Civil war in Ukraine

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bose

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The Western allies have already moved on beyond Cold War mentality. You could see that in the business they have with Russia. Russia on the other hand did not (sure they were happy to have business with their former Cold War foes). Hence, they still see Ukraine, Georgia, and the other neighbors that are legally supposed to be independent and sovereign countries as "security buffers" against the West. So when these countries start indicating that they want closer relations to the Europeans Russia immediately puts into high gear its repressive Soviet days throw back measures against its smaller countries.
It is true that there are huge business transactions between Russia and Western allies, but they are also for mutually beneficial to both sides... Ukraine and other ex Soviet republics too get cheap Russian gas..and Russia get the western technologies and services...

The Americans specially are not comfortable with strong emerging nations and still believes that Russia will rise to a strong nation... today it is Russia, tomorrow it can China, Brazil or India... USA never stops to spy on its close friends... There is a strong lobby in America that are not yet reconciled of post cold war era... they simply does not want to change... want to push Russia back to the wall.. the excuse can be many... make out a bad guy and go after it...

All Ex Soviet republics that also include Ukraine have every right to be independent and determine its own destiny... what I would cation against putting themselves between the Russian and American fight as none [that also include Russia] have their own petty interests only... I always support Ukraine independent of Americans and Russians both... Ex Soviet republics have to play a well balancing act to remain equidistant from both... we see the consequence these days...

Can you tell me why do we need an expansion of NATO post cold war era ?
 

Meriv90

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The Western allies have already moved on beyond Cold War mentality. You could see that in the business they have with Russia. Russia on the other hand did not (sure they were happy to have business with their former Cold War foes). Hence, they still see Ukraine, Georgia, and the other neighbors that are legally supposed to be independent and sovereign countries as "security buffers" against the West. So when these countries start indicating that they want closer relations to the Europeans Russia immediately puts into high gear its repressive Soviet days throw back measures against its smaller countries.
LOL :rofl:
really, please explain me how the BMD system by US in east europe isn't in cold war style?

I must have been allucinating when I saw McCain in december 2013 in Maidan plaza instigating the conflict and giving US support to maidan protest, probably the estonian(one of the most anti-russian country) foreign minister was high meanwhile he was stating the presence of sniper provocateurs in Maidan protest. Or the polish that have pushed for Ukraine european integration since 2005.

the fact of economic ties doesn't mean that baltic countries, Poland, UK and US politics are over the Russian fear.
 
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Damian

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Can you tell me why do we need an expansion of NATO post cold war era ?
Because colective defence and friendship improves security and stability of member states?

I am surprised that people outside the NATO, are completely incapable to even understand the basic principles of this organization.

NATO is currently reversing to it's original purpose, collective defence and security, only threats changed, from a single threat like Soviet Union, to hybrid threat of regional conventional conflicts and terrorism.

Besides this, I think you completely don't understand how NATO expands, it is not that current members expand because they desire to. NATO expands by principle of voluntary, which means, that if a non member state wishes to join NATO, there is no problem he can try, it does not mean he will succeed, but still everyone can apply to join NATO.

This is how NATO expands, because every member can join only by his free will to do so.

This is why NATO is so popular, nobody is forced to join it, contrary to former WarPac for example, where everyone was forced to join by SU. That's the big difference.
 

bose

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Actually it is the opposite, I know from the pro-russian observers here in Europe, that separatists actually loose ground to Ukrainian Armed Forces.

One very well informed person (which have more pro-russian sympathys) said once that rebellion will loose, there is really no way they can win, and in fact, they should just give up if they want to live.

Of course, Ukrainian Army will take casualties, but Ukrainian Army have also greater reserves both in materiel and people.

Preaty much separatists are dead, and now after that incident with civilian aircraft, Russians pushed by santions, will most likely stop any support to separatists.

You can even see that Putin is tired, he knows he loose, because whatever he do, it is a bad decision, he can send troops to Ukraine, but this means war, which means costs, which means further santions which means economic collapse, or he can stop supporting separatists, but this means he loose support of his own nation, as they will see him weak, and not keeping his promises.... which were idiotic promises to be honest.

And this is more clear and clear here in Europe.

What is also clearly visible is that Ukrainians rise in their spirit, they have problems yes, but their morale is high, while separatists have larger and larger problems, I even saw a video where local people, mostly women, were attakicng Strelkov and demanding hit to surrender his separatist forces so civilians can get back to normal life. It is a sign that people there are also tired of the whole situation.
Russia will bleed Ukraine white and that is what Russians want... The civil war will continue and the casualties will pile up on both sides... nor the Americans / Europeans have the money to support the Ukraine for this civil war...

As the civilian dead increases in Eastern Ukraine the more possibility of Russian intervention there... Russia will not tolerate indiscriminate bombing of civilians in eastern Ukraine and sit tight... what will Americans do then ???
 
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bose

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Because colective defence and friendship improves security and stability of member states?

I am surprised that people outside the NATO, are completely incapable to even understand the basic principles of this organization.

NATO is currently reversing to it's original purpose, collective defence and security, only threats changed, from a single threat like Soviet Union, to hybrid threat of regional conventional conflicts and terrorism.

Besides this, I think you completely don't understand how NATO expands, it is not that current members expand because they desire to. NATO expands by principle of voluntary, which means, that if a non member state wishes to join NATO, there is no problem he can try, it does not mean he will succeed, but still everyone can apply to join NATO.

This is how NATO expands, because every member can join only by his free will to do so.

This is why NATO is so popular, nobody is forced to join it, contrary to former WarPac for example, where everyone was forced to join by SU. That's the big difference.
It sounds like something of cold war propaganda... everything is voluntary but in presence of invisible hand of GOD called America...
 

Damian

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Russia will bleed Ukraine white and that is what Russians want... The civil war will continue and the casualties will pile up on both sides... nor the Americans / Europeans have the money to support the Ukraine for this civil war...

As the civilian dead increases in Eastern Ukraine the more possibility of Russian intervention there... Russia will not tolerate indiscriminate bombing of civilians in eastern Ukraine and sit tight... what will Americans do then ???
Well you can believe in anything you want, sitting in India on the opposite part of the world, not understanding even single slavic language and trying to behave like a specialist on local affairs. ;)

But pro-russian comentators and analists here are very, very clear, separatists are loosing, Russians do nothing and cease support for separatists, Ukrainians have upper hand despite their own problems.

It sounds like something of cold war propaganda... everything is voluntary but in presence of invisible hand of GOD called America...
As I said, you can believe in whatever you wish, even in such nonsense as god or gods. The fact is however that to join NATO, you need to do it from your own free will. Of course NATO members can support you in this, but their support means nothing if a state that aspire to join NATO don't meet requirements and if not all or majority of members agree. These are facts.

Besides this I don't understand why NATO is sen by some as "the pure evil", because it is the most powerfull military alliance on this planet? ;)

To be honest, being in NATO is wonderfull, especially from military point of view. How much my own country Armed Forces changed in positive way after we joined NATO is hard to describe, and this is still only the beggining, can't wait to see future!

Oh and by the way, Ukraine itself try to tighten relationship with NATO, especially it's members that are close to Ukraine, like Poland and Lithuania, we are currently working to create a common brigade between these 3 nations, that can help to improve Ukrainian military capabilities by training it's soldiers that will pass their experience further to the rest of Ukrainian military.
 

HMS Astute

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Why only Russia ?? why not USA, Britain, France and other NATO countries ?? It can not be a one way traffic...
you do not realise the fact that russia has inferiority complex and it always make provocative actions. i doubt you would appreciate when the enemy's bombers and fighters flying near indian airspace and territory almost once every month. raf typhoons always have to intercept and escort those rusty russian jets when they provoke around nato airspace. its infact a cold war behaviour, but this has now become kind of a regular thing. russia cant be trusted as it supports illegitimate regimes like in syria, iran and other 3d world muslim countries that are the enemies of the west.

If you push Russia too hard then other countries such as India and China will stand by Russia... that will not be a good omen at all...
i highly doubt either china or india would want to team up with russia to have a conflict with nato on global stage. on top of that, china is not a genuine ally or friend of india especially when it comes to interventions and wars.
 

asianobserve

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It is true that there are huge business transactions between Russia and Western allies, but they are also for mutually beneficial to both sides... Ukraine and other ex Soviet republics too get cheap Russian gas..and Russia get the western technologies and services...
As what akim said earlier, Ukraine does not get cheap gas from Russia. Russia charges it almost twice what it charges Poland and overall Russian gas to Ukraine is more expensive than from other sources in Europe.

The Americans specially are not comfortable with strong emerging nations and still believes that Russia will rise to a strong nation... today it is Russia, tomorrow it can China, Brazil or India... USA never stops to spy on its close friends... There is a strong lobby in America that are not yet reconciled of post cold war era... they simply does not want to change... want to push Russia back to the wall.. the excuse can be many... make out a bad guy and go after it...
Unnecessary fear. That's what constant exposure to Russian sites give you. The fact is that every country looks for its own interest and America is no different. It is in every country's interest that it gets the best of every transaction or relationship it has with other country.The only thing that makes it different is that every body acknowledges that at the moment it is the strongest power in the World. That's why every action and every mistake it makes is magnified disproportionately, especially in the eyes of people that already have biases against America. You should look closer at the record of Russia...


All Ex Soviet republics that also include Ukraine have every right to be independent and determine its own destiny...
At least we agree on the fundamental ground rule.


what I would cation against putting themselves between the Russian and American fight as none [that also include Russia] have their own petty interests only... I always support Ukraine independent of Americans and Russians both...
Ukraine in this case only wanted to be closer economically to Europe... But what did Russia do?


Ex Soviet republics have to play a well balancing act to remain equidistant from both... we see the consequence these days...
Does balancing act means that there former Soviet Republics can no longer join associations like the EU that no doubt would benefit their people?


Can you tell me why do we need an expansion of NATO post cold war era ?
NATO was not expanding in Ukraine. Ukraine only wanted an association with the EU (EU is not NATO).
 

Damian

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Some info's.

Ukrainian military is close to B777 crash site, approx 2-3km. They also captured Torez and Shahtarsk. Info's from today.
 

bose

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Well you can believe in anything you want, sitting in India on the opposite part of the world, not understanding even single slavic language and trying to behave like a specialist on local affairs. ;)
One do not need to understand a slavic language to have an understanding of what is going on in that part of the world... nor one have to be present at the site Ukraine to know all complexities...

But pro-russian comentators and analists here are very, very clear, separatists are loosing, Russians do nothing and cease support for separatists, Ukrainians have upper hand despite their own problems.
Listen to what Stephen Cohen the American have to say about Ukraine... look out for the CNN interview...

Ukraine have made the mistake of being a running dog of Americans... now it they will pay in blood and territory...

As I said, you can believe in whatever you wish, even in such nonsense as god or gods. The fact is however that to join NATO, you need to do it from your own free will. Of course NATO members can support you in this, but their support means nothing if a state that aspire to join NATO don't meet requirements and if not all or majority of members agree. These are facts.

Besides this I don't understand why NATO is sen by some as "the pure evil", because it is the most powerfull military alliance on this planet? ;)

To be honest, being in NATO is wonderfull, especially from military point of view. How much my own country Armed Forces changed in positive way after we joined NATO is hard to describe, and this is still only the beggining, can't wait to see future!

Oh and by the way, Ukraine itself try to tighten relationship with NATO, especially it's members that are close to Ukraine, like Poland and Lithuania, we are currently working to create a common brigade between these 3 nations, that can help to improve Ukrainian military capabilities by training it's soldiers that will pass their experience further to the rest of Ukrainian military.
Bullshit propaganda ... Ukraine does not have the stomach to fight... see how their forces are surrendering to rebels... you can find them in this thread itself...
 

bose

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you do not realise the fact that russia has inferiority complex and it always make provocative actions. i doubt you would appreciate when the enemy's bombers and fighters flying near indian airspace and territory almost once every month. raf typhoons always have to intercept and escort those rusty russian jets when they provoke around nato airspace. its infact a cold war behaviour, but this has now become kind of a regular thing. russia cant be trusted as it supports illegitimate regimes like in syria, iran and other 3d world muslim countries that are the enemies of the west.
This is the attitude of Western Europe and Americans that is creating problems with Russians ... You have not yet accepted Russians as your equals...


i highly doubt either china or india would want to team up with russia to have a conflict with nato on global stage. on top of that, china is not a genuine ally or friend of india especially when it comes to interventions and wars.

As BRICS initiate all have come up with a step to create a Bank independent of American blackmail ?? Do you know the combined GDP of the BRICS country and their potential to grow bigger that Europe and America combined ?
 

asianobserve

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LOL :rofl:
really, please explain me how the BMD system by US in east europe isn't in cold war style?
That was against future Iranian BM capabilities. But then again, given Russian actions lately I guess the Americans was right after all in putting up BMD systems in Eastern Europe...


I must have been allucinating when I saw McCain in december 2013 in Maidan plaza instigating the conflict and giving US support to maidan protest, probably the estonian(one of the most anti-russian country) foreign minister was high meanwhile he was stating the presence of sniper provocateurs in Maidan protest. Or the polish that have pushed for Ukraine european integration since 2005.
McCain is just a big mouth American politician. Why the hang up with him by Russian supporters? He has no influence on the current administration that actually set American policy.


the fact of economic ties doesn't mean that baltic countries, Poland, UK and US politics are over the Russian fear.
But at least they were already willing to connect their umbilical chords to Russia (that's why they're having a hard time now sanctioning Russia). It was no mean feat given the fact that they were at each other's throat for over 50 years.
 

bose

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Some info's.

Ukrainian military is close to B777 crash site, approx 2-3km. They also captured Torez and Shahtarsk. Info's from today.
More bad news for Ukraine I would say...
 

Damian

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One do not need to understand a slavic language to have an understanding of what is going on in that part of the world... nor one have to be present at the site Ukraine to know all complexities...
Yeah right... one do not need to go to school to understand writed text as well, hmmm? ;)

Listen to what Stephen Cohen the American have to say about Ukraine... look out for the CNN interview...

Ukraine have made the mistake of being a running dog of Americans... now it they will pay in blood and territory...
There is a lot of people talking a lot of things. I prefer to make my own observations and conclusions, and they are very different from yours.

Bullshit propaganda ... Ukraine does not have the stomach to fight... see how their forces are surrendering to rebels... you can find them in this thread itself...
Yeah right, BS propagana from pro-russians themselfs talking a lot how separatists are loosing ground to Ukrainian military? :)

As I said, you don't know any of local language, so you are incapable to even get real informations. Which is kinda funny, to see how emotional you are, when opposite situation is described to what you actually believe in.

More bad news for Ukraine I would say...
Interesting way of thinking, so if Ukraine win battles, take ground from separatists, they loose? :)
 

Damian

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That was against future Iranian BM capabilities. But then again, given Russian actions lately I guess the Americans was right after all in putting up BMD systems in Eastern Europe...
And we are more than happy to have them here. Investition in to building base for "Aegis Ashore" system in Redzikowo are moving forward.

But at least they were already willing to connect their umbilical chords to Russia (that's why they're having a hard time now sanctioning Russia). It was no mean feat given the fact that they were at each other's throat for over 50 years.
Actually the fact is tha everyone in the region was preaty happy that economic relations also with Russia could grow. It is actually completely beyond understanding of a sane person, why for hell Russians risked all this for a useless peninsula and to stop Ukraine from tightening relationships with EU. Especially that EU was not very anti-Russian, and was more concerned about economic relations than anything else.

Pure stupidity if you ask me.
 

asianobserve

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It seems that the Russians are losing their Ukrainian compatriots in rebels areas. No wonder they're having a hard time recruiting volunteers, hence more and more the rebels are already Russians from Russia...

Pushing Locals Aside, Russians Take Top Rebel Posts in East Ukraine


Vladimir Antyufeyev, deputy prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, listens during an interview with a Reuters journalist in Donetsk July 25, 2014.

(Reuters) - As Ukrainian troops gained ground in eastern Ukraine in early July, separatist leader, Aleksander Borodai, a Russian national, left for Moscow for political consultations.

After what he described as successful talks with unnamed people there, he returned to the rebel stronghold of Donetsk to introduce a new senior figure in his self-proclaimed republic, a compatriot seasoned in the pro-Russian separatist movement in Moldova and a war between Russia and Georgia.

Vladimir Antyufeyev was named "deputy prime minister" by Borodai on July 10, one of several native Russians to have taken charge of the separatist rebellion in Ukraine's eastern regions.

Joining Borodai and rebel commander Igor Strelkov, Antyufeyev's arrival underlines a change at the top of the separatist movement, highlighting Moscow's involvement in the conflict, Western officials say. The Kremlin denies any involvement.

"There has been a dramatic change in the leadership of the Donetsk People's Republic over the past weeks, which certainly gives the impression of a much more hands-on Russian directive role," said Geoffrey Pyatt, the U.S. Ambassador to Kiev. "These individuals are in regular touch with authorities in Russia."

Ukrainian-born rebel leaders have been eased out, causing rifts among increasingly nervous separatists since a Malaysian airliner was downed over rebel-held territory just over a week ago.

Antyufeyev replaced Donetsk native, Alexander Khodakovsky, as the top security person in the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic. Denis Pushilin, another local once titled the republic's president, was dismissed.

Khodakovsky remains a top commander but has taken an increasingly independent line, telling Reuters that separatists had the type of anti-aircraft missile system that Washington says brought the plane down, killing all 298 people on board. Borodai denied this assertion.

A Ukrainian official in the southern Azov Sea city port of Mariupol, which Kiev reclaimed from rebels last month, said Russians were taking over the entire rebel operation, sidelining or removing locals.

ANTYUFEYEV AKA SHEVTSOV

Antyufeyev, also known as Vadim Shevtsov, has a history of supporting pro-Russian separatist movements in the former Soviet Union, and brings a tough discipline and doggedness to the campaign in eastern Ukraine.

The balding, 63-year-old says he "fought national fascism" by supporting separatists in the pro-Russian region of Transdniestria in neighboring Moldova, and in the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia.

At his new office at the separatists' Donetsk headquarters, the Siberian-born Antyufeyev said he came to Ukraine because Russians were being killed by forces sent from Kiev.

"I know what it is to fight for the rights of the people ... I know what hot spots are," he said in an interview. A picture of Russian President Vladimir Putin looked down on the table where he sat.

Asked whether there were divisions among the rebels, Antyufeyev said: "I am the authority. I have no problems... If they do not understand that, that's their problem. I am a professional in making (people) understand."

He earned a fearsome reputation when he served in Transdniestria, which split from Moldova in 1990, as the head of security operations for 20 years.

Dismissed in 2012 when his ally was replaced as leader of the tiny sliver of land, he barricaded himself for three days in his study and refused to leave.

The EU first blacklisted Antyufeyev over his role in Transdniestria in 2004. Though it later suspended that decision, it has now blacklisted him again over Ukraine, imposing assets freezes and a travel ban on him.

One person who had been questioned by Antyufeyev in Transdniestria on suspicion of spying for Moldova said he was a tenacious interrogator. Speaking on condition of anonymity, for fear of reprisal, the person said Antyufeyev was "a professional", capable of being sociable and polite, always rigidly following the chosen line. With a smile on his face, Antyufeyev would exert moral pressure, the person said.

Oazu Nantoi, a Moldovan political analyst and expert on Transdniestria, predicted Antyufeyev would aim to further destabilize Donetsk and impede Kiev's efforts to regain control.

"He is no romantic who came to fire a few shots. He knows what his tasks are. Just as he did in Transdniestria," he said. "Antyufeyev knows how to operate in such situations, how to suppress opposition and dissent... create an atmosphere of fear in which people will support any action by the separatists."

BORODAI'S FRIENDS

Washington says the influx of Russians into the upper ranks of the separatists is matched by an increased number of heavy weaponry coming across the Russian border into Ukraine, a response to advances made by the Ukrainian army on the ground.

Though Borodai insists the separatists' weaponry comes from depots they overran while seizing territory, he admits "volunteers" from Russia keep on reinforcing the rebels' ranks.

He calls his Russian trio volunteers and says their presence in the Donetsk region, or Donbass, is proof of the Russian nation's support for the separatists' cause.

"The people of Donbass rose on their own. It is normal and natural that we ended up heading this movement because of certain competences, our abilities," he told a news conference in Donetsk earlier this month.

"There will be more and more people from Moscow in the DNR (Donetsk People's Republic)," said Borodai, flanked by Strelkov and Antyufeyev.

The stout Borodai denies having ever worked for the Russian security services though admits knowing many people there because of his past work as a "professional political expert."

He and Strelkov say they first met in 1996 in the Russian region of Chechnya, where Moscow has waged two wars against Islamist separatists since 1994. Borodai says Strelkov has long been his "very good acquaintance".

Both said they served in Transdniestria and, more recently, in Crimea. The West says they were aides to the pro-Russian separatist leader of the Black Sea peninsula who was instrumental in Moscow's annexation earlier this year.

The two are on both the EU and U.S. sanctions list. Kiev and the European Union say Strelkov, whose real name is Igor Girkin, in fact served in Russia's GRU military intelligence.

Strelkov says he served at the rank of colonel in Russia's FSB security service until quitting at the end of March, and has had battlefield experience in Transdniestria, in Bosnia's conflict and in both Chechen wars.

While he commanded rebel forces in Slaviansk, the town became a citadel of fierce resistance where at least two Ukrainian military helicopters and one warplane were brought down, giving him a hero status among separatists.

Abandoning Slaviansk to Kiev's troops on July 4-5 has, however, dented his reputation and upset some rebels.

Strelkov's acquaintances and former colleagues say he developed a reputation as an uncompromising idealist while with the FSB, though his "difficult" character may have been behind what they say was in fact his dismissal from the service.

They say the ouster of Ukraine's former, Moscow-allied president Viktor Yanukovich and Kiev's pivot to the West was a turning point for him.

An acquaintance in Moscow, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity, said Strelkov was outraged by the events in Kiev and believed Russia must not lose Ukraine. The acquaintance added that Strelkov knew Borodai in Moscow and the two helped one another in business.


Pushing locals aside, Russians take top rebel posts in east Ukraine | Reuters

So expect more and more the truth about the downing of MH17 to come out from the Ukrainian rebels that are being edged out...
 

Damian

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Some more news from reliable pro russian source.

Georgievka captured by Ukrainian military, Lugansk is under complete siege. Separatists lost today 8 tanks and also BMP's and BTR's.

Ukrainian military is performing offensive actions from north, south and west.
 

asianobserve

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The Republic of Donetsk:

Prime MInister - Aleksander Borodai (Russian FSB)
Deputy Prime Minister - Vladimir Antyufeyev (Russian operator in Georgia and Moldova)
Minister of Defence - (Russian FSB/GRU)
 

bose

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As what akim said earlier, Ukraine does not get cheap gas from Russia. Russia charges it almost twice what it charges Poland and overall Russian gas to Ukraine is more expensive than from other sources in Europe.
Another topic for debate... If that was true Ukraine would have already gone out from taking Russian gas...

Unnecessary fear. That's what constant exposure to Russian sites give you. The fact is that every country looks for its own interest and America is no different. It is in every country's interest that it gets the best of every transaction or relationship it has with other country.The only thing that makes it different is that every body acknowledges that at the moment it is the strongest power in the World. That's why every action and every mistake it makes is magnified disproportionately, especially in the eyes of people that already have biases against America. You should look closer at the record of Russia...
Believe it or not, I do not see any Russian TV or read their news site, rather I am more exposed to CNN and Fox... I am not here to defend Russia and believe in equal distance from both Russia and America...

Regarding American Bias:

Have you seen the pictures of the half burned naked Vietnamese women wanting to survive and gasping for life after the American nerve gas attack ??

Have seen what has happened in IRAQ ?? In Libya ? Syria ??

It is the same Americans who shot down a Iranian civilian aircraft and their conduct there after was appalling ...

That gives a reasons to hate Americans even for those who comes from a far right family background...

At least we agree on the fundamental ground rule.
Good to know...


Ukraine in this case only wanted to be closer economically to Europe... But what did Russia do?
There is no issue with having a close economic association with Europe and even Russia wants the same...Ukraine is playing on Russian fears and here lies the problem...

Does balancing act means that there former Soviet Republics can no longer join associations like the EU that no doubt would benefit their people?
Not at all..

NATO was not expanding in Ukraine. Ukraine only wanted an association with the EU (EU is not NATO).
Poland joined NATO in the past... there was an understanding that Americans to not poach on ex Soviet republics and they have gone back on it... so the fear is Ukraine will do the same as Poland in very near future... This is the Russian fear... rightly or wrongly... one should not exploit one's security concerns that leads to what we see in Ukraine...
 
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