DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

raju1982

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2023
Messages
956
Likes
4,399
Country flag
How isn't it transferred to worthless failure of a AdE lab instead of AdA. They failed in tapas, a piston engine one, iam not confident they would succeed. I read somewhere that the 1 ton swift fasttracked because AdA made it but now it is in AdE, i fail to see why ghatak is in better position.
MoD changed ADE management few years back. Brought the project lead of Astra AAM as Director, hope he can change the work culture there as ADE has great facilities and scientists already.

MoD must implement KVR panel ASAP.
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
32,150
Likes
149,155
Country flag
Western countries never faced Pakistan or China like adversaries since Korean war. Still they are preparing and well ahead of others in miltech.
so are GoI and it's armed forces as per their own threat perceptions and resource availability. hence they are investing in multiple capabilities simultaneously, not limited to a few.

this is a academic paper on JSF programme from 97, notice how many times affordability is mentioned. also notice their original plans for JSF to complement with F-22. in 2024 neither affordability nor F-22 holds true anymore, this is to say battle landscape itself has changed since they started working on this.

https://secwww.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/content/techdigest/pdf/V18-N01/18-01-Steidle.pdf

my limited point being, a few pieces of tech do not "win the war", it's all available resources used in tandem that win the war. ultimately what is defining feature of a proper war, to send as much munitions for effect to barbad the other side aided by plethora of munitions delivery mechanisms , defend own side against incoming munitions. if India does go into a war, we might be looking at tens of thousands of tonnes of warheads that will be sent to the other side. out of this tens of thousands of tonnes of warheads, how much percentage will AMCA/Ghatak/FUFA send across? a small percentage in comparison, for specific tactical mission profiles. these tech have their role to play, but entire burden of a win is not on them.

the reason i am making the effort to emphasise on this, is because i have the same issue with hype around brahmos especially the land attack versions.

note: leaving out many caveats like nukes, defensive doctrine, counter tech etc. to keep the scope of convo narrow and limited.
 
Last edited:

raju1982

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2023
Messages
956
Likes
4,399
Country flag
so are GoI and it's armed forces as per their own threat perceptions and resource availability. hence they are investing in multiple capabilities simultaneously, not limited to a few.

this is a academic paper on JSF programme from 97, notice how many times affordability is mentioned. also notice their original plans for JSF to complement with F-22. in 2024 neither affordability nor F-22 holds true anymore, this is to say battle landscape itself has changed since they started working on this.

https://secwww.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/content/techdigest/pdf/V18-N01/18-01-Steidle.pdf

my limited point being, a few pieces of tech do not "win the war", it's all available resources used in tandem that win the war. ultimately what is defining feature of a proper war, to send as much munitions for effect to barbad the other side aided by plethora of munitions delivery mechanisms , defend own side against incoming munitions. if India does go into a war, we might be looking at tens of thousands of tonnes of warheads that will be sent to the other side. out of this tens of thousands of tonnes of warheads, how much percentage will AMCA/Ghatak/FUFA send across? a small percentage in comparison, for specific tactical mission profiles. these tech have their role to play, but entire burden of a win is not on them.

the reason i am making the effort to emphasise on this, is because i have the same issue with hype around brahmos especially the land attack versions.

note: leaving out many caveats like nukes, defensive doctrine, counter tech etc. to keep the scope of convo narrow and limited.
Will write detailed reply later but one thing from your first sentence, GoI is not preparing according the threat perception for sure. Pls look at AWACS in Soith Asia for example. It all started with India builing Flying Chapati then Phalvon deal. Now please look at our western and northern borders, our enemies are better equipped in that regard. Pakistan with their tiny economy can compete with India well in this field.
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
32,150
Likes
149,155
Country flag
Will write detailed reply later but one thing from your first sentence, GoI is not preparing according the threat perception for sure. Pls look at AWACS in Soith Asia for example. It all started with India builing Flying Chapati then Phalvon deal. Now please look at our western and northern borders, our enemies are better equipped in that regard. Pakistan with their tiny economy can compete with India well in this field.
that pipeline issue is always going to be there, no matter how long the wish list is, the number of procurement contracts that can be taken up is limited by capex budget. similar discussions happens on every major procurement contract before it gets signed, once it gets signed people calm down and move on to their next favourite item. it's a cycle on this forum.

you are focussing on the biggies, go back a few years and look up the amount of discussions that used to happen even at component level like seekers, aesa TRM etc etc. ultimately things happened, and folks calmed down.

meanwhile the usual rhetoric, it's gormint's fault, it's DRDO's fault, DRDO, gormint, forces do not know how to do their job blah blah.. it's all routine mate.. :yo:
 
Last edited:

slayingheaven

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2023
Messages
183
Likes
696
Country flag
so are GoI and it's armed forces as per their own threat perceptions and resource availability. hence they are investing in multiple capabilities simultaneously, not limited to a few.

this is a academic paper on JSF programme from 97, notice how many times affordability is mentioned. also notice their original plans for JSF to complement with F-22. in 2024 neither affordability nor F-22 holds true anymore, this is to say battle landscape itself has changed since they started working on this.

https://secwww.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/content/techdigest/pdf/V18-N01/18-01-Steidle.pdf

my limited point being, a few pieces of tech do not "win the war", it's all available resources used in tandem that win the war. ultimately what is defining feature of a proper war, to send as much munitions for effect to barbad the other side aided by plethora of munitions delivery mechanisms , defend own side against incoming munitions. if India does go into a war, we might be looking at tens of thousands of tonnes of warheads that will be sent to the other side. out of this tens of thousands of tonnes of warheads, how much percentage will AMCA/Ghatak/FUFA send across? a small percentage in comparison, for specific tactical mission profiles. these tech have their role to play, but entire burden of a win is not on them.

the reason i am making the effort to emphasise on this, is because i have the same issue with hype around brahmos especially the land attack versions.

note: leaving out many caveats like nukes, defensive doctrine, counter tech etc. to keep the scope of convo narrow and limited.
The USAF is transforming itself since majorly the American way of warfare is primarily Airforce-Centric, unlike the gutter mess of USArmy and USNavy ,the USAF seemed to be filled with highly talented people. Unlike the previous strategy of acquisition of platforms, for the past 10 years they seem to have focused on strengthening "Tools". Like there is a saying sharpening of axe doesn't delay wood cutting. They are focusing aggressively on tools such as manufacturing, digital design for their future "digital Millenium Series" where they thought that for "Air dominance" of future, the previous strategy of procuring 1000s of jets is useless where they would be outdated very fast due to China which is more competent that Soviet. They are thinking that to maintain permanent "Air dominance" which is the single most advantage a force can gain, the design-prototyping-production has to be streamlined and completed as fast as possible, but for that we need the tools hence they focused on that first. As the result of that, the Boeing-Saab Redhawk trainer along with the recently unveiled Generaldynamics-ASI XQ-67 drone are completed on RECORd time. What's your opinion on this?, because if we look at the plan of USAF they seem to frame their CCA on a common chassis with single engine. The chassis can have single production line while later the aerostructures can be added for various configurations like cranked kite or pure flying wing or fighter jet esque shape etc. It reduces logistics and improves production numbers. How about HTFE-25 a 25kN engine which they have been dabbling on for 10 years, if such attains clearance, a common chassis can be build so that we can get a flying wing shape drone optimized for air-to-ground while a fighter jet esque shape optimized for air-to-air. I hope they complete the Ghatak as soon as possible otherwise we will be taken out by hordes of Chinese loyal wingmans.
 

raju1982

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2023
Messages
956
Likes
4,399
Country flag
that pipeline issue is always going to be there, no matter how long the wish list is, the number of procurement contracts that can be taken up is limited by capex budget. similar discussions happens on every major procurement contract before it gets signed, once it gets signed people calm down and move on to their next favourite item. it's a cycle on this forum.

you are focussing on the biggies, go back a few years and look up the amount of discussions that used to happen even at component level like seekers, aesa TRM etc etc. ultimately things happened, and folks calmed down.

meanwhile the usual rhetoric, it's gormint's fault, it's DRDO's fault, DRDO, gormint, forces do not know how to do their job blah blah.. it's all routine mate.. :yo:
component level problems for example seekers, TRMs have been (more or less) in the last decade. we built the tech and supplychain in India but when i hear about L&T HPR is basically from Elbit or its taking decades to induct more AWACS than where is the fault line? In our process.

I am saying we need to fix that. Else how much tech we develop its not going to be in the hands of our soldiers on time.

as @slayingheaven said platform like Ghatak is need of the hour else Abhinandan version 2.0 is waiting like a time bomb. thanks.
 

omaebakabaka

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2020
Messages
4,945
Likes
13,835
The USAF is transforming itself since majorly the American way of warfare is primarily Airforce-Centric, unlike the gutter mess of USArmy and USNavy ,the USAF seemed to be filled with highly talented people. Unlike the previous strategy of acquisition of platforms, for the past 10 years they seem to have focused on strengthening "Tools". Like there is a saying sharpening of axe doesn't delay wood cutting. They are focusing aggressively on tools such as manufacturing, digital design for their future "digital Millenium Series" where they thought that for "Air dominance" of future, the previous strategy of procuring 1000s of jets is useless where they would be outdated very fast due to China which is more competent that Soviet. They are thinking that to maintain permanent "Air dominance" which is the single most advantage a force can gain, the design-prototyping-production has to be streamlined and completed as fast as possible, but for that we need the tools hence they focused on that first. As the result of that, the Boeing-Saab Redhawk trainer along with the recently unveiled Generaldynamics-ASI XQ-67 drone are completed on RECORd time. What's your opinion on this?, because if we look at the plan of USAF they seem to frame their CCA on a common chassis with single engine. The chassis can have single production line while later the aerostructures can be added for various configurations like cranked kite or pure flying wing or fighter jet esque shape etc. It reduces logistics and improves production numbers. How about HTFE-25 a 25kN engine which they have been dabbling on for 10 years, if such attains clearance, a common chassis can be build so that we can get a flying wing shape drone optimized for air-to-ground while a fighter jet esque shape optimized for air-to-air. I hope they complete the Ghatak as soon as possible otherwise we will be taken out by hordes of Chinese loyal wingmans.
In what universe, US has lost its edge across the spectrum from tech to financial dominance. Only transformation is now you can't be sure if they have a dick under their skirts or pants. Woke airforce and outdated strategy with shit products like f-35 and frequent crashes. Only place US excels now is perhaps intel and stockmarket ponzi scheme and thats it. With a demented president and his woke team, less you talk about US being supreme the better it is. Not even the American's are confident of their system or future anymore.
 

Azaad

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2022
Messages
7,437
Likes
27,911
Country flag

As per this video IIT Chennai developed RAMJET powered 155 mm shell to be mfgd with Munitions India Ltd - carved out of OFB since it's corporatization , will have different ranges depending on the platform firing it with 70 kms +, the maximum range expected from the ATAGS. These are guesstimates & the video doesn't say when are these shells going to be tested.

However a Norwegian based company which IIRC has already developed / on the verge of developing this same technology claims it has the ability to go beyond 100 kms ( 150 kms as per the video ) & is now tying up with Kalyani.

Let's hope for the best .
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,835
Likes
22,939
Country flag
paint amca on any imported 5th project aircraft.
Please don't be in league of stupid no brainers here who keep on spamming the thread by their RR. Being a senior member, just give your POV o this.
 

Blood+

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Messages
2,915
Likes
4,582
Country flag
Good.
To whom should GoI release the fund to?
The developers and HAL?? For fabricating the prototype??
PS - I AM aware about that whole public-private venture malarkey that's been going on but clearly it ain't working.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,835
Likes
22,939
Country flag
Obviously it has to be HAL.
There lies the issue.

Actually this was what the original plan was supposed to be. But may be many here might have forgot the tantrums thrown by private companies when they said that they are not getting level playing ground compared to DPSU.

After that GoI back in 2016 under Dr. Parrikar came up with the idea of indulging private companies as Development cum Production partner for DRDO. From that instance itself it has been decided that AMCA would be a complete private job where private companies would be able to use HAL facility and manpower for prototype development.

Now if again we would go back to the initial era of HAL making each and every aircraft, GoI is going to share the whole cost burden which they basically don't want at this point of time.
 

AnantS

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2013
Messages
5,718
Likes
15,261
Country flag
Please don't be in league of stupid no brainers here who keep on spamming the thread by their RR. Being a senior member, just give your POV o this.
Sorry i dont think there are designers nor ADA folks out here. So as a Senior league of stupid no brainer -I think issues faced by indian inc are quite known - frankly technology limitations which leads long fructration times of individual components. Some areas like engines are still PITA for us. Not sure still what AMCA final engine would be, currently 414 interim seems like orpheus saga rehash.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
8,835
Likes
22,939
Country flag
Sorry i dont think there are designers nor ADA folks out here. So as a Senior league of stupid no brainer -I think issues faced by indian inc are quite known - frankly technology limitations which leads long fructration times of individual components. Some areas like engines are still PITA for us. Not sure still what AMCA final engine would be, currently 414 interim seems like orpheus saga rehash.
Actually unlike Tejas, in engine front, we have been quite clear regarding Mk2, AMCA and TEDBF. It was 414 from design phase itself. So that's not an issue. We are not making the foolish decision of integrating Project Kaveri with Project AMCA or others.

Your points over here are pretty sane unlike few others who has to comment on every posts. So please try to keep them sane.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top