Civil war in Ukraine

[Prometheus]

I do not see this as a Slav vs west issue. I see this as an democracy issue, where majority of Ukrainians want to steer their nation ship towards legality and get rid of corruption and oligarchy rule of their country. Russia does not want to see democratic and corruption free Ukraine. That would set a wrong example to Russian people. All this "nationalism, slav etc" are just a smokescreen.

@jouni you are either a victim/ product of US propaganda! or Loki himself!

 

[Vlaad]

I do not see this as a Slav vs west issue. I see this as an democracy issue, where majority of Ukrainians want to steer their nation ship towards legality and get rid of corruption and oligarchy rule of their country. Russia does not want to see democratic and corruption free Ukraine. That would set a wrong example to Russian people. All this "nationalism, slav etc" are just a smokescreen.

Dude, your like a BS machine.

Who's steering that ship now? Yes Porky is an oligarch and Ukraine now has private oligarch armies & nationalists battalions paid by oligarchs. I don't remember Russia supporting those figures, US does.
Oh and oligarchs as a social class were created by capitalism and gained life in corrupt privatizations of state owned goods (factories, firms etc) in transitions to western social model.

"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion (to which few members of other civilizations were converted) but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do."

The Clash of Civilizations

Samuel P. Huntington

 

[jouni]

@Vlaad, @sgarg, @Cadian, @Prometheus

I guess my biggest problem is that I am a Finn. I can everyday compare what Democracy did to Finland and what Socialism/ Authoritarian Nationalism/ Oligarchy rule did to Russia/Ukraine. Of course Ukraine has a long way to go, Russia is doing all she can to "rock the boat", oligarchs and corruption run wild in Ukraine. They have opened the door nonetheless, they have shown that they want some day to be mentioned in the same sentence as Germany, Poland and Lithuania for example A European country with civil rights and civil society. That day is long way ahead, maybe in 20 years we will see significant change, same it took for Poland without war to think about.

Maybe I am an Idealist, but I think it is worth fighting for to have those virtues that we in Nordic countries take for granted, even if they are not. We had our own fights decades ago, lot of blood was spillt... but looking back it was all worth it. Our children deserved what they have today.

 

[sgarg]

@jouni, Ukraine cannot be Finland. It is simply impossible.

Ukraine has ethnic and cultural connections to Russia, and this is where it will find peace and happiness.

 

[Khagesh]

@Vlaad, @sgarg, @Cadian, @Prometheus

I guess my biggest problem is that I am a Finn. I can everyday compare what Democracy did to Finland and what Socialism/ Authoritarian Nationalism/ Oligarchy rule did to Russia/Ukraine. Of course Ukraine has a long way to go, Russia is doing all she can to "rock the boat", oligarchs and corruption run wild in Ukraine. They have opened the door nonetheless, they have shown that they want some day to be mentioned in the same sentence as Germany, Poland and Lithuania for example A European country with civil rights and civil society. That day is long way ahead, maybe in 20 years we will see significant change, same it took for Poland without war to think about.

Maybe I am an Idealist, but I think it is worth fighting for to have those virtues that we in Nordic countries take for granted, even if they are not. We had our own fights decades ago, lot of blood was spillt... but looking back it was all worth it. Our children deserved what they have today.

Ask your kids who have to live under 5-10 times the debt that a Russian kid has on his head. And all so your kids could finance your profligacy. And the tough thing is that in future almost the whole of Asia will be competing against your kids and then your kids will have to bury their own kids under even more loans. Does not sound nice to me. But then a father being cruel to his kids is really a Western thing so I guess you must be ok with it. After all you simply need to have your lifestyle!

I think you are mistaken if you feel that Russia and Finland differ in terms of corruption. You Finns or for that matter other westerners have merely postponed your own helplessness and so can afford to come to the party with a powdered wig, all chikna and dandy. But this suave existence is only good for trapping the girl. Once in bed even the suave chikna has to perform and that is where the Russians win over all of you Westerners. You people have only underhand sanctioning and blackwatered special ops to turn to when you are in trouble (which is almost always).

 

[jouni]

@jouni, Ukraine cannot be Finland. It is simply impossible.

Ukraine has ethnic and cultural connections to Russia, and this is where it will find peace and happiness.

I do not want Ukraine to be Finland, I want Ukraine to be Ukraine with Finnish standard of living and rule of law. I hope the same for Russia also, they have the natural resources and human resources to succeed. Only thing missing for the last centuries have been political leadership. Countries have always been robbed by the rulers, like now one of Russia's richest men are old Putin judo mates from his youth. Just like those close to power in the nineties robbed the country... and communists before that.

You cannot blame west for these problems, they are of domestic origin.

 

[sorcerer]

Russia Grabs American Gear In Ukraine
March 27, 2015

The Russians have captured an American ground radar in Ukraine. In November 2014 the United States flew in the first three (of twenty) AN/TPQ-48 portable (69 kg/150 pounds) mortar spotting radars, along with American personnel to quickly train Ukrainian troops on how to use it. With a range of 6,000 meters these radars and their computers can quickly locate where the mortars firing shells are as soon as the radar spots the shells in flight. Some of these radars were in sent to eastern Ukraine by the end of 2015 where Ukrainian troops were facing Russian backed rebels as well as Russian troops. In late January 2015 the Russians broke the ceasefire and launched another offensive. Ukrainian troops were forced back in some areas and the Russians claimed to have captured one of the AN/TPQ-48 systems and publicized the incident.


Russia Grabs American Gear In Ukraine

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Just saying, Russian are basically Fins by DNA ?

 

[jouni]

Ask your kids who have to live under 5-10 times the debt that a Russian kid has on his head. And all so your kids could finance your profligacy. And the tough thing is that in future almost the whole of Asia will be competing against your kids and then your kids will have to bury their own kids under even more loans. Does not sound nice to me. But then a father being cruel to his kids is really a Western thing so I guess you must be ok with it. After all you simply need to have your lifestyle!

I think you are mistaken if you feel that Russia and Finland differ in terms of corruption. You Finns or for that matter other westerners have merely postponed your own helplessness and so can afford to come to the party with a powdered wig, all chikna and dandy. But this suave existence is only good for trapping the girl. Once in bed even the suave chikna has to perform and that is where the Russians win over all of you Westerners. You people have only underhand sanctioning and blackwatered special ops to turn to when you are in trouble (which is almost always).

Oh yes, the debt. If I want to renovate my house in Finland, I can have bank loan with 20 years pay back at 2% interest ( I have 0.55%, made a good deal ) I do not have to pay any bribes for officials, corruption will not take a share of my budget. In Russia the interest rate is 19%, city planning officer takes bribes and renovation company is corrupt...

The debt is good, if you have assets to back it up, like "western countries" have.

 

[jouni]

Just saying, Russian are basically Fins by DNA ?

Yes, they are! This is from another thread:

Large Russian survey:

"Russians are not Slavs, but Russian speaking Finns"

Лицо русской национальности, или крах популярной расологии

Russian scientists have for the first time in the history of research conducted unheard Russian gene pool - and were shocked by the results. Including this study fully confirmed expressed in our articles "Country Moksel» (№14) and "non-Russian Russian language» (№12) thought that the Russian - is not Slavs, but only Russian-speaking Finns. "Russian scientists have completed and prepared for publication of the first large-scale study of the gene pool of the Russian people. Publication of the results can have unpredictable consequences for Russia and the world order "

 

[Cadian]

@Vlaad, @sgarg, @Cadian, @Prometheus

I guess my biggest problem is that I am a Finn. I can everyday compare what Democracy did to Finland and what Socialism/ Authoritarian Nationalism/ Oligarchy rule did to Russia/Ukraine. Of course Ukraine has a long way to go, Russia is doing all she can to "rock the boat", oligarchs and corruption run wild in Ukraine. They have opened the door nonetheless, they have shown that they want some day to be mentioned in the same sentence as Germany, Poland and Lithuania for example A European country with civil rights and civil society. That day is long way ahead, maybe in 20 years we will see significant change, same it took for Poland without war to think about.

Maybe I am an Idealist, but I think it is worth fighting for to have those virtues that we in Nordic countries take for granted, even if they are not. We had our own fights decades ago, lot of blood was spillt... but looking back it was all worth it. Our children deserved what they have today.

Finnish-centric picture of the world is so much cute. Finnish nationalism is even more delightful and enchanting.

Dude, it's all very good, but the grim reality is much more complicated and often can't be described by analogy from Finnish history or Finnish national myths.

If you are looking on the world through a stained-glass where democratic ponies shitting human rights rainbows, than it's your right, but my right is not taking you speeches seriously.

1) Both Maidans were undemocratic, where the will of minority was enforced on the majority. On the second one it was enforced with heavy artillery. All pro-Russian parties are banned, total censorship in mass-media, spy-mania and militarization of whole society. What the democracy are you talking about?
2) US have brokered a "change of power" in Kiev, US officials discuss the composition of the government and it becomes as they wish, conflicts of most powerful people in Ukraine are resolved by a single call from US embassy, IMF enslaved country's financial system and enforces wild changes to budget. Foreign citizens, members of totalitarian sects, known CIA agents and other professional friends of America in government. What the independence are you talking about?
3) Kiev is trying to break all ties with Russia, and suffers enormous economic damage from it, while Europe can't and won't replace these losses. Most hi-tech, hi-value heavy industries on revenue from which the country has lived so far are now bankrupt. What the prosperity are you talking about?

No democracy. No freedom. No law and order. No independence. No prosperity. No future.

But you can continue dreaming, that's not forbidden.

 

[jouni]

Finnish-centric picture of the world is so much cute. Finnish nationalism is even more delightful and enchanting.

Dude, it's all very good, but the grim reality is much more complicated and often can't be described by analogy from Finnish history or Finnish national myths.

If you are looking on the world through a stained-glass where democratic ponies shitting human rights rainbows, than it's your right, but my right is not taking you speeches seriously.

1) Both Maidans were undemocratic, where the will of minority was enforced on the majority. On the second one it was enforced with heavy artillery. All pro-Russian parties are banned, total censorship in mass-media, spy-mania and militarization of whole society. What the democracy are you talking about? Yes, revolutions are always difficult, when Finland got independence, pro Russian fractions were suppressed. The point is that AFTER revolution you have to be able to build a country that is clearly better FOR ALL CITIZENS that what was before. It is yet to be decided if Ukraine can do that.
2) US have brokered a "change of power" in Kiev, US officials discuss the composition of the government and it becomes as they wish, conflicts of most powerful people in Ukraine are resolved by a single call from US embassy, IMF enslaved country's financial system and enforces wild changes to budget. Foreign citizens, members of totalitarian sects, known CIA agents and other professional friends of America in government. What the independence are you talking about? Yes, If Ukraine wants support from IMF and others, it has to play be their rules. The same for any other country.
3) Kiev is trying to break all ties with Russia, and suffers enormous economic damage from it, while Europe can't and won't replace these losses. Most hi-tech, hi-value heavy industries on revenue from which the country has lived so far are now bankrupt. What the prosperity are you talking about?After Russian backed war in east Ukraine, what else do you expect? When Stalin brought troops to Finland with the pretext of "protecting Finnish working class" did Finns fall for that propaganda and welcome them with flowers? The same is with Ukraine. After this crisis I want Ukraine to develop like Finland: Good relations to both east and west. If they can do it remains to be seen. You play down too much this Russian use of force, IMF did not bring smersh and uragan and T-72s with them

No democracy. No freedom. No law and order. No independence. No prosperity. No future.

But you can continue dreaming, that's not forbidden.

Answers are embedded

 

[Khagesh]

Yes, they are! This is from another thread:

Large Russian survey:

"Russians are not Slavs, but Russian speaking Finns"

Лицо русской национальности, или крах популярной расологии

Russian scientists have for the first time in the history of research conducted unheard Russian gene pool - and were shocked by the results. Including this study fully confirmed expressed in our articles "Country Moksel» (№14) and "non-Russian Russian language» (№12) thought that the Russian - is not Slavs, but only Russian-speaking Finns. "Russian scientists have completed and prepared for publication of the first large-scale study of the gene pool of the Russian people. Publication of the results can have unpredictable consequences for Russia and the world order "

Must be a biased study. One small spot in Russia has indicated even the old Indian markers that were particularly old ones. The ones which basically say that All of the world was populated by what our ancestors chose to. So whatever that study says its probably half a lie and half a story. So that makes Finns our wayward sons and the Russians our son who is in need of some moral support .

Some such genetic studies were conducted during the Dravidian type movements, by western influenced cabal, even in India to show who Indians are all diverse and not united. Mostly discredited now.

Oh yes, the debt. If I want to renovate my house in Finland, I can have bank loan with 20 years pay back at 2% interest ( I have 0.55%, made a good deal ) I do not have to pay any bribes for officials, corruption will not take a share of my budget. In Russia the interest rate is 19%, city planning officer takes bribes and renovation company is corrupt...

The debt is good, if you have assets to back it up, like "western countries" have.

2% outlay for a country generating 0.5% in growth does not sound logical. Sounds a bit like 1.5% debt increase while standing at the same spot.

About the assets to back it up. You probably do not realize but most westerners are more than 100% in debt. And mind you this underlying is not historical cost that you can expect some measure of respite in the fair market valuations. Its friggin discounted cash flow which means empty promises for somebody relying on a debt financing of 2% and growth of 0.5% and a fiat currency to show for these empty promises.

What is your profession BTW. You don't particularly sound clear in finance/commercials.

 

[Cadian]

Answers are embedded

1) It is not a revolution what happened in Kiev. The revolution means entire ruling class is removed from power. In Kiev only one oligarchic clan was liquidated, it's assets were distributed among other clans. Same people that ruled Ukraine for 23 years remained in power. This is a coup.
2) Professional American friends in government will not serve the country's interests, they will serve American interests, that may be "quite" different.
3) Finnish-centrism ahahah, Finnish-centrism, Lol.

 

[jouni]

1) It is not a revolution what happened in Kiev. The revolution means entire ruling class is removed from power. In Kiev only one oligarchic clan was liquidated, it's assets were distributed among other clans. Same people that ruled Ukraine for 23 years remained in power. This is a coup.
2) Professional American friends in government will not serve the country's interests, they will serve American interests, that may be "quite" different.
3) Finnish-centrism ahahah, Finnish-centrism, Lol.

Finnish centrism, Finnish centrism... at least we care for your wellbeing as your neighbour. You always compare yourselves to US for some reason.

 

[jouni]

Must be a biased study. One small spot in Russia has indicated even the old Indian markers that were particularly old ones. The ones which basically say that All of the world was populated by what our ancestors chose to. So whatever that study says its probably half a lie and half a story. So that makes Finns our wayward sons and the Russians our son who is in need of some moral support .

Some such genetic studies were conducted during the Dravidian type movements, by western influenced cabal, even in India to show who Indians are all diverse and not united. Mostly discredited now.





2% outlay for a country generating 0.5% in growth does not sound logical. Sounds a bit like 1.5% debt increase while standing at the same spot.

About the assets to back it up. You probably do not realize but most westerners are more than 100% in debt. And mind you this underlying is not historical cost that you can expect some measure of respite in the fair market valuations. Its friggin discounted cash flow which means empty promises for somebody relying on a debt financing of 2% and growth of 0.5% and a fiat currency to show for these empty promises.

What is your profession BTW. You don't particularly sound clear in finance/commercials.

I am an Architect, but working in project development conceptual side. This forum is full of economists, so I trust the future of India will be bright. I just would not write off "west" just yet.

 

[Cadian]

Finnish centrism, Finnish centrism... at least we care for your wellbeing as your neighbour. You always compare yourselves to US for some reason.

Post-by-post you are trying to explain what happens now in Ukraine on the analogy with recent Finnish history. I only want to say that it's so much wrong. Everything is different.

And I don't see anything unusual in comparing our country with the world's most powerful state, that presents itself as an ideal (sometimes mandatory) model for all others.

 

[jouni]

Post-by-post you are trying to explain what happens now in Ukraine on the analogy with recent Finnish history. I only want to say that it's so much wrong. Everything is different.

And I don't see anything unusual in comparing our country with the world's most powerful state, that presents itself as an ideal (sometimes mandatory) model for all others.

I like to think that I compare Ukraine in a larger context to the democracy movement of the Europe at large. You can think it started from French revolution and is steadily moved eastwards, now it has reached Ukraine. It is not based on "americanism" or "NATO expansion" but to a fact that people have realized that their democrstic neighbors lived better and want the same.

When you compare Russia to US, does it not bother you that Poles and Estonians for example see US as a friend and ally and Russia as former occupier? Luckily Finns because of our history has less skeptical view, more equal relationship.

 

[jouni]

Merkel talks EU security with Stubb and Niinistö | Yle Uutiset | yle.fi

Merkel comes to boost our elections. Talks about Ukraine



We must together defend Ukraine's self-determination," Merkel said at a seminar at the University of Helsinki entitled European Security and the Conflict in Ukraine.

Through its actions in the Ukraine crisis, Russia has destroyed the confidence that the West had built up in it over the years, Merkel added

 

[Gabriel92]

Can we guys stick to the title of this thread ?
Or i'll bring my France into this !