's not fall for propaganda.

They had succeeded in many cases but they have also failed to prove worth in tons of programs too.
It's not out right propaganda to claim that HAL is incompetent when IAF itself says this - Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...ngth-iaf-to-govt/amp_articleshow/67665277.cms

Whats the production rate of Tejas? How Sp-21 flight was delayed because of strikes? And now we find some chaps claiming that HAL is working non stop day and night for Mk1A why all this drama? When they already delayed the program by wasting time in other issues. Lets hope they perform better in near future.
Truly saying i have no hope from HAL it's propaganda institution with making false claims of progress every single month.

And it's okay to claim that HAL build all this stuff ALH LCH and HTFE-25 but not to forget the level of technology transferring which hal have received over the years from different countries because of GOI. So this much is progress should be always expected.

 

[IndianHawk]

They had succeeded in many cases but they have also failed to prove worth in tons of programs too.
It's not out right propaganda to claim that HAL is incompetent when IAF itself says this - Slow HAL impacting India's air combat strength: IAF to Govt
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.econ...ngth-iaf-to-govt/amp_articleshow/67665277.cms

Whats the production rate of Tejas? How Sp-21 flight was delayed because of strikes? And now we find some chaps claiming that HAL is working non stop day and night for Mk1A why all this drama? When they already delayed the program by wasting time in other issues. Lets hope they perform better in near future.
Truly saying i have no hope from HAL it's propaganda institution with making false claims of progress every single month.

And it's okay to claim that HAL build all this stuff ALH LCH and HTFE-25 but not to forget the level of technology transferring which hal have received over the years from different countries because of GOI. So this much is progress should be always expected.

LCA production is slow because there are no orders further. Few days strike doesn't change much.
Mk1a order is still not signed. So I can't really blame hal for delay on that one.

Anyway time for excuses is over. Mwf and amca will be built by private sector hal will only be integrator. So that's good .

 

[abhay rajput]

LCA production is slow because there are no orders further. Few days strike doesn't change much.
Mk1a order is still not signed. So I can't really blame hal for delay on that one.

Anyway time for excuses is over. Mwf and amca will be built by private sector hal will only be integrator. So that's good .

Well when you increase the cost as much you like , then orders will not come ...

 

[Bleh]

Well when you increase the cost as much you like , then orders will not come ...

Now that's just low!

Mark1A cost between $40-$50 mil right now & FOC should have even lower... That's damn low cost for such meagre orders.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Now that's just low!

Mark1A cost between $40-$50 mil right now & FOC should have even lower... That's damn low cost for such meagre orders.

Facts still doesn't change because of HAL asking unacceptable cost in 2k16 that forced IAF from stopping further orders and engaged them into useless negotiations and from 2k16 those negotiations ended in 2020 Lengthy negotiations between the Defence Ministry's finance wing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) and government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has resulted in major relief. The deliberation has now resulted in the IAF sealing the deal for a price Rs 10,000 crore lesser than the earlier quoted price by HAL.

In November 2016, Defence Ministry's highest decision-making body, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had given a green signal for the purchase of 83 Tejas Mark-1A by the IAF at a cost of Rs 50,025 crore. News agency ANI quoting the sources in the defence ministry reported, "The draft contract of the deal has been readied by the HAL and the cost of the deal has now come down to around Rs 40,000 crore. This is Rs 10,000 crore less than the Acceptance of Necessity given by the Defence Ministry in 2016."

Interestingly, it's been more than a year since the two parties were negotiating over the price of LCA-Mk1A aircraft. The initial clearance for as many 83 of these aircraft was given by The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in November 2016. After the clearance, the IAF took another year to issue Request For Proposal (RFP) in December 2017. However, further negotiations were halted due to exorbitant price quoted by the HAL, which the IAF had argued was more than the price of a Su-30MKI. Former defence minister, Nirmala Sitharaman has formed a committee to negotiate the price. Now with all the hurdle are in the stage of being cleared, the production of the Tejas LCA is expected to pick up the pace.

 

[Bleh]

Facts still doesn't change because of HAL asking unacceptable cost in 2k16 that forced IAF from stopping further orders and engaged them into useless negotiations and from 2k16 those negotiations ended in 2020 Lengthy negotiations between the Defence Ministry's finance wing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) and government-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has resulted in major relief. The deliberation has now resulted in the IAF sealing the deal for a price Rs 10,000 crore lesser than the earlier quoted price by HAL.

In November 2016, Defence Ministry's highest decision-making body, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had given a green signal for the purchase of 83 Tejas Mark-1A by the IAF at a cost of Rs 50,025 crore. News agency ANI quoting the sources in the defence ministry reported, "The draft contract of the deal has been readied by the HAL and the cost of the deal has now come down to around Rs 40,000 crore. This is Rs 10,000 crore less than the Acceptance of Necessity given by the Defence Ministry in 2016."

Interestingly, it's been more than a year since the two parties were negotiating over the price of LCA-Mk1A aircraft. The initial clearance for as many 83 of these aircraft was given by The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in November 2016. After the clearance, the IAF took another year to issue Request For Proposal (RFP) in December 2017. However, further negotiations were halted due to exorbitant price quoted by the HAL, which the IAF had argued was more than the price of a Su-30MKI. Former defence minister, Nirmala Sitharaman has formed a committee to negotiate the price. Now with all the hurdle are in the stage of being cleared, the production of the Tejas LCA is expected to pick up the pace.

That's how negotiations work!

If Tejas series is expected to have all the semi-necessary tech & features from all upgraded jets of IAF combined price trends to increase... Look up Mirage-2000 & Mig-29 upgradation costs per unit for comparison.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

That's how negotiations work!

If Tejas Mark1A is expected to have all the semi-necessary tech & feature from all upgrades jets of IAF combined price trends to increase... Look up Mirage-2000 & Mig-29 upgradation costs per unit for comparison.

Okey.
Comparing foreign equipment with HAL is just a face saving measure because foreign companies most of the time milk india in update process because they knew that we don't have other options that's the reason why Mirage-2000 update was expensive and other updates will be expensive too.
But why we are developing indigenous equipments? To have ezz of updates and cheaper cost and what happened to union chaps which claim we work for the country and bla bla bla why they were trying to leach out IAF?
IAF from start said money is the issue watch RSTV tejas program they knew from day one that HAL is trying to leach a big extra amount.
( and a reminder that updating a old jet is most of the times cheaper than creating new one that's a reason why F-16 updates are so cheap)

 

[Chinmoy]

Most of the countries be it UK china turkey Europe countries etc don't fully manufacture jets but they create parts sub parts and unlike india parts created by them are not of poor quality.
Claiming that HAL didn't have enough TOT is totally laughable when that jet was 75% indigenous( more than our current tejas) In all, 95 MiG-23BNs were delivered between late 1980 and late 1982 and they served with No.10 ‘Winged Dagger’. No.220 ‘Desert Tigers’ and No.221 ‘Valiants’ Sqns between January 1981 and March 6, 2009 and having flown more than 154,000 hours), with each carrying a 3-tonne weapons payload. The IAF subsequently began procuring 165 MiG-27Ms (however, only 125 of which were licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd or HAL between 1986 and 1992) for equipping No.222 ‘Tiger Sharks; No.2 ‘Winged Arrows’, No.18 ‘Flying Bullets’, No.29 ‘Scorpions’, and No.22 ‘Swifts’ Sqns from October 1984 till May 2, 1992. Each MiG-27M could haul a 4-tonne weapons payload. Of these, 40 were subsequently upgraded to MiG-27UPG standard—the upgrade work involving only the mission avionics suite. Latter batches of HAL-built MiG-27Ms had 74% local industrial content.

If they had enough TOT to build it in past correctly then what happened afterwards?
And IAF reports clearly claimed that it's because HAL didn't followed OEM instructions that's why jets are crashing. And not to forget to generate capabilities government pays billions to other parties to transfer technology and slow companies like HAL cannot even tap that technology correctly. If it's clear that companies like HAL cannot even build the parts for which they have received TOT then their is no point in asking others to start a supply line in india.
Because of sub quality products and inferior work culture dassault totally rejected working with HAL.

We can always keep our eyes closed and keep blaming other parties no worries. And keep cheering HAL is best best but reality is totally opposite.

To start with, I am not praising HAL. They have serious QA & QC issue which no one could ignore.

But this would have to to be kept in mind that its not only the Tumansky, Kilmov or Saturn series engines which HAL overhaul. They also do over hauling of SNECMA and TURBOMECA. Now lets compare the engine failure rate of Migs and other aircraft in our inventory. Even if we consider Su and Migs, the numbers are mind boggling.

Now when talking of ToT and production, we conveniently blame that HAL is unworthy of any decent job and assume that if Pvt companies would take it up, they would do a much decent job. But we do forget or ignore the fact that private players do play a very important role in forming the supply chain of these products. HAL doesn't manufacture each and every sub-components of the engine. Around half of sub-components are outsourced from private companies. Only the core parts like blades, compensator, fuel pumps are manufactured by HAL. But for these too the raw materials were used to come from Russia. For example we are able to manufacture Titanium sheet of our own. But till recently, for Su, we had to import that from Russia. Thanks to the contract we signed. Now in metallurgy, one aspect which is very important is the environment in which a particular part is being cast or alloy is being formed. A part which has been cast in Russian environment would have a different life expectancy in Indian environmental condition. ToT doesn't cover all these.

2nd, the technicians who are being trained to work on that particular engine. The level of training imparted on them is also something to look out for. Why not the SNECMA or TURBOMECA is facing the same catastrophic failure like Turmansky or Kilmov? Its the same Quota chaap employees of HAL who are doing overhauling of these engines. Hell those quota chaap are responsible for building the Shakti engine too.

Now as I have said, QC & QA of HAL is pathetic at best. Some of the private companies who are vendors of HAL are also vendors of Rolls Royce and GE. They also do manufacture parts for these giants just like they do for HAL. But in case of HAL, their products doesn't undergo the same level of scrutiny like those of GE's or RR's. So HAL is at fault here.

Comparing the IAF modus operandi with those of other nation is like comparing football and marble. Apple and oranges are too negligible in this context. One aircraft of IAF does have 33% more sortie rate then a Chinese aircraft. It means the engine life of an IAF jet would be far less then a PLAAF one, just like its fuselage. In west the service life of a jet is 4000 to 6000 flight hours. Ours do clock 1/3rd of it in a year. So the stress on our non existent supply chain is too high then any other countries. To keep the flight economics in check, we have opted for a indigenous capability buildup which unfortunately didn't happened till now. Capability buildup doesn't come with ToT only. So blaming HAL squarely for all these is not right. They have their own faults, so thus others too.

 

[IndianHawk]

Well when you increase the cost as much you like , then orders will not come ...

While that's true. Yet even after price negotiation contract signing is being delayed.

Even for lca mk1 which was priced reasonably from the beginning only 40 jets were ordered such a small order made it difficult to invest in assembly line.

Hopefully everyone learned the lesson.

Let's see if hal can deliver mk1a at 24 per year rate. If they couldn't do that despite odrer of 123 jets then they would be truly guilty of incompetence.

 

[no smoking]

One aircraft of IAF does have 33% more sortie rate then a Chinese aircraft.

Can you provide any link to support that?

It means the engine life oftan IAF jet would be far less then a PLAAF one, just like its fuselage. In west the service life of a jet is 4000 to 6000 flight hours. Ours do clock 1/3rd of it in a year.

That is impossible that any India fighter jet flies over 1300 hours a year. Generally one pilot can sustain around 200 hours fly training a year without damaging his health. So there is no way a fighter jet will fly that many hours per year unless it is shared by over 6 pilots.

If IAF fly her jets so frequently, then over 2/3 of her fleet should have to retire long time ago. The fact that they are still flying most of the Su-30s tells us that they are training at the same level as others.

 

[Pret]

TDV is a missile tracking ship- confirmed

With Vikrant getting all the attention, the TDV was conveniently ignored. I received these pics today and I was surprised to see a weird structure (pointed by a red arrow) on the TDV. It's clearly a support structure of a radar array i.e. this is where the antenna of radar goes. It's significantly larger than the two similar structures present on the Vikrant, also visible in both pictures. While it's clear that it's a radar ship, the presence of A-frame indicates that this ship could be stationed downrange to assist debris recovery. Dr.Y.Srinivasa Rao is the project director of 'Ship No. 20', he is scientist-G at Research Centre Immarath, DRDO, Hyderabad. He is also associated with Program AD (PGAD) i.e. Indian BMD.
https://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/07/technology-demonstration-vessel-or-atv.html

 

[porky_kicker]

TDV is a missile tracking ship- confirmed

With Vikrant getting all the attention, the TDV was conveniently ignored. I received these pics today and I was surprised to see a weird structure (pointed by a red arrow) on the TDV. It's clearly a support structure of a radar array i.e. this is where the antenna of radar goes. It's significantly larger than the two similar structures present on the Vikrant, also visible in both pictures. While it's clear that it's a radar ship, the presence of A-frame indicates that this ship could be stationed downrange to assist debris recovery. Dr.Y.Srinivasa Rao is the project director of 'Ship No. 20', he is scientist-G at Research Centre Immarath, DRDO, Hyderabad. He is also associated with Program AD (PGAD) i.e. Indian BMD.
https://mark20x.blogspot.com/2018/07/technology-demonstration-vessel-or-atv.html

Nice find

I suspect it is MFSTAR radar minus the lower mast section. Ground based MFSTAR already being used to track rockets and missiles under test. Eg pinaka

The purpose of project 20 ship as i stated previously is to track the splash points of terminally guided missiles and projectiles / terminal interception of airborne targets / in-flight maneuvering / sea skimming / low level / medium level / high level terminal maneuvering of missiles be it high subsonic / supersonic / Hypersonic systems at relatively close ranges.

 

[porky_kicker]

Months ago i posted

Let me share a info about which you will be hearing for the first time most probably.

Everybody knows about LRTR ( long range tracking radar )

I have come to know that a new variant / version of LRTR codenamed as " LRTR-3 " has been in use since sometime.

And AFAIK this very same LRTR-3 was used in the ASAT test. It's got phenomenal range and resolution.

Later I will post more info if possible

Now info on Very Long Range Tracking Radar (VLRTR) system released

 

[Prashant12]

Smart bombs, futuristic combat vehicle in pipeline: OFB head


NAGPUR: Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) is planning to introduce `smart bombs' and would soon roll out a "Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle" made for the Indian Army, a top official said here on Saturday.

The first-ever conference of employees of 41 ordnance factories in the country is being held at the National Academy for Defence Production at Ambajhari near here.

Director General Ordnance Factories and Chairman Ordnance Factories Board Hari Mohan told reporters that the conference would focus on "themes important for the transformation of ordnance factories into modern and business-oriented organisations".

Ordnance factories were also planning to manufacture `smart bombs' or guided artillery ammunition rounds of 81mm, 51mm, 120mm and 130mm caliber, he informed.

A "Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle" for the Indian Army was also in the works, he added.

"OFB started manufacturing Armoured Personal Carriers for the army from 1983-84. But now the OFB has developed its own Futuristic Infantry Combat (FIC) Vehicle for the army," he said.

"It is almost 85 percent ready. In coming months the FIC will be fully ready and exhibited in the next Defence exhibition," Mohan added.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...in-pipeline-ofb-head/articleshow/73205235.cms

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Next commiii agenda...................