DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

[abingdonboy]

The deal is there for 150 guns so far .... as per reports.
Indian Army requires about 3000 guns which OFB and Bharat Forge (ATAGS) alone will not be able to supply for next 15 years..

By then the howitzers themselves may become extinct ......

Sorry but I call BS. If given the orders any major company in India can and will scale up accordingly. PSU or private company.

This is not a chicken and egg situation. Orders HAVE to come before production capacity is invested in. Army wants 3000 guns but only orders 150 guns? Or 114 (Dhanush) and are then upset when induction rates are low?

This is the same nonsense being thrown around vis a vis the LCA when the reality is the IAF has ONLY committed to 40 (20+20) MK.1s, not a single unit more. Even so HAL has taken the decision to use their own funds to expand capacity to 8,12,16++ year in the *hope* that the great IAF/MOD babudom orders more in the near future. But imagine if they don’t- all that capital (physical and human) sat idle, it’s for that reason that these companies cannot simply expand production rates overnight.


Why does everyone think the US has the largest and most capable MIC in the world? Because it has the largest customers on their doorstep. When the US military has a requirement they don’t play these stupid games of the IAF/IN/IA- a handful here, a handful there, they lay out their total requirement and commit to them from day one. 100s of fighter jets ordered in one go, dozens of warships etc etc. Then the economies of scale become so enormous that foreign nations jump at the products.

This is why the Indian MIC will hasn’t taken off- because the Indian armed forces are just terrible customers- they mess around with inconsistent requirements, lengthy trails and then endless procedural hurdles that can very likely end in no orders anyway.

And before someone says it, ALL the three services are guilty of this crap- the IAF (other than their aforementioned LCA debacle, they have plenty of examples- RSH, MMRCA etc etc) IA(god, where to begin? Just endless list of small arms circuses- carbines, rifles, LMGs etc etc, arty, etc ) and the IN (ordering 3 P17s only for some god knows what reason then the follow on class 10+ years later, same story for P15A/B, same story go aircraft carriers, SSKs etc).

The world’s 2nd/3rd largest military should be the perfect catalyst to produce a world class competitive MIC but instead largely because of the 3 services and MOD this is far from the case.

 

[abingdonboy]

The reported number is 400 not 150. I think deal will be clear in a few weeks.

Dhanush is now in production and ATAGS development is coming to a decent end. I’d say there is less than 1% chance this deal gets signed, it would be utterly criminal to do so at this point.

 

[Hari Sud]

Is anything wrong with Dhanush or TATA/Bharat Forge guns that we are going for the Israeli gun.

Is it a false information or the Indian Army is deliberately adding tests upon tests to reject Indian made guns.

 

[garg_bharat]

Is anything wrong with Dhanush or TATA/Bharat Forge guns that we are going for the Israeli gun.

Is it a false information or the Indian Army is deliberately adding tests upon tests to reject Indian made guns.

ATHOS is being bought - likely in both towed and truck mounted versions. Info will come out soon after new defence minister takes charge.

ATAGS is under development. More trials ahead with additional guns.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Is anything wrong with Dhanush or TATA/Bharat Forge guns that we are going for the Israeli gun.

Is it a false information or the Indian Army is deliberately adding tests upon tests to reject Indian made guns.

If athos do came be rest assured our DHANUSH AS WELL AS ATAGS are useless then.
I don't understand how army can go for the Israeli gun when you from day one entered with DRDO and industry to make your own gun according to YOUR OWN NEED in the form of ATAGS.
ATHOS if bought will only be an import of 1 billion dollars with no significant TECHNOLOGY GAIN.
I can't understand why one want to invest billion dollars in IMPORT? and why not invest those on DRONES which we are buying from USA.
Right now BJP is in power and ATAGS is the project they invested their time on heck both gun were even shown in republic day parade as a win for indigenous weapon development.
I don't think they will allow this.

 

[Shaitan]

If athos do came be rest assured our DHANUSH AS WELL AS ATAGS are useless then.
I don't understand how army can go for the Israeli gun when you from day one entered with DRDO and industry to make your own gun according to YOUR OWN NEED in the form of ATAGS.
ATHOS if bought will only be an import of 1 billion dollars with no significant TECHNOLOGY GAIN.
I can't understand why one want to invest billion dollars in IMPORT? and why not invest those on DRONES which we are buying from USA.
Right now BJP is in power and ATAGS is the project they invested their time on heck both gun were even shown in republic day parade as a win for indigenous weapon development.
I don't think they will allow this.

The foreign gun program predates the ATAGS and Dhanush. Dhanush seem to only happen when OFB was out of both the foreign gun program, as well as the DRDO's ATAGS. If they used the blue prints to do what they did now, maybe there would be no ATHOS, ATAGS, etc. Even then the Dhanush 52 isnt in user trials just yet.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

The foreign gun program predates the ATAGS and Dhanush. Dhanush seem to only happen when OFB was out of both the foreign gun program, as well as the DRDO's ATAGS. If they used the blue prints to do what they did now, maybe there would be no ATHOS, ATAGS, etc. Even then the Dhanush 52 isnt in user trials just yet.

Oh sir thanks for replying.
YOUR ZANDU BALM ALL Day always make me smile no matter in whatever shit I am in.
I am big followers of yours here.
Sir, then what must be the discourse according to you from here?
According to that news article which said athos gun is selected, ORDER can be of more than a billion dollars for them and a billion dollars import for us.
Do you think now when we have ATAGS and dhanush (well what happened during fuck congress era why they never initiated a program of ATAGS scale during their time the reason for that we all here already know), is it right to go for ATHOS whose import value is more than billion dollars?
Also don't you think this CONSTANT TRIALS are too much?
I think our ATAGS DEVELOPMENT TIME WILL BE LESSER THAN THIS TRIALS TIME if this type of thing goes on.
Though I am not against this but how many more trials untill they are satisfied.
I want to ask, why we can't go f-35 way?

 

[Shaitan]

Oh sir thanks for replying.
YOUR ZANDU BALM ALL Day always make me smile no matter in whatever shit I am in.
I am big followers of yours here.
Sir, then what must be the discourse according to you from here?
According to that news article which said athos gun is selected, ORDER can be of more than a billion dollars for them and a billion dollars import for us.
Do you think now when we have ATAGS and dhanush (well what happened during fuck congress era why they never initiated a program of ATAGS scale during their time the reason for that we all here already know), is it right to go for ATHOS whose import value is more than billion dollars?
Also don't you think this CONSTANT TRIALS are too much?
I think our ATAGS DEVELOPMENT TIME WILL BE LESSER THAN THIS TRIALS TIME if this type of thing goes on.
Though I am not against this but how many more trials untill they are satisfied.
I want to ask, why we can't go f-35 way?

Thanks!!

In a perfect scenario for me it should be only ATAGSs and Dhanush 52 - and wheeled, tracked platforms of both. But the likes of Athos, K9, etc have been in line trialing for some time now, before those home grown programs existed I believe, so they'll get a slice of the pie. The big winner is Bharat Forge who will initially assemble Athos and their own ATAGS.

I also dont like the infinite trials, but I wanna give the user the benefit of the doubt about the weight issue of the ATAGS, for now.

 

[Bhadra]

Don't get so obsessed with the production capacity alone; you need to consider IA's ability to make annual payments too!!

Tata & L&T each produce about 100 a year...which is 200 in total costing around $1 Billion (a year). Even if Tata & L&T can output 2000 a year IA won't be able to make a payment of $10 Billion in a single year!!

Ok agreed.
But even if money was available no one is going to create such a production line which will go without any work after three -four years.

Such production capacities are created as emergency measures only which subsequently lead to financial collapses (Britain, France, Germany and USSR during WWII).

Then what is the alternative - to diversify orders to four five vendors who can then combinely give larger quantities.

 

[Defcon 1]

Sorry but I call BS. If given the orders any major company in India can and will scale up accordingly. PSU or private company.

This is not a chicken and egg situation. Orders HAVE to come before production capacity is invested in. Army wants 3000 guns but only orders 150 guns? Or 114 (Dhanush) and are then upset when induction rates are low?

This is the same nonsense being thrown around vis a vis the LCA when the reality is the IAF has ONLY committed to 40 (20+20) MK.1s, not a single unit more. Even so HAL has taken the decision to use their own funds to expand capacity to 8,12,16++ year in the *hope* that the great IAF/MOD babudom orders more in the near future. But imagine if they don’t- all that capital (physical and human) sat idle, it’s for that reason that these companies cannot simply expand production rates overnight.


Why does everyone think the US has the largest and most capable MIC in the world? Because it has the largest customers on their doorstep. When the US military has a requirement they don’t play these stupid games of the IAF/IN/IA- a handful here, a handful there, they lay out their total requirement and commit to them from day one. 100s of fighter jets ordered in one go, dozens of warships etc etc. Then the economies of scale become so enormous that foreign nations jump at the products.

This is why the Indian MIC will hasn’t taken off- because the Indian armed forces are just terrible customers- they mess around with inconsistent requirements, lengthy trails and then endless procedural hurdles that can very likely end in no orders anyway.

And before someone says it, ALL the three services are guilty of this crap- the IAF (other than their aforementioned LCA debacle, they have plenty of examples- RSH, MMRCA etc etc) IA(god, where to begin? Just endless list of small arms circuses- carbines, rifles, LMGs etc etc, arty, etc ) and the IN (ordering 3 P17s only for some god knows what reason then the follow on class 10+ years later, same story for P15A/B, same story go aircraft carriers, SSKs etc).

The world’s 2nd/3rd largest military should be the perfect catalyst to produce a world class competitive MIC but instead largely because of the 3 services and MOD this is far from the case.

This is how orders are placed all over the world. IAF was gracious to order 40 LCA before even IOC. US used to order F35 only for one year of production. They would order one batch every year. Only now, they have ordered enough to sustain production for 3-4 years. LCA always had a requirement of 123 fighters after MMRCA and now IAF has committed 201 for LCA Mk2 as well. Formal orders will come as the product matures.

Similar is the case orders for Zumwalt class destroyers. Actually every military product is ordered piecemeal.

And please don't repeat this fanboy BS of HAL committing their own funds to setup production capacity. HAL was given 1300 crores by MOD to expand LCA's production capacity from 8 to 16 per annum. This is part of official record. HAL didn't spend a dime of their own. Even then, they will not increase the production capacity to 16 till 3 years after the MK1A order is given. HAL has accepted this themselves.

If the rest of the world's MIC can take off in the same manner, why should exception be given to Indian MIC?

 

[Vijyes]

Ok agreed.
But even if money was available no one is going to create such a production line which will go without any work after three -four years.

Such production capacities are created as emergency measures only which subsequently lead to financial collapses (Britain, France, Germany and USSR during WWII).

Then what is the alternative - to diversify orders to four five vendors who can then combinely give larger quantities.

How will anything go without work if there are orders? We always make plans about the requirement and make production capacity according to the timelines. Timeline is already calculated beforehand itself.

Even emergency capacity is created for war use and does not lead to bankruptcy. Bankruptcy is caused primarily due to external loans, not internal ones. WW2 bankruptcy was because cities were bombed and destroyed, not because of overcapacity.

Diversification is a safety strategy, not efficiency strategy. It is always more efficient to have single large vendor. For example, having capacity to make 50 guns a year in 4 different vendors vs having 200 gun making capacity in a single vendor ends up producing same number of guns. But the 4 vendor scenario has higher logistics cost compared to single vendor. Nevertheless, 4 vendor scenario can also mean that disruption due to strikes, disasters or war bombing will be less compared to 1 vendor

 

[Defcon 1]

Is anything wrong with Dhanush or TATA/Bharat Forge guns that we are going for the Israeli gun.

Is it a false information or the Indian Army is deliberately adding tests upon tests to reject Indian made guns.

There is nothing wrong with the guns. ATHOS requirement is old. In fact, the first tender for 155mm towed artillery was floated back in 2001. ATHOS is meant to be a stopgap till ATAGS gets matured. It was always the plan to induct about 400 imported guns and get over 1100 ATAGS. Obviously orders for imported guns will go up if ATAGs isn't delivered on time. Similarly, if there are issues in ATHOS order, it will be cancelled and ATAGS will fulfill that requirement.

The problem is some people are conveniently ignoring this fact and acting as if ATHOS has been dropped out of the sky on their heads.

 

[Vijyes]

This is how orders are placed all over the world. IAF was gracious to order 40 LCA before even IOC. US used to order F35 only for one year of production. They would order one batch every year. Only now, they have ordered enough to sustain production for 3-4 years. LCA always had a requirement of 123 fighters after MMRCA and now IAF has committed 201 for LCA Mk2 as well. Orders will come as the product matures.

Similar is the case orders for Zumwalt class destroyers. Actually every military product is ordered piecemeal.

If the rest of the world's MIC can take off in the same manner, why should exception be given to Indian MIC?

I agree with your analysis of other countries' MIC. But in India, there is political uncertainty due to poor track record of the government deliberately sabotaging the defence, delayed payments, abrupt cancelations and blacklisting without any valid reason. This track record cretes sense of uncertainty and fear, especially in companies taht are just strating to foray into defence sector. So, special attention must be paid to Indian MIC and long term orders must be placed

 

[Defcon 1]

I agree with your analysis of other countries' MIC. But in India, there is political uncertainty due to poor track record of the government deliberately sabotaging the defence, delayed payments, abrupt cancelations and blacklisting without any valid reason. This track record cretes sense of uncertainty and fear, especially in companies taht are just strating to foray into defence sector. So, special attention must be paid to Indian MIC and long term orders must be placed

No force will commit billions of dollars for products which are in development, considering the spotted history of DRDO in delivering.

Anyways, the point I am trying to make is Indian MIC is not suffering due to piecemeal orders. There is not a single instance where piecemeal orders have hurt anything. The problem occurs when DRDO develops a flawed product which doesn't meets requirements, and then starts another project to improve the initial flawed version of the product, and expects the armed forces to keep ordering that flawed product till they make improvements. This is exactly what happened with Arjun tank. This was the same thing which was going to happen with LCA but Parrikar stepped in saved LCA by getting ADA to develop LCA Mk1A which IAF agreed to buy.

Instead of blaming armed forces, we should hold DRDO accountable.

 

[Vijyes]

There is nothing wrong with the guns. ATHOS requirement is old. In fact, the first tender for 155mm towed artillery was floated back in 2001. ATHOS is meant to be a stopgap till ATAGS gets matured. It was always the plan to induct about 400 imported guns and get over 1100 ATAGS. Obviously orders for imported guns will go up if ATAGs isn't delivered on time. Similarly, if there are issues in ATHOS order, it will be cancelled and ATAGS will fulfill that requirement.

The problem is some people are conveniently ignoring this fact and acting as if ATHOS has been dropped out of the sky on their heads.

ATHOS is not much better than dhanush. Except taht it is 155x52 caliber there is hardly any real operational advantage over dhanush. The maximum range of ATHOS is 41km while dhanush is 38km. Weight is similar. The firing rate (burst, intense and sustained) of dhanush is better than ATHOS.

So, when India already has made dhanush, why induct ATHOS in a hurry? Why is it that dhanush can't be used as stop gap for ATAGS?

 

[Vijyes]

No force will commit billions of dollars for products which are in development, considering the spotted history of DRDO in delivering.

Anyways, the point I am trying to make is Indian MIC is not suffering due to piecemeal orders. There is not a single instance where piecemeal orders have hurt anything. The problem occurs when DRDO develops a flawed product which doesn't meets requirements, and then starts another project to improve the initial flawed version of the product, and expects the armed forces to keep ordering that flawed product till they make improvements. This is exactly what happened with Arjun tank. This was the same thing which was going to happen with LCA but Parrikar stepped in saved LCA by getting ADA to develop LCA Mk1A which IAF agreed to buy.

Instead of blaming armed forces, we should hold DRDO accountable.

It is common sense that none will order things which are not yet developed. But things which are already developed and passed developmental trials are considered to be IOC level and can be ordered. Stating that DRDO makes flawed products is obnoxious, especially when the specifications are flawed. If no "futuristic" speciications are given, DRDO can develop things according to the specifications without flaw. It should instead be made a rule that specifications must not exceed the parameters of internationally available alternatives and any idea of "futuristic" nonsense must be dealt with a heavy hand.

 

[Defcon 1]

ATHOS is not much better than dhanush. Except taht it is 155x52 caliber there is hardly any real operational advantage over dhanush. The maximum range of ATHOS is 41km while dhanush is 38km. Weight is similar. The firing rate (burst, intense and sustained) of dhanush is better than ATHOS.

So, when India already has made dhanush, why induct ATHOS in a hurry? Why is it that dhanush can't be used as stop gap for ATAGS?

Dhanush is already being used as a stopgap. Army's requirements are only to induct 155*52 caliber guns. Since such a doesn't exist as of now, they are making do with a combination of ATHOS and Dhanush. Once ATAGS enters production, no more Dhanush and ATHOS will be ordered.

 

[Defcon 1]

It is common sense that none will order things which are not yet developed. But things which are already developed and passed developmental trials are considered to be IOC level and can be ordered. Stating that DRDO makes flawed products is obnoxious, especially when the specifications are flawed. If no "futuristic" speciications are given, DRDO can develop things according to the specifications without flaw. It should instead be made a rule that specifications must not exceed the parameters of internationally available alternatives and any idea of "futuristic" nonsense must be dealt with a heavy hand.

Are you going to back this up with some examples or this is only your theoretical opinion?

 

[Bhadra]

Many members here see the issue from a very narrow perspective. They least realise what trepidation and drggery Indian Army artillary has been put under due to sheer neglect .

* It took donkeys years for DRDO and OFB to modify 105mm Guns toi ILFG.
* DRDO /OFV have never graduated from WWII mortar equipment - 160mm, 120mm and 81mm
* It took 40 years for them to graduate from 2 inch Mortar to 51 mm Mortar.
* Indian Army struggled through conversion of their 130mm guns to 155mm which OFB / DRDO were not able to * do and the contract ultimately falling to Soltam (now Elbit of ATHOS) but that was also unsatisfactory.
* OFB sat on ToT of Bofors for 35 years and now when given kicks they want all 3000 guns to be Dhanus.
* Shortage and bad quality of 155mm ammunition made by OFB is a legend in itself.
* It was decided in 1990 that only modern electronic fuzes will be used for artillery shells. However, even today DRDO / OFB is not able to make any fuzes. The PSU which assembles it imports all components from South Africa in insufficient quantity.
* Project Shakti took about 30 years.
* BSFSRs are being inducted now after 70 years of independence.
* Gun / Motor locating radar were inducted now.
* There is no course correction fuzes for artillery shell.

All will go to war shouting:
DRDO Zinda Bagh
OFB Zinda Bagh.
Jai Shri Ram..... Ham ko Mar Do Tum raho Abad...

DRDO motto meanwhile was - Guns ka kya karoge ? Rockets Le Lo...

 

[Vijyes]

Dhanush is already being used as a stopgap. Army's requirements are only to induct 155*52 caliber guns. Since such a doesn't exist as of now, they are making do with a combination of ATHOS and Dhanush. Once ATAGS enters production, no more Dhanush and ATHOS will be ordered.

I hope you understand that merely 52 caliber is not enough. ATHOS is not similar to ATAGS despite it being 52 caliber gun. The reason is that other parameters like chamber capacity also matter. Comparing guns merely by caliber is like comparing a pistol with submachine gun.

It is like comparing this M9 pistol with 9mm cartidge:

with this MP5 which also uses 9mm cartridge:

In artillery, the chamber pressure is very important factor as higher chamber pressure will mean higher muzzle velocity. The chamber capacity of Dhanush is similar to ATHOS while chamber capacity of ATAGS is significantly higher. That is the reason why ATHOS has range of 41km while ATAGS has 47km. If ATHOS can be a stop gap, there is hardly any reason to not use dhanush as stop gap. ATHOS is comparable to dhanush rather than to ATAGS due to its smaller chamber pressure