Dhanush the Indian Bofors

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Dude, i am agreeing that all mass manufacturing after 1990 involved upgrades. Now please tell me the name of one weapon system whose price decreased by 80% due to high amount of orders.

Show me the weapon which had high amount of order? Only weapon I know is M16 rifle. That costs USA army $700 dollars (Rs 50000) only due to its mass manufacturing. The ammunition like 9mm bullets in USA cost 10 cents (Rs 7) per cartridge.

If you want any other example, first point out a weapon which was mass manufactured without upgrades and I will show you how the cost reduced

 

[Bleh]

First explain what is the advantage of Athos over Dhanush. Don't talk about 45 vs 52 caliber. Is there any quality issue which hinders getting results? Merely because the shell is 45mm does not mean that it is useless and has to be replaced. As long as objectives can be obtained, it is good enough

Ex-fucking-actly!!!! There are none, other than......
When capabilities & weight requirements match, they'll pick out non-issues like name, colour etc.

So 45 was minimum and 60 was maximum.
You are saying.

48km was the max range achieved on plain land, if you fire from higher altitude on target on lower ground, then the max range is 60km.

What the dinosaur doesn't understand is that it's not WW2 anymore... tricks like shoot-scoot could soon become a thing of the past. Indian or Chink satellites/AWACS might be constantly & easily looking at each other's arty locations in case of a limited war, while calculating & sending live feed of exact aiming-data to enemy arty positions.
A few Swati radars are turning tables at LOC, just imagine what future tech would be able to do!!!

Ability to hit their arty from miles outside their range would be an advantage if they can locate, calculate, target & hit ours within moments after entering their's range.

 

[Defcon 1]

Show me the weapon which had high amount of order? Only weapon I know is M16 rifle. That costs USA army $700 dollars (Rs 50000) only due to its mass manufacturing. The ammunition like 9mm bullets in USA cost 10 cents (Rs 7) per cartridge.

If you want any other example, first point out a weapon which was mass manufactured without upgrades and I will show you how the cost reduced

As i wrote in my previous post, please take f16 as an example

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

As i wrote in my previous post, please take f16 as an example

F16 has been upgraded continually. It even got AESA radar, advanced EW, new weapons integration etc. So, these costs keep piling up. That is why I said "without upgrades". The only weapon I know is guns and bullets. If you know of any other, then point out, I will show how cost reduced. Upgraded items are not allowed

 

[Bleh]

F16 has been upgraded continually. It even got AESA radar, advanced EW, new weapons integration etc. So, these costs keep piling up. That is why I said "without upgrades". The only weapon I know is guns and bullets. If you know of any other, then point out, I will show how cost reduced. Upgraded items are not allowed

Actually artillery guns might be needing drastic upgrades...
As i said in last post, 10 years from today, they could be auto-aiming based on data sent from AWACS or spy-sat (like CIWS or radar-guided AAA does today) & firing guided munition which may get cheaper in future.

If that happens then it's hard to predict. You can expect mounted & autoloaded, with a control-room like MLRS or SAM units, to become the norm instead of towed arty (except Ultralights to be airlifted)...

 

[garg_bharat]

WHy is this the case? Because there is no war. When war is anticipated, will it still be manufcatured in small quantity?


It is extremely easy to manufacture if you have the technology. Getting the technology is the hard part. Once technology is there, manufacturing is 1 lakh times easy


Stop this mental talks. Manufacturing is not a difficult thing but "R&D" is. If there is already technology, then mass manufacturing is a piece of cake. Why talk nonsense? If you don't know, just shut up or simply ask questions

No manufacturing is not at all easy.

In fact prototype requires the same technology as needed by the final product. You import one machine for prototype; but you need several machines for production. Typically all such machines are imported.

The capability of industry is not established in a day. There is a process of innovation and constant improvement.

I am just giving you one snippet - ATAGS cannot be manufactured by OFB as it does not have the capability.

You give lot of statements which have no basis in fact. I am not sure what is your intention.

 

[garg_bharat]

Basic projectile motion... Guns too follow laws of physics.

Boss ranges are established for level ground. When we say 38km, it is for level ground.
There is a ballistics computer in the gun which corrects the trajectory for height, wind etc.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

In fact prototype requires the same technology as needed by the final product. You import one machine for prototype; but you need several machines for production. Typically all such machines are imported.

Again, I said clearly that "if technology is available" then manufacturing is easy. How importing something will mean technology is available. Even 1% import dependency (except in generic items like cloth, ball bearing) means technology is not available.

If technology is available to make even 1 item 100% indigenous, we can make 1 million of these by mass manufacturing.

I am just giving you one snippet - ATAGS cannot be manufactured by OFB as it does not have the capability.

AtAGS is not made by OFB and it is not even complete. It is said that Baba Kalyani imported the barrel from Denel. Without having technology, OFB can't make ATAGS. But OFB can make any number of Dhanush as ordered.

The capability of industry is not established in a day. There is a process of innovation and constant improvement.

Now you are talking of R&D. I have already said that if R&D is complete, then manufacturing is easy. R&D itself is very hard. So, I only talk of manufacturing those items for which R&D is completed and 100% indigenisation is achieved.

 

[Bleh]

We are already aiming using signals. But auto-aiming is difficult as man is always needed to check for nearby mountains (which can hiner fire at low angle), to load ammunition etc. Otherwise, aiming has now become very accurate

That's not what i meant... Think of tank gunner's sight, ok?

In cold war era that used to be just a scope, the gunner had to rectify based on range-finder data & eyeball the moving target based on some markings.

Nowadays the range, target speed, gun elevation are all calculated by the fire-control computer!

That kind of change would make a great unpredictability. Like a 90s guy trying to comprehend capabilities of F-35 based on early F-16.

Also I'm sure AESA AWACS would take 3D scans of terrain very soon... maybe even satellite radars.

Boss ranges are established for level ground. When we say 38km, it is for level ground.
There is a ballistics computer in the gun which corrects the trajectory for height, wind etc.

I could be wrong... but I'm pretty sure i read it somewhere.

Anyway, if that's true, then 10 years from today our satellites & AWACS could guide ATAGS to do Balakot like strike from far behind LOC.

 

[garg_bharat]

Advaidhya Tiwari, India is still heavily reliant on imported technology. If you do not know, it is your ignorance.

India is one of the biggest importer of machine tools.

Defence products cannot be made without imported machines.

When we talk of R&D by DRDO, it is basically product development. DRDO does not make machines and tools.

DRDO imports machines for product development, just like rest of industry.

I again say this categorically that local/import discussion is useless discussion and does not help in India becoming stronger militarily. Leave it to MOD/Forces to decide.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Advaidhya Tiwari, India is still heavily reliant on imported technology. If you do not know, it is your ignorance.

India is one of the biggest importer of machine tools.

Defence products cannot be made without imported machines.

When we talk of R&D by DRDO, it is basically product development. DRDO does not make machines and tools.

DRDO imports machines for product development, just like rest of industry.

I again say this categorically that local/import discussion is useless discussion and does not help in India becoming stronger militarily. Leave it to MOD/Forces to decide.

This is an assumption. India is capable of making the tools itself too. Getting the technology is more crucial than getting the tool. Tool import is just to fasten up the development and not an incapability. India can make tools as per requirement as long as it knows why the tool will be needed.

R&D is not just about development of software but also the finding of how to make the hardware and all the tools needed

So, manufacturing part is not hard. It is the R&D part which is the hard part. India does not need imported technology for making Dhanush, for example and hence there is no excuse for saying Dhanush can't be made enmasse

Also I'm sure AESA AWACS who would take 3D scans of terrain very soon... maybe been satellite radars.

We already have similar capability. It is called SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar). It overlaps several images/radar reflections as the plane travels to get a 3D image of terrain

 

[Defcon 1]

F16 has been upgraded continually. It even got AESA radar, advanced EW, new weapons integration etc. So, these costs keep piling up. That is why I said "without upgrades". The only weapon I know is guns and bullets. If you know of any other, then point out, I will show how cost reduced. Upgraded items are not allowed

Ok so you are basically saying that since atags will be continuously upgraded, cost will not actually fall by 80% even if an order of 2000 guns is placed. Good.

 

[garg_bharat]

Advaidhya Tiwari, Yes some machine tools are made in India. BUT most are still imported. Net net import dependence is still there.

In India, the defence ecosystem is lagging the civil ecosystem; whereas in USA the defence ecosystem leads the civil ecosystem.

A case in point is 155mm ammo factory (recently commissioned) is fully imported. If Indian machine tools were so advanced, there was no need of import.

 

[Hari Sud]

We have too many, rather mind boggling array of artillery guns under consideration or under serious development cycle.

Dhanush - it is already developed and a limited number ordered
Self propelled gun K9 Vajra - it is a South Korean gun already ordered
ATAGs. - A DRDO/L&T / TATA gun. No idea whether ordered or still pending
M777 - American gun, already delivered for mountain warfare
ATHOS - Israeli collaboration - is it on order or the army just likes it
ULTA Light Kalyani GUN - under serious development

The above and may be more are under consideration. This is way too many variation with serious maintenance and other issues which are difficult to solve.

Hence which one of the above will die and which one will stay active.

 

[garg_bharat]

The above and may be more are under consideration. This is way too many variation with serious maintenance and other issues which are difficult to solve.

Hence which one of the above will die and which one will stay active.

I think IA has several types of guns currently and all old guns are slated for replacement.
Types of new guns is no more than old guns.
Maintainability for new guns is better due to local sourcing of parts.

Manufacturing has changed. Now even one component can be fabricated due to advance in manufacturing technology. It is lean and flexible manufacturing now. So industry is quite capable to support these guns.

 

[garg_bharat]

India is a large country. India should be compared to USA and China; and not some small country.
Types of guns and tanks etc. does not matter for a country of India's size.

I like Bofors and Dhanush guns. I think there will be 1000+ Dhanush eventually.
ATHOS and ATAGS will cover the rest. M777 and new ultralight from Kalyani for mountain warfare, K9 vajra SPG, and truck mounted gun likely ATHOS will complete the picture.

 

[ram singh तोपची]

is it possible to use same shell / projectile ,NOT THE CHARGE in 155x39,155x45,155x52 artillery gun

 

[Bhadra]

is it possible to use same shell / projectile ,NOT THE CHARGE in 155x39,155x45,155x52 artillery gun

yes normal HE and many other shell will be no problems.

Athos has 41km range while Dhanush has 38km range. This is less than 10% difference. The reason Athos is light is because its barrel is not made as heavy as ATAGS and hence can withstand lesser pressure. So, despite its longer barrel (16% longer), it is not able to be significantly better than Dhanush. It is not able to match ATAGS in same barrel length due to less pressure handling ability.

So, merely citing 52 vs 45, it makes little sense without considering other factors too. So, why the insistence on 52 over 45 caliber?

Is it the barrel or chamber you are discussing ? both have different connotations and effect on range?

 

[Chinmoy]

How does ATAGS have lower size chamber, that too by 35%

Its a typo I think. He might have meant 25 ltrs.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Its a typo I think. He might have meant 25 ltrs.

In that case, same chamber size for Dhanush & Athos will raise a question as how a smaller barrel of 45 caliber have same chamber as 52 caliber gun