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Bhadra

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Dhanush is the pet project of ofb. The initial order for 114 guns is for 45 calibre version of .Dhanush. I think the entire inventory of Bofors guns of 414 will be replaced by Dhanush. As such the next batch of order of 300+ guns will be 52 calibre version which is already developed by ofb.
Regarding atags its towed version has a requirement of 1600-1700 which will be divided into orders for Bharat forge and Tata.
I think drdo is also trying to revive the Bhim sph project based on Arjun chassis and atags gun will supplement the 100 k9 vajra .
you are correct.

After initial 144 How the subsequent orders are likely to be for 52 cal. The modernisation plan of Indian Army is for standardisation for 52 caliber.

144 Dhanush will barely equip six artillery regiments most probably for mountains.

DRDO has successfully made 52 caliber ATAGS- converting Dhanus into 52 caliber should not be any problem.
Orders for how more than 114 has not been given probably to bring in subsequent upgradation and establish the production capacity of Dhanus. - Kanpur, Jabalpur and Medak will have to pull up their socks.

Tracked howitzers are not likely to go beyond 100. Tracked howitzer has very less flexibility for being shifted from one sector to another. They are expensive cost wise and maintenance wise. Besides, so many numbers of truck mounted guns will easily fill the gap. Bhim unlikely to be revived.
 

Bhadra

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First of all Dhanush order is not small. It is three year production at the designated agency. More orders will be released well before this one is delivered.

Other guns are in the pipeline too and the plan is to complete induction of 3000 guns in ten years.
OFB has been given an order which they will barely be able to deliver in two years (this year not included). Why should they demand that they be given orders for another 4 years.

What is the guarantee steel prices will not drop or forging will not become less expensive or the labour cost will not stabilize. So what is this "economy of Scale" hungama?

one of the very optimistic report says -

All 114 guns are expected to be delivered within four years. The OFB has already undertaken capacity augmentation to manufacture over 400 barrels and 250 ordnances for large calibre weapon systems. “The OFB is confident of producing 8-10 guns a month within two to three years,” an OFB official stated.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ome-made-dhanush-howitzer/article26769308.ece
 

Armand2REP

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OFB has been given an order which they will barely be able to deliver in two years (this year not included). Why should they demand that they be given orders for another 4 years.

What is the guarantee steel prices will not drop or forging will not become less expensive or the labour cost will not stabilize. So what is this "economy of Scale" hungama?

one of the very optimistic report says -

All 114 guns are expected to be delivered within four years. The OFB has already undertaken capacity augmentation to manufacture over 400 barrels and 250 ordnances for large calibre weapon systems. “The OFB is confident of producing 8-10 guns a month within two to three years,” an OFB official stated.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...ome-made-dhanush-howitzer/article26769308.ece
It sounds like a never ending loop of failure. If you never give your indigenous suppliers an order large enough to make economies of scale then how do you ever expect them to match the price of Israel? Don't forget that Israel is not playing fair, they are a US welfare state in military aid that subsidizes their defence industry. Never have I seen a top military exporter needing military aid before, but somehow Israel suckers them into paying.

In the case of France, we have an organisation called the DGA which runs the entire process of developing and procuring arms across the entire industrial chain. We don't have open tenders, it is France first, if the project is not meeting economies of scale we tender it through the European Defence Agency and come up with cooperative projects making sure France gets its piece of the pie and exporting equal share to the others. Only if we are deficient in a product do we buy from America which is very rare. 92% of our capital allocation is spent in France.

Just because someone makes it slightly cheaper would never entice us to give up our sovereignty. You have to buy enough of them yourself if you are ever going to be competitive for export. No other country but Israel has the US to subsidize their defence industry.
 

Bhadra

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It sounds like a never ending loop of failure. If you never give your indigenous suppliers an order large enough to make economies of scale then how do you ever expect them to match the price of Israel? Don't forget that Israel is not playing fair, they are a US welfare state in military aid that subsidizes their defence industry. Never have I seen a top military exporter needing military aid before, but somehow Israel suckers them into paying.
Why bad mouth Isreal because they are giving India good mal for cheaper prices. Compete or get out.

"Economy of Scale" is abused and misunderstood the buzz word around. It is chanted like a "Mantra" It has two aspects - Internal and External. Large production (based on large order) is one of many parts of External aspect of Economy of Scale.

OFB should / can obtain reduction in cost of Dhanus by other measures that form part of Internal measures such as specialization of labor, more integrated technology, modern kitting and tooling, boost production volumes. lower cost of capital ( which OFB does not have to care for) spreading internal function costs, good accounting, information technology, operational efficiencies and synergies. Mergerr and acquisitions between OFBs can also give cost reduction, boost production and reduce costs.

Let OFB first do it and transform themselves into efficient production units rather than asking Army to fund their inefficiency and corrupt practices.


In the case of France, we have an organisation called the DGA which runs the entire process of developing and procuring arms across the entire industrial chain. We don't have open tenders, it is France first, if the project is not meeting economies of scale we tender it through the European Defence Agency and come up with cooperative projects making sure France gets its piece of the pie and exporting equal share to the others. Only if we are deficient in a product do we buy from America which is very rare. 92% of our capital allocation is spent in France.
Out of Topic

Just because someone makes it slightly cheaper would never entice us to give up our sovereignty. You have to buy enough of them yourself if you are ever going to be competitive for export. No other country but Israel has the US to subsidize their defence industry.
Maintaining inefficient and incapable OFB is not "Sovereignty". Better not use such big words to promote institutions which are denting sovereignty and wish to survive like parasites on Armed Forces.

There are procedures and laid down processes by which the DAC decides on orders and not Army. Order has to placed on OFB by MoD - then why foul mouth Army over ten pages discussion. If one goes strictly by L1 norms, no orders should have been placed on OFB.

Regarding orders for 400 more guns - I think that has to be as per plan. So far towed howitzers are concerned - Indian Army artillery has around 400 Bofors and about 300 M46 upgunned to 155mm. Those are to be replaced or kept or transferred is a big factor. On supply of 114 Dhanus India will be holding more than 800 towed 155 guns/ howitzers.

Future plans for Dhanus will depend on that. Moreover, ATAGS, Vajra, ATHOS etc are yet to be delivered. Let Indian Army get adequate exposure to all systems and then place orders according for second trench. Why should Army commit themselves for 5000 guns by types and manufacturer. It is not that Israelis have got orders for 2000 guns. They have also got similar orders. your "Economy of Scale" applies in all cases.

This Shyapa and Hangama is useless smacking of trade unionism.
 

DivineHeretic

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Future plans for Dhanus will depend on that. Moreover, ATAGS, Vajra, ATHOS etc are yet to be delivered. Let Indian Army get adequate exposure to all systems and then place orders according for second trench. Why should Army commit themselves for 5000 guns by types and manufacturer. It is not that Israelis have got orders for 2000 guns. They have also got similar orders. your "Economy of Scale" applies in all cases.
I'll speak on behalf of Indian Private sector firms only and only on the topic of why larger orders are necessary and beneficial for private players, and for the army.

Any private firm sizes its production capacity according to expected demand and intensity of demand for its goods. This is particularly true for industries with high capex and high human resources demands. By ordering in small batches, the IA creates uncertainty regarding scale of total orders. The firms react by developing limited capacity with limited rate of production to limit exposure in case expected orders are not forthcoming. This drives up cost for IA, as cost of CAPEX must be amortized over fewer production numbers, and also limits the rate of supply.

Instead if the IA had put forward a firm commitment for a larger batch, the firms can put down the capex for the fixed assets (5-6 axes machining and forging tools, Trained personnel etc) for a larger and faster production plan and deliver end product at lower costs as now fixed costs are amortized over larger batch. Both sides gain, army with cheaper guns at faster rates, firms with predictability of demand.

It might appear academic, but the difference in costs could be as much as 30-50%. This is one of the reasons why Indian products are more expensive than foreign produced goods.

Fact is, because of the uncertainty/unpredictability regarding IA's orders, a large number of Indian firms with technical knowhow to develop and produce military goods simply refuse to enter into the bidding process. Even Tonbo Imaging initially only supplied outside India (to US SOCOM), MKU delivered products only outside India, because domestic orders were too uncertain to create a sustainable business model.

Because of IA and MoDs fickleness and whimsical procurement procedure, Indian firms save for the very largest firms avoid entering defence market, and if they do, their main target consumer is abroad (at least initially).
 

Bhadra

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I'll speak on behalf of Indian Private sector firms only and only on the topic of why larger orders are necessary and beneficial for private players, and for the army.

Any private firm sizes its production capacity according to expected demand and intensity of demand for its goods. This is particularly true for industries with high capex and high human resources demands. By ordering in small batches, the IA creates uncertainty regarding scale of total orders. The firms react by developing limited capacity with limited rate of production to limit exposure in case expected orders are not forthcoming. This drives up cost for IA, as cost of CAPEX must be amortized over fewer production numbers, and also limits the rate of supply.

Instead if the IA had put forward a firm commitment for a larger batch, the firms can put down the capex for the fixed assets (5-6 axes machining and forging tools, Trained personnel etc) for a larger and faster production plan and deliver end product at lower costs as now fixed costs are amortized over larger batch. Both sides gain, army with cheaper guns at faster rates, firms with predictability of demand.

It might appear academic, but the difference in costs could be as much as 30-50%. This is one of the reasons why Indian products are more expensive than foreign produced goods.

Fact is, because of the uncertainty/unpredictability regarding IA's orders, a large number of Indian firms with technical knowhow to develop and produce military goods simply refuse to enter into the bidding process. Even Tonbo Imaging initially only supplied outside India (to US SOCOM), MKU delivered products only outside India, because domestic orders were too uncertain to create a sustainable business model.

Because of IA and MoDs fickleness and whimsical procurement procedure, Indian firms save for the very largest firms avoid entering defence market, and if they do, their main target consumer is abroad (at least initially).
Sir,
Why are you mentioning IA every time and everywhere.

Orders are placed as per procedures laid down by CAG / MoD Finance. Sanctions are the largest part of procedures. In 99 per cent cases MoD is the Sanctioning authority and the CFA. Orders are placed by the CFA. In case of MoD it is DAC.

Proposals are placed as per "sanctioned" budgets.as approved by MoD and Min of Finance. If money available in a year is for ten guns, Army can not propose to buy 100 guns.

Economy of scale is the best in Indian orders. Please tell me which country / Army is the world places orders for about 2000 guns ? Which Army plans to acquire 124 fourth generation aircrafts? Which Army places orders for 78000 Rifles ? 4000 missile launchers and 70000 missiles. BEA system has an order of more than 100 ULH. Has that made the guns cheaper ? They still will supply those over next five years as per their production capacity. F-16 is closing down but will survive if India places orders for about 100 or more F-16. Will that make F-16 at quarter of the current price. Economy of scale is not so divine. It is not Colgate. We are talking about 155/52mm howitzers.
OFB had been making / upgunning 300 M-46 to 155mm caliber. They have been maintaining and servicing more than 400 Bofors 155mm guns. More than half of know-how and infrastructure is in place. Still they can not compete> They are not L1. Why should they get orders ?

You mentioned Tonbo. How much orders they get at one trench from a single source. What about Tonbo's efforts to create and sustain demands for their products? They remain ahead in technology loop in quality of products and in marketing?

Private firms remain ahead of the demand cycles, create demand for their product, service demand well and remain in feedback loop. We do not expect that from DRDO / OFB.

US Armed Forces also do not place orders for 350 F-35. They also buy it in 24, 30, 16 trenches. In technology products one can not and should not place large orders. It is as per suppliers capability and capacity, technology and ability to move up the technology ladder.

For any supplier including DRDO / OFB to be supplier for Indian Armed Forces is a dream come true. Such large orders one does not get anywhere in the world.

Finally, I reiterate Indian Army or Services only place their requirements, lay down parameters, carry out the trail and accept the product. They are no where is allotment of money, sanctioning the money and placing orders. That is done by MoD.

Placing order means availability of money, legal commitments, binding terms and conditions, paying advances, placing guarantees and getting stuck. India does not have a budget to place an order of 500 guns on OFB in one go nor is the Indian Army stupid enough to say they will procure only towed guns, nothing of trcked guns, nothing of mountain guns to keep OFB happy.

It is plain, stupid and simple.
 

Armand2REP

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Why bad mouth Isreal because they are giving India good mal for cheaper prices. Compete or get out.
The reality is that Israel's cheap prices are preventing your industry from getting the orders they need to be successful to produce with technology you are paying DRDO to develop. If you always intended to buy from abroad then why are you wasting billions having your research develop it?

"Economy of Scale" is abused and misunderstood the buzz word around. It is chanted like a "Mantra" It has two aspects - Internal and External. Large production (based on large order) is one of many parts of External aspect of Economy of Scale.
Economies of scale isn't a buzz word, it is a microeconomic fact of life. It is like the Law of Gravity, what goes up must come down. What isn't ordered in big enough quantity is doomed to fail. You talk about externals, well what about exports? Israel sets up production in India and a 3rd party wants to buy, but they don't want Athos made from India, they want to make it themselves making Indian participation redundant. Why, because you don't own the IP. If you export ATAGs, all of that goes back into your MIC, not back to Israel. That is the difference between a top tier supplier and middle man. India wants to be the top tier.

OFB should / can obtain reduction in cost of Dhanus by other measures that form part of Internal measures such as specialization of labor, more integrated technology, modern kitting and tooling, boost production volumes. lower cost of capital ( which OFB does not have to care for) spreading internal function costs, good accounting, information technology, operational efficiencies and synergies. Mergerr and acquisitions between OFBs can also give cost reduction, boost production and reduce costs.

Let OFB first do it and transform themselves into efficient production units rather than asking Army to fund their inefficiency and corrupt practices.
Who says OFB has to be the producer? There are a whole host of companies, like the ones Israel partners with that can make Danush or ATAGs cheaper than OFB. If they have to part it out to private industry then so be it, but let it be an indigenous product that Indians developed.

Out of Topic
If you ever want to reach 92% indigenous production and the 3rd largest arms exporter in the world, you might want to look at what we are doing.

Maintaining inefficient and incapable OFB is not "Sovereignty". Better not use such big words to promote institutions which are denting sovereignty and wish to survive like parasites on Armed Forces.

There are procedures and laid down processes by which the DAC decides on orders and not Army. Order has to placed on OFB by MoD - then why foul mouth Army over ten pages discussion. If one goes strictly by L1 norms, no orders should have been placed on OFB.
I am not here to defend or protect OFB, only that the efforts of indigenous R&D are not thrown away. If that technology needs to be tendered to private players then do it and make the order big enough for them to make a profit. That is how it is done in France, not wasting the billions of R&D just to buy someone elses product.

Regarding orders for 400 more guns - I think that has to be as per plan. So far towed howitzers are concerned - Indian Army artillery has around 400 Bofors and about 300 M46 upgunned to 155mm. Those are to be replaced or kept or transferred is a big factor. On supply of 114 Dhanus India will be holding more than 800 towed 155 guns/ howitzers.
What sense does it make to buy four different systems to fill the same general requirement? Now you are making the supply and logistics more difficult for the Army which has very real ramifications in combat. Do you know why the US military is most powerful on the planet? It isn't about tech, it isn't about numbers, it is about logistics... they keep their equipment in the fight because they use commonality. That is what makes them powerful.

Future plans for Dhanus will depend on that. Moreover, ATAGS, Vajra, ATHOS etc are yet to be delivered. Let Indian Army get adequate exposure to all systems and then place orders according for second trench. Why should Army commit themselves for 5000 guns by types and manufacturer. It is not that Israelis have got orders for 2000 guns. They have also got similar orders. your "Economy of Scale" applies in all cases.
It is a towed derivative of their ATMOS 2000 which has been ordered by the IDF and several countries around the world. That is how they made their economies of scale. They use commonality in their products which makes spinoffs cheaper to develop and produce. If you do not allow India to form its own core technologies to achieve a commonality, you will always be in your current predicament.

This Shyapa and Hangama is useless smacking of trade unionism.
You want to make fun of sovereignty but in reality, it is the only reason the armed forces exists. If you want to throw up your hands and quit then why don't you get on your knees and crawl over to Uncle Sam to protect you. That is really what the British are doing, they are devolving their sovereignty to become Uncle Sam's bitch.
 

Immortal

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Why do you need it? What is the purpose?
Just wanted to count as I believe their induction, the first in over two decade, will bring about a huge change..want to know how many will be there by June end as hostilities might increase after election results
 

Craigs

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Sir,
Why are you mentioning IA every time and everywhere.

Orders are placed as per procedures laid down by CAG / MoD Finance. Sanctions are the largest part of procedures. In 99 per cent cases MoD is the Sanctioning authority and the CFA. Orders are placed by the CFA. In case of MoD it is DAC.

Proposals are placed as per "sanctioned" budgets.as approved by MoD and Min of Finance. If money available in a year is for ten guns, Army can not propose to buy 100 guns.

Economy of scale is the best in Indian orders. Please tell me which country / Army is the world places orders for about 2000 guns ? Which Army plans to acquire 124 fourth generation aircrafts? Which Army places orders for 78000 Rifles ? 4000 missile launchers and 70000 missiles. BEA system has an order of more than 100 ULH. Has that made the guns cheaper ? They still will supply those over next five years as per their production capacity. F-16 is closing down but will survive if India places orders for about 100 or more F-16. Will that make F-16 at quarter of the current price. Economy of scale is not so divine. It is not Colgate. We are talking about 155/52mm howitzers.
OFB had been making / upgunning 300 M-46 to 155mm caliber. They have been maintaining and servicing more than 400 Bofors 155mm guns. More than half of know-how and infrastructure is in place. Still they can not compete> They are not L1. Why should they get orders ?

You mentioned Tonbo. How much orders they get at one trench from a single source. What about Tonbo's efforts to create and sustain demands for their products? They remain ahead in technology loop in quality of products and in marketing?

Private firms remain ahead of the demand cycles, create demand for their product, service demand well and remain in feedback loop. We do not expect that from DRDO / OFB.

US Armed Forces also do not place orders for 350 F-35. They also buy it in 24, 30, 16 trenches. In technology products one can not and should not place large orders. It is as per suppliers capability and capacity, technology and ability to move up the technology ladder.

For any supplier including DRDO / OFB to be supplier for Indian Armed Forces is a dream come true. Such large orders one does not get anywhere in the world.

Finally, I reiterate Indian Army or Services only place their requirements, lay down parameters, carry out the trail and accept the product. They are no where is allotment of money, sanctioning the money and placing orders. That is done by MoD.

Placing order means availability of money, legal commitments, binding terms and conditions, paying advances, placing guarantees and getting stuck. India does not have a budget to place an order of 500 guns on OFB in one go nor is the Indian Army stupid enough to say they will procure only towed guns, nothing of trcked guns, nothing of mountain guns to keep OFB happy.

It is plain, stupid and simple.
Will India place orders for these foreign wares if the parent country's armed force does not use it in quantity? Is it sensible to do so?


Oooops I answered my own question (**** T-90).

What a mess? - Ghar ki murghi dal barabar. I don't blame the Imported Armed Forces alone - equal blame to be proportioned to all govt organs.

Wonder why we don't re-invite the East India Company and sign the Subsidiary Alliance once again. Nehru was already on this path (India does not need an Army, police force is enough).
 

garg_bharat

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I think we are again going in a totally unnecessary and counter-productive discussion.

Please stop this imported vs local nonsense.

There is already a delineation between DRDO and Forces. Only proven products are to be offered to Forces. Development cycle is not going to affect forces. So if Army needs a product X today; and it is in R&D stage with DRDO; DRDO product will NOT be considered.

ATAGS is not yet ready so it cannot be considered for procurement.
The guns which are ready have been cleared for production and induction. It is very simple.
 

garg_bharat

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Army prefers T-90 so it is cleared. Army's logic is logistics as lighter tank is easier to move. And other factors like recovery vehicles.

The infantry equipment demanded by Army is being bought. ATGMs is not an issue as it is made out to be. The "emergency" purchase is not a big deal. Such things happen when threat of war is imminent.
 

garg_bharat

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Just wanted to count as I believe their induction, the first in over two decade, will bring about a huge change..want to know how many will be there by June end as hostilities might increase after election results
First of all there is no such indication that "hostilities will increase at June end". In fact chance of war in summer and monsoon is very low.

Second is production capacity of the agency designated. A certain number is assigned to it keeping in mind all the factors. The orders to OFB are easy to give as procedure is very simple. Once Army receives a certain quantity, more orders can be given.
 

Bleh

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Army prefers T-90 so it is cleared. Army's logic is logistics as lighter tank is easier to move. And other factors like recovery vehicles.
Blatant disinformation... T-90MS recently cleared are 50+ton each. No existing infrastructure can handle those.

Just like Arjun they'll need total infra overhaul, but unlike Arjun their new tech (engine, hardware etc.) aren't tested & proven in Indian conditions, just like the last time.

BOTH Indian T-90S broke down in the middle of international Tank biathlon. If that can happen, nobody should be surprised if they give out en masse during a war & Paki tanks simply roll in past them without any resistance!!!
 
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AUSTERLITZ

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Thing is arjun sadly doesnt have firepower to defeat chinese tanks because it has rifled gun and 500 mm apfsds round which cant penetrate armour of type 96 or type 99.We need t90ms in ladakh and sikkim to counter chinese armour with the svinets 1 round with 750 mm pen.

Army wants a tank that is maximum 55-57 tonnes in weight ideally around 50 tns .This has been clearly stated as requirement for FRCV project.Arjun is 68 tonnes.

Arjuns protection is good but turret design has flaws which leaves big exposed spaces for imager on front turret.

It is also costlier than T90 and more maintainence intensive.

T90 is overall a very good tank.Its affordable, in correct weight range,shares commonality of parts and training with the enormous T72 fleet,less manpower intensive due to 3 man crew and is battle proven.In syria export model syrian army T90 tank withstood direct hit from american TOW 2.And it can fire a canon launched missile .

Arjun was a modest success.Its main legacy will be in helping us learn technologies that will go into the FRCV which will be true indigenous tank.Mistakes in turret design..excess weight and rifle gun choice will be rectified and we will build a new family f weapons based on frcv.
 

Bhadra

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Friends,

Please do not derail the thread by inserting Arjun into it. Seperate thread exist for Arjun Vs T-90.
Unless it being deliberately being done

********************************************************
Coming back to Dhanus...

Orders for further 400 now... no way.
OFB has a perpetual and permanent QC (Quality Control) issue.
Let them give the first 114 Dhanus to the Army. Army will use them and fire from those on LC - 60 rounds per hour and 24 X 7 and for two months.

Then let Army see which leg of Dhanus flies in which direction, how many barrels will burst, how many recoil springs will fly two km away and how many wheels will come off while firing.

Let the Army be assured that it is not an INSAS, ARJUN or NAG story. DRDO / OFB are famous for tom toming their mal which turns out to be dud.

So first make 114. Let those carry out live trials and prove their mettle. Then OFB will get orders - in trenches. Since OFB is incapable of managing cost and competition, that will be taken care of by MoD for the sake of "Indigenisation" and "Sovereignty".

We all know how much "sovereignty" their INSAS and ARJUN has generated. Especially that INSAS which generated indian " Sovereignty" in Bhutan, Nepal, bangladesh and Sri Lanka. All kamchor politicians and commission agents.

************************************
******** Men dam nahin, Ham kissi se Kam Nahin
Patta Nahin Firing Tables hain bhi ya Nahin ??
 
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