DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

[AnantS]

MTU was the arm twister, so MOD gave them middle finger and changed engine to Cummins. Rumored to be the ACE engine.

Yes thats what I was implying in reply. Holier thou acting German Company was MTU.

 

[Chinmoy]

No news on alcm , based on nirbhay
Hope it too have tested

Intake tests were going on.

 

[Blood+]

Can any informed member here kindly confirm whether VL-SRSAM and Barak 8s come with foldable wings or not?? Thanks in advance.

 

[Fatalis]

Can any informed member here kindly confirm whether VL-SRSAM and Barak 8s come with foldable wings or not?? Thanks in advance.

Both come with foldable wings.

 

[Chinmoy]

I meant post selection of engine partner funds will be released for amca
So amca clearance is 6 months away

Not a necessity now.

 

[Blood+]

Both come with foldable wings.

Ok, thanks. So you think there would be a possibility for VL-SRSAM to be quad-packed and Barak 8 to be dual-packed when the UVLS comes online??

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

Collective failure of our leadership's vision in MoD, PSUs, Defense Forces and government will leave us being perpetually behind our rivals(China) for least next two decade.

 

[Chinmoy]

Ok, thanks. So you think there would be a possibility for VL-SRSAM to be quad-packed and Barak 8 to be dual-packed when the UVLS comes online??

Depends on the design. But it should.

 

[Chinmoy]

Collective failure of our leadership's vision in MoD, PSUs, Defense Forces and government will leave us being perpetually behind our rivals(China) for least next two decade.

Not just MoD, DPSU, Defense forces. Also include other ministries like Commerce and Industry, Road and highway, Railway, Environmental, Law and others.

MoD and Defense forces are least to be blamed.

 

[raju1982]

Collective failure of our leadership's vision in MoD, PSUs, Defense Forces and government will leave us being perpetually behind our rivals(China) for least next two decade.

We are also progressing but not like others specially China, Korea, Turkey etc. The primary problem is R&D timeframe is too long and ultimate mismanagement with zero accountability. For example P-15B being repeat order of P-15A, still taking 8 years to build, while Japan took 3 years to build bigger DDGs. Before that they used bzz words like "modular shipbuilding" which will reduce time to sognificantly.

16 years old article...

Next generation shipbuilding for next generation frigates

www.ajaishukla.com

This can be repeatation of the history like India falling behind West in industrial revolution and we know what happened afterwards. China under Xi is more dangerous than, Third riech umder Hitler. We must be prepared.

Solution: Revamp DRDO, fund big ticket private projects with outcome based orders within timeframe. Hunt for international talents and buy tech companies from West (though mostly safeguarded by now, China bought many. Just like Tata bought Land Rover Jaguar etc and used the techs silently in own vehicles).

 

[ezsasa]

Collective failure of our leadership's vision in MoD, PSUs, Defense Forces and government will leave us being perpetually behind our rivals(China) for least next two decade.

it's not the vision that's the issue, it's about commentariat not acknowledging the real world complexities, complexities that predate the leadership at any point in time. the higher you go up the leadership ladder in this country, the more it's like playing multiplayer chess game.

in this case, folks who solely focus on defence as a vertical, usually do not take into account other factors influencing the decisions. every constituency feels, their agenda deserves highest priority, even within defence vertical.

within defence these are the primary hindrances in my view:

1) Resource crunch
2) three decades of backlogs
3) cannot hurry engineering solutions, they have their own time lines
4) defensive doctrine

if folks want peace of mind while being an observer of defence related matters in India, they have to keep their areas of interest horizon broad, specific and be willing to look at things for a prolonged period of time.

Realism is your best friend.

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

it's not the vision that's the issue, it's about commentariat not acknowledging the real world complexities, complexities that predate the leadership at any point in time. the higher you go up the leadership ladder in this country, the more it's like playing multiplayer chess game.

View attachment 229607

in this case, folks who solely focus on defence as a vertical, usually do not take into account other factors influencing the decisions. every constituency feels, their agenda deserves highest priority, even within defence vertical.

within defence these are the primary hindrances in my view:

1) Resource crunch
2) three decades of backlogs
3) cannot hurry engineering solutions, they have their own time lines
4) defensive doctrine

if folks want peace of mind while being an observer of defence related matters in India, they have to keep their areas of interest horizon broad, specific and be willing to look at things for a prolonged period of time.

Realism is your best friend.

I am not talking about buying shiny super expensive toys. Even the basic kits are unavailable for the forces. Ex: Army- Even in the 2020s, our Army have inferior kits than Hamas and Mexican cartel. Buying decent rifles, body armor kits doesn't cost in gold unlike some fancy Apache. Its all about proper planning. Army don't have howitzers for three decades even when we have multiple indigenous platforms. If made in India, they will not only provide army with modern weapons but will also generate lot of jobs.

Airforce: Haven't bought indigenous helicopters, not enough planning if MMRCA fails, Air refuelrs, AWACs, transport AC. All of these programs have recurring start and stop problem which no one is able to solve.

Navy: No vision for P75I,76, destroyers post P15B. They want 2nd AC, but don't have enough auxiliary ships.

A lot of above problems could simply be solved with proper planning & vision without spending tonnes of money. Its not about resource deficiency.

 

[raju1982]

T

it's not the vision that's the issue, it's about commentariat not acknowledging the real world complexities, complexities that predate the leadership at any point in time. the higher you go up the leadership ladder in this country, the more it's like playing multiplayer chess game.

View attachment 229607

in this case, folks who solely focus on defence as a vertical, usually do not take into account other factors influencing the decisions. every constituency feels, their agenda deserves highest priority, even within defence vertical.

within defence these are the primary hindrances in my view:

1) Resource crunch
2) three decades of backlogs
3) cannot hurry engineering solutions, they have their own time lines
4) defensive doctrine

if folks want peace of mind while being an observer of defence related matters in India, they have to keep their areas of interest horizon broad, specific and be willing to look at things for a prolonged period of time.

Realism is your best friend.

To add to your list, I think the greatest issue is, not having a profit based business model for MIC which fuels R&D and timely delivery.

If we look at the largest MICs around the world specially USA, Russia, France, China, UK, Germany, Israel etc all have their own Lockheed/Boeing. Latest example is Byraktr from Turkey. India with $4 trillion economy, still missing from the list. Modi must resist PSUs/Left unions for that.

 

[ezsasa]

T

To add to your list, I think the greatest issue is, not having a profit based business model for MIC which fuels R&D and timely delivery.

If we look at the largest MICs around the world specially USA, Russia, France, China, UK, Germany, Israel etc all have their own Lockheed/Boeing. Latest example is Byraktr from Turkey. India with $4 trillion economy, still missing from the list. Modi must resist PSUs/Left unions for that.

domestic MIC is a recent phenomenon, even though they have been silently working as component suppliers to defence industry in the background for decades, it's only now they are being able to compete against DPSUs in some categories(not all).

the countries that have been mentioned, have recognised their MICs as strategic industries which got their boost in WW2 and post WW2, in our case they are a sunrise sector. age of the industry matters. even with in the current crop of domestic private defence companies, the ones with suitable business model will survive, many will fade away even if they have a good product.

turkey is a good case in point, since 2002 their govt (AKP party) wanted to develop their private defence industry, they are seeing results. it's a twenty year journey, ours is 5-6 year journey.

Since the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power in 2002, Turkey’s indigenous defense industry witnessed a revolution

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/turkey-defense-baykar-gcc-gulf/

Modi is not going to be there forever, building institutional capacity is the key not a person, so that the process survives political changes. at this point in time, we don't know if current favourable winds will survive if there is a change in govt.

by the way, it's not modi who started industry "self reliance" mantra, it existed since nehru era. difference is that nehru wanted to achieve it thru soviet model, modi wants to achieve it thru semi-capitalism model.

 

[Chinmoy]

I am not talking about buying shiny super expensive toys. Even the basic kits are unavailable for the forces. Ex: Army- Even in the 2020s, our Army have inferior kits than Hamas and Mexican cartel. Buying decent rifles, body armor kits doesn't cost in gold unlike some fancy Apache. Its all about proper planning. Army don't have howitzers for three decades even when we have multiple indigenous platforms. If made in India, they will not only provide army with modern weapons but will also generate lot of jobs.

Airforce: Haven't bought indigenous helicopters, not enough planning if MMRCA fails, Air refuelrs, AWACs, transport AC. All of these programs have recurring start and stop problem which no one is able to solve.

Navy: No vision for P75I,76, destroyers post P15B. They want 2nd AC, but don't have enough auxiliary ships.

A lot of above problems could simply be solved with proper planning & vision without spending tonnes of money. Its not about resource deficiency.

I can reply to this. But do you want to hear?

 

[ezsasa]

I am not talking about buying shiny super expensive toys. Even the basic kits are unavailable for the forces. Ex: Army- Even in the 2020s, our Army have inferior kits than Hamas and Mexican cartel. Buying decent rifles, body armor kits doesn't cost in gold unlike some fancy Apache. Its all about proper planning. Army don't have howitzers for three decades even when we have multiple indigenous platforms. If made in India, they will not only provide army with modern weapons but will also generate lot of jobs.

Airforce: Haven't bought indigenous helicopters, not enough planning if MMRCA fails, Air refuelrs, AWACs, transport AC. All of these programs have recurring start and stop problem which no one is able to solve.

Navy: No vision for P75I,76, destroyers post P15B. They want 2nd AC, but don't have enough auxiliary ships.

A lot of above problems could simply be solved with proper planning & vision without spending tonnes of money. Its not about resource deficiency.

ofcourse your points are valid.

each one of the points mentioned probably deserve a book on it's own, wish we could quote a professional chronicler instead of building a timeline ourselves, but it is not the case for now. whether such books should be written, in a case like India's where our adversaries are constant is a matter of debate.

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/modi-sarkaar-defence-acquisitions.81314/page-7

on my part, i did maintain a amateur level chronicle of defence purchasing history since year 2014. one thing to notice is that it's not just the big items capex goes into, numerous small items as well.

for example: when it comes to airforce, every one talks about MMRCA, TEJAS etc. but very few talk about the fact that IAF has spent almost 30,000 crores upgrading airfields during the same period.

you don't need to rely on internet, threads here at DFI are a chronicle on each of these topics. if you have time to spare and patience to skip thru chit-chat and catfights , you can build a time line for each of your points. info on where did the process stop each time will be here somewhere.

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

I can reply to this. But do you want to hear?

I am not a covid kid who is new to defense. I know MRFA from the era when Mirage 2000 was a contender. So, spare me the sermon. Whatever Ezsaza have pointed out, I know most of them, but that doesn't hide how myopic our leadership of all verticals has been with defense.

 

[Chinmoy]

I am not a covid kid who is new to defense. I know MRFA from the era when Mirage 2000 was a contender. So, spare me the sermon. Whatever Ezsaza have pointed out, I know most of them, but that doesn't hide how myopic our leadership of all verticals has been with defense.

Now there lies the problem. No one wants to listen where the problem is. Its not the leadership, but its us who are myopic in our lookout.

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

Now there lies the problem. No one wants to listen where the problem is. Its not the leadership, but its us who are myopic in our lookout.

What myopic? Could you care to explain. All I am saying a better planning and money distribution could have solved most of our basic issues.

 

[Fatalis]

Ok, thanks. So you think there would be a possibility for VL-SRSAM to be quad-packed and Barak 8 to be dual-packed when the UVLS comes online??

Name	VL-SRSAM	MRSAM
Weight	170 kg	275 kg
Length	3.9 m	4.5 m
Diameter	178 mm	225 mm
Range	30-50km*	70km

Current UVLM is 1m x 1m. Most probably the upcoming UVLS will also have similar dimensions, so chances are both missiles i.e VL-SRSAM and MRSAM can be quad-packed in it.