Civil war in Ukraine

[jouni]

I am sorry to say, your knowledge of European history is less than perfect. I have written about the role of Poles, Jews, and Galicians, and their alliances, during WWI. Yes, the Jews of Galicia have long been allied with the Galician Nazis, following Polish pogroms against the Jews in Lvov.

Maybe Ukraine will become the Israel of Europe. A jew state. Or even a jew-nazi state, where jews and nazis live side by side. Finally putting WWII disagreements behind them.

 

[Cadian]

Maybe Ukraine will become the Israel of Europe. A jew state. Or even a jew-nazi state, where jews and nazis live side by side. Finally putting WWII disagreements behind them.

And making Holocaust of Russians together. What a wonderful picture.

 

[pmaitra]

And making Holocaust of Russians together. What a wonderful picture.

They won't be able to do that against the Russians, because the Russians know how to fight back. In all likelihood, the Galician Nazis will turn on their Jewish compatriots.

 

[jouni]

And making Holocaust of Russians together. What a wonderful picture.

Do not worry, this crisis will go away. I already see quiet signs in Russia about that. In few years EU/ RUS relations will be good again. Hopefully also UKR/RUS relations.

 

[Cadian]

Do not worry, this crisis will go away. I already see quiet signs in Russia about that. In few years EU/ RUS relations will be good again. Hopefully also UKR/RUS relations.

And I only see signs of preparations for a greater war.

 

[jouni]

And I only see signs of preparations for a greater war.

New generation is growing in both Russia and Ukraine. They want to live in peaceful and developing countries. Even if now they are kept quiet with iron grip, that will not last. It may take two years, or five years, but they will not allow Russia to miss another decade like in the nineties. All the signs are there if you look carefully.

 

[Gabriel92]

And I only see signs of preparations for a greater war.

The retarded person called Putin is capable of everything.
I hope one day we will deliver you from him and others that are stealing your country.

 

[Cadian]

The retarded person called Putin is capable of everything.
I hope one day we will deliver you from him and others that are stealing your country.

Pardon moi, that was your "liberalization" and "democratization" that created a class of oligarchs and corrupt bureaucrats that are stealing our country. They keep their money in Western banks, they keep their families in Western countries and they have real estate there too. If West wanted, it could put an end to our "corruption" in one day.

Putin is a man who keeps the oligarchs at bay. He also makes them pay money to budget and participate in strategic infrastructure projects. That's not a complete solution of oligarchic problem, but makes sense.

I have voted for Mr. Putin in 2012, and I will do it again if he wishes to go one more time.

 

[Cadian]

New generation is growing in both Russia and Ukraine. They want to live in peaceful and developing countries. Even if now they are kept quiet with iron grip, that will not last. It may take two years, or five years, but they will not allow Russia to miss another decade like in the nineties. All the signs are there if you look carefully.

A new freaking generation of young people in Ukraine is growing up with complete understanding, that Russia is essential enemy of Ukraine and the only obstacle to European happiness. They are growing up in hatred to everything Russian and when they'll grow up, they will be very good, motivated and cheap infantry for another Western crusade against Russia. That is what my opinion is.

 

[Gabriel92]

@Cadian

Why do Russians love so much Putin ? (it's not a mutual "love" i guess.)

 

[jouni]

A new freaking generation of young people in Ukraine is growing up with complete understanding, that Russia is essential enemy of Ukraine and the only obstacle to European happiness. They are growing up in hatred to everything Russian and when they'll grow up, they will be very good, motivated and cheap infantry for another Western crusade against Russia. That is what my opinion is.

After Russian attack to east Ukraine, what else there is? Hate does not last, in right circumstances trust can be built again. You believe too much Russian billion dollar propaganda machine. I do not blame you, your country in in difficult situation. You are in crossroads, stagnate to third world country or built the lost trust again and join Europe which is your rightful place. Imagine what five years in isolation would do to Russia?

 

[Cadian]

@Cadian

Why do Russians love so much Putin ? (it's not a mutual "love" i guess.)

Simple. Because he deserves.

Recovery from the disaster of 90-th was under his presidency and with his efforts, so people felt wealthy and protected. He may not be ideal, but we appreciate what he has done for the country.

If the West is so angry of Putin in power, it just adds points, because shows his independence from these hypocritical well-wishers.

 

[jouni]

Simple. Because he deserves.

Recovery from the disaster of 90-th was under his presidency and with his efforts, so people felt wealthy and protected. He may not be ideal, but we appreciate what he has done for the country.

If the West is so angry of Putin in power, it just adds points, because shows his independence from these hypocritical well-wishers.

He was helped with oil price rising from 30 to 120 dollars. Now he is truly measured when times are tough. I also liked that he brought law and order to Russia. Of course nowadays for every investment dollar at least fifty cents goes to corruption, that cannot last. Who ever follows Putin must take the next step...and that is a monumental task.

 

[Cadian]

After Russian attack to east Ukraine, what else there is? Hate does not last, in right circumstances trust can be built again. You believe too much Russian billion dollar propaganda machine. I do not blame you, your country in in difficult situation. You are in crossroads, stagnate to third world country or built the lost trust again and join Europe which is your rightful place. Imagine what five years in isolation would do to Russia?

Russian attack, yeah. Let's forget about everything that has led to the conflict and say that it was a Russian aggression. Let's blame everyone who is against new Ukrainian government as victims of Putin's propaganda.

Don't even try to Eurobullshit Russians, we have already seen how Ukrainians were fooled with it.

 

[Gabriel92]

Simple. Because he deserves.

Recovery from the disaster of 90-th was under his presidency and with his efforts, so people felt wealthy and protected. He may not be ideal, but we appreciate what he has done for the country.

If the West is so angry of Putin in power, it just adds points, because shows his independence from these hypocritical well-wishers.

The rise of oil price was the reason behind Russia's economic revival. Putin had hardly anything to do with it. The Russian's could have had a dead monkey as president and still the economy would have grown etc... that's it.
So,if Putin dies tomorrow,Russia will fall ?

 

[Vlaad]

The rise of oil price was the reason behind Russia's economic revival. Putin had hardly anything to do with it. The Russian's could have had a dead monkey as president and still the economy would have grown etc... that's it.
So,if Putin dies tomorrow,Russia will fall ?

And here we see in action evolutionary process where some people started mating with wild berries thus giving existence to entities who are further able to produce such moments of absolute radiant brilliance as this statement above.

Market oil prices went up therefore worlds biggest country's economy fixed itself. Right. You see, unlike you I will not insult entire nation. However I am obliged to deduce if we left a monkey with a keyboard it would be able to produce more coherent and logical statement than yourself.

@OP

Original article is from serious newspaper "Политика" (Politic), home of excellent analysts. I apologise, some of translation will be lost due my limited time to translate and usage of automatic translation but it should be readable. Article deals with Ukraine and its more often contradictory struggles between past and future as well as complex process at work in divided Ukraine society. I found its views interesting and thought that it may be a good read fore more serious members.

Ukraine war for past without Russia

Poroshenkio will be signing the laws "de-sovietization" allow arrest of anyone who does not agree that Hitler and Stalin were equally responsible for the war and that communism and Nazism are equally evil.

In Ukraine it is expected that only president Petro Poroshenko put his signature on the set of laws on "decommunisation", which was recently passed by the parliament, so that they can sentence of five to ten years to punish every citizen who is manifested differently vision of Ukrainian history of the now official stance that communism and Nazism as bad.

In addition to prohibiting the production, dissemination and public use of their symbols (communist from 1917 to 1991 and 1939 to the Nazi 1945), as well as "any public denial of the criminal character of the" Communist and Nazi regimes, new legal practice involves opening the archives of the former KGB , replacing the Russian term "Great Patriotic War" European "Second World War", and ensure that public recognition to everyone who fought for Ukraine's independence in the 20th century.

How deep divisions is and how different views of history illustration of the fact that Russia and Ukraine this year will mark the anniversary together the end of World War II, because Kiev with its parade on May 8 to mark Remembrance Day and Armistice. Common Russian-Ukrainian, laying wreaths will be in Vienna at the central cemetery and monument to soldiers of the former Soviet Union. This year, just after Moscow sent invitations to world leaders to celebrate the Victory Day is always celebrated on May 9, Ukraine has decided to cultural and protocol program, in which she called on world leaders, radnije day celebrates the role of Ukraine in World War II and completion is falling, as they say, at 23.10 hours.

Porosenko will for that to his signature on the four new laws to legitimize his own thesis that Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin equally responsible for the start of the Second World War. In fact, on the day when the Ukrainian parliament (April 9th) adopted this law, Poroshenko said: "Hitler, along with Stalin initiated a bloody battle, and then they tried to divide and divide Europe."

If someone this statement sounds outrageous, it does not follow political trends. In the past twenty years, since these processes are started in the former Soviet republics, the Baltic countries, and then in Poland, with like-minded people from the US, the EU are working on a political union decided to wipe out by the Second World War and its own national past. This led to comparisons with the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and communism is equated with Nazism. As Russia is the successor of the USSR, the road leads to the simple conclusion that the Russians bear the same blame for the war.

On the "discovery" of the Ukrainian president has previously worked officials in Brussels, the European Parliament adopted several resolutions which equate the crimes of communism and Nazism. After the adoption of the resolution by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in January 2006. "On the Need for international condemnation of crimes of totalitarian communist regimes", the Prague Declaration of 2008, which refers to "expose the crimes of the communist regimes of Eastern Europe, victims' compensation and security measures that are more does not happen again, "at the European Parliament in April 2009, adopted a resolution on European conscience and totalitarianism, and established the Remembrance Day for the victims of all totalitarian and authoritarian regimes: fascism and communism.

What is the role of the US in the equalization of guilt can be seen through the recent decision of the UN Security Council, when the proposal of Moscow in late November last year in New York voted on the resolution against the glorification of Nazism.

Against the resolution, which expresses serious concern over the rise of extremist movements and political parties that promote racism, ethnocentrism and xenophobia, which deal with the spread of the ideology of fascism and racial superiority, voted in favor of the United States, Canada and Ukraine. Among the 115 UN member states that have supported the adoption of this resolution was neither a member of the EU and Serbia was the only country in the region that has voted for a resolution that, among other things, "condemns the glorification of the Nazi movement and former members of the organization 'Waffen-SS' opening monuments and memorials and holding public demonstrations glorifying the Nazi past, movement and neo-Nazism ".

From Brussels then came the explanation that this resolution understood as an attempt to Moscow abuse "attempt to combat neo-Nazism in the context of the crisis in Ukraine".

Russia is on the adoption of Ukrainian law on "desovjetizaciji" accused Kiev to "rewrite history" and use "real totalitarian methods". President Vladimir Putin recently in a show where he answered questions from citizens commented on this topic and said that it is impossible to equate Nazism and Stalinism. "Because the Nazis directly, openly and publicly declared one of the goals of its policy extermination of Jews, Gypsies and Slavs. Try to equalize without merit, "explained Putin.

Journalist British "Guardian", who wrote about this subject, states that one of the laws dealing with "legal status and giving honors veterans for Ukrainian independence in the 20th century," and that means a long list of individuals and organizations for human rights activists to the guerrillas accused of ethnic cleansing. This would allow veterans of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, followers of Stephen Bandera, to receive state benefits, a new law that punishes the denial or disregard of their role in the struggle for Ukrainian independence constitute unlawful "desecration of memories," the newspaper wrote.

It also notes that even a cursory knowledge of the role of Bandera and two former army reveal how the issue was their role - not only for Ukraine and Russia, but also in Europe, especially Poland, therefore, all current allies of Ukraine against Russia.

Today in the fight against rebel citizens of eastern Ukraine of its members called themselves followers of Bandera. Russia "banderovce", and those from the Second World War and the present one, as Nazis. "Banderovci" fought against Soviet partisans and the Red Army, but also Poles who regard them as criminals because of the slaughter of nearly 100,000 Poles and Jews in 1943 and 1944. When in 2007 in Lviv, a monument to Bandera, the Polish minority in Ukraine is to assess as a provocation. Former President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko in 2010 Bandera awarded the title of Hero, a decision was subsequently overturned following President Viktor Yanukovych.

A Ukrainian historian noted that the history of Ukraine, unfortunately, so contradictory that he could be a stabilizing factor. "While the country is fighting for his future, war is being waged in order to regain their past," concluded the Ukrainian.

 

[Cadian]

He was helped with oil price rising from 30 to 120 dollars. Now he is truly measured when times are tough. I also liked that he brought law and order to Russia. Of course nowadays for every investment dollar at least fifty cents goes to corruption, that cannot last. Who ever follows Putin must take the next step...and that is a monumental task.

The rise of oil price was the reason behind Russia's economic revival. Putin had hardly anything to do with it. The Russian's could have had a dead monkey as president and still the economy would have grown etc... that's it.
So,if Putin dies tomorrow,Russia will fall ?

Hahaha, lol. How many oil-exporting countries had similar growth in past decade? Putin's achievement - he made this super-profit go to budget and the National fund, not into oligarchs' or foreign corporations' pockets. It really can't be overestimated.

If Putin dies tomorrow, Russia will not fall, and Ukraine will not get immediate prosperity, and Western hostility will not disappear. Don't be stupid, personification of current Western problems in relations with Russia only in Putin is a wrong way.

 

[Gabriel92]

He was helped with oil price rising from 30 to 120 dollars. Now he is truly measured when times are tough. I also liked that he brought law and order to Russia. Of course nowadays for every investment dollar at least fifty cents goes to corruption, that cannot last. Who ever follows Putin must take the next step...and that is a monumental task.

Russia's $9.4B road to Sochi latest in long line of Olympic boondoggles | Fox News

Nemstov claimed ""They may as well have paved it in platinum or caviar,"

 

[jouni]

Hahaha, lol. How many oil-exporting countries had similar growth in past decade? Putin's achievement - he made this super-profit go to budget and the National fund, not into oligarchs' or foreign corporations' pockets. It really can't be overestimated.

If Putin dies tomorrow, Russia will not fall, and Ukraine will not get immediate prosperity, and Western hostility will not disappear. Don't be stupid, personification of current Western problems in relations with Russia only in Putin is a wrong way.

Well Norway is not doing too bad with their oil wealth. Our Finance guys must scrstch their heads, whether to follow our eastern neighbor, or our western neighbor example in wealth management....


The fund is managed by Norges Bank Investment Management (NBIM), a part of the Norwegian Central Bank on behalf of the Ministry of Finance. It is currently the largest pension fund in Europe and is larger than the California public-employees pension fund (CalPERS), one of the largest public pension funds in the United States. The Norwegian Ministry of Finance forecasts that the fund will reach NOK 4.3 trillion ($717 billion) by the end of 2014 and NOK 6 trillion ($1 trillion) by the end of 2019.[4] In a parliamentary white paper in April 2011 the Norwegian Ministry of Finance forecast that the 2030 value of the fund would be NOK 7.4 trillion ($1.3 trillion). A worst-case scenario for the fund value in 2030 was forecast at NOK 2.7 trillion ($455 billion) and a best case scenario at NOK 19.6 trillion ($3.3 trillion
Government Pension Fund of Norway - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Gabriel92]

All that money that Putin has put on military could have been spent on improving the country's bad infrastructure (Even congo's infrastructure look almost better) for example. But no, Putin doesn't give a flying fck about ordinary Russians. (Just like you @Cadian ) All he cares is his own power. Hopefully Russians will realize that . (Which will never happen in even hundred years)
Slava Rassiy the land of Tsars bla bla bla.