China-Vietnam War (1979~1989)

[Ray]

Where are the Pinghua Chinese from?

http://defenceforumindia.com/china-...offensive-says-south-china-11.html#post328726

 

[Adux]

u cant see the result?
india did nothing. (or india did talking.)
GOI is not stupid as some members here ..LOL

What you mean did nothing, India is going ahead with it, LOL now little chicom

 

[coccafedang]

The USA was the big loser at that time, directly defeated in the was, lost the south VN, failed to protect his allies in South east Aisa, also at home the financial situation became bad, before the USA had more than half productive capacity of the whole world, and guaranteed USD35 can buy one ounce gold from the U.S treasury, after the war, all these were gone.
China also loser, the war between NV can tell you this point.
Soviet a winner at the first, then the Soviet dissolved, all efforts lost.
VN reached the target to unite the south, become a united country, this is a big victory, so you are the only winner.
I only know few days ago, that Mao not support your unification after Nixon visited China, you see, we are told what the Government like us to know, I think you also do not know that China had sent anti air and engineering troops to VN to help you fought the war.

================

Again, you are wrong. I know, the Government told you VN was betrayal, who forgot all helps and supports from China... But that's not correct.
I live in Hanoi, Viet Nam. In Sai Dong town, Gia Lam District (now Long Bien District), there's a Chinese Cemetery. On the memorial wall, there's a sentence "Liệt sỹ bất diệt" (Immortal martyrs) in Chinese and Vietnamese, with nearly 100 tombs. Each tombs describes name, birthplace, birthday, deathday, ... of the martyrs as well as their circumstances of sacrifice... Some were anti-aircrafts gunners, some were volunteers as workers, engineers,... some died because of US bombing over HN, some died in the flood in 1971... Though in 1984-1988, I could saw the anti-China banners everywhere, anti-China editorials were read everyday in Vietnam Voice Broadcasting... but this Cemetery was still well care... I still saw flowers and incense there. I asked my father:" Why were these Chinese buried here? Why do we have to take care this Chinese Cemetery while they are our enemy now, and they are bombarding our land?". My father said:" Now, they are our enemy, because they are invading our land. In the past, they were our friends. These workers, these engineering were building a Chemical Factory for us when they died. These anti-aircraft gunners were defending this Factory when they died. They lost their lives, to help us. We can not forget that. Whatever the situation is, these martyrs are still our friends, and taking care their tombs is our obligation. I hope that when we and China stop the conflict, their families can come here and take them back to their home. We VN never forget our friend's supports!"
As I remeber, in 1994, these martyrs families came and take they all home. Now, the Chinese Cemetery, without Chinese body, is still taken care, by Ministry of Defense.
My house is just about 150m away from this Cetemery. And we often call our housing area "Chinese Cemetery area"...

 

[amoy]

@DMF and @Cocca

I'd say China was a winner by supporting Viet Minh in their liberation wars against Japan, France and the US, even though China and VN were at odds later on.
1) Idealism: People with a faith do fight for what they believe right, not always for "material" gains. VN was then striving for 'independence' and 'reunification'
2) Geopolitics: A unified Communist VN, or a separate VN with the US military presence in the South, which was better for China back in 1960s-1970s?

Besides I disagree with the allegation " Mao didn't want VN North to continue the war for reunification". In fact China's leadership at that time was just not confident abt Viet Cong's strength thus persuaded VN to accept 'ceasefire' or 'peace deals' for a few times (incl 1954 Geneva). It was like, "hey, do accept the deal or u may lose what's held in hand". However, Le Duan was adamant in fighting on and the victory really came quicker than 'expected' thanks to overnight collapse of South Viet regime that was rotten to its core without the US patronage.

On an occasion Zhou Enlai did admit to VN leaders that it was ill advised to ask VN to accept 1954 Geneva agreement with France to separate VN into 2. That could have been a good timing for VN (backed by CN) to march southward before the US replaced France.

VN expressed displeasure when Mao and Nixon met in 1972.

Let's not forget tens of thousands of miserable Chinese fled VN after being ripped off. That really aroused wrath and resentment among Chinese towards VN even up to date.

 

[coccafedang]

I do not agree with you about Geneva agreement rejection. You say VN (backed by CN) can march southward before US replaced France. That can not be correct, cos:
- In 1954, French colony still have a very powerful army, including 146.000 French soldiers and 299.000 pupet regime's soldiers, with well equipments, supported by US. VM had only 166.000 troops and more than 1.000.000 militias or guerrillas, with poor equipments (militias and guerrilas still fought with spears and swords).
- VM was strong in battlefield of mountain or forest... they did not fight well in city battle... even in flat terrain. While in these terrains French had great advantage of Airforce, Amor Vehicle and tanks...
- China could not repeat a second Korean War cos China did not want, US did not want (but US was ready to send troops to prevent Chinese invasion), and Viet Minh did not want, too.
- VM, Uncle Ho believed that General Election would be held, and VM would surely win (US estimated more than 80% Vietnamese could vote for VM), that mean a reunification would be gained without bloodshed war.
About Chinese that fled VN after being ripped off, I think you are wrong about the time. It was after reunification of VN.

 

[amoy]

@Cocca tks for corrections. Mine was based mostly on my read of 1) Le Duan's speech deciphered on Sino-VN relationship, 2) Memoirs of Lee Kwan Yew and Prince Sihanouk. IMO China could have done much better not to corner VN to a for-us-or-against-us mode.

Geopolitics is really tricky- erstwhile allies could someday turn out to be foes. or vice versa, in a cycle. Like China supported VN through the wars, but later the relationship got soured. But at the dawn of USSR, China and VN 'reconciled'. Even former rivals, Hun Sen and Cambodian Monarchy have settled under the same roof now, while Khmer Rouge and Polpot were thrown to the dustbin. The US is "back" to SE Asia for another 'equilibrium', and India is also rejoicing over arising SCS opportunities.

Apart from constant change in realpolitik, another thing constant is - China and VN are neighbors and have to face up to problems in between.

I've visited VN years ago - Ha Long Bay, Haiphong casino, and Lake Hoan Giem (correct spelling?) impressing me very much. I could even relate some Viet words to Chinese roots. Vietnamese are really diligent and intelligent and VN has a great potential as a rising manufacturing hub in a far more better shape than Thailand or Filipines The 2-way flow of people could be in millions every year, Perhaps both have to think out of box in order to solve pending issues. Otherwise history simply repeats itself.

 

[SPIEZ]

India is also rejoicing over arising SCS opportunities.

India looks for business opportunities, like China did or is doing in Sri Lanka and Pakistan.
It is you people who are blowing the South China Sea exploration out of proportions. I ask you doesn't the same law apply to everyone?

How can you develop infrastructure in Internationally recognized disputed territories like PoK?

 

[coccafedang]

It's very interesting...
Yesterday...
Mr Nguyen Phu Trong - President of Vietnam Communist Party visited China and welcomed by Mr Hu Jintao...
While Mr Truong Tan Sang, president of Socialist republic of Vietnam visited India...

 

[SPIEZ]

It's very interesting...
Yesterday...
Mr Nguyen Phu Trong - President of Vietnam Communist Party visited China and welcomed by Mr Hu Jintao...
While Mr Truong Tan Sang, president of Socialist republic of Vietnam visited India...

I m not fully aware of Vietnam foreign relations. What's your country's stand on relations with China ?

 

[coccafedang]

china is one of the most important partners of VN in both economy and politic.
And China is one of the most potential enemies of VN, too.
If VN is as strong as India, our foreign relations will be a little different...

 

[DMF]

Yes, VN is strong enough to all her south east neighbors, but not strong enough to her biggest neighbor in the north, so have to play the smart guy.
The first day sign an agreement with China to solve the south China sea dispute peacefully in future. The next day sign the contract with India to develop the oil and gas in the south china sea, very smart move.
But time is at China's side, now China play according to the rules designed by old empires as Britain and the USA, and China still a developing country, but in 20 years, China will make a new system for everybody to live in.
Mr Dong Xiaoping said that China should not stick the head out, only bent down to develop. You can see China has a low profile for the last 2,3decades, just try to be pleased with everybody around the world, to catch the time to develop the country. In the next 10 to 20 years, you will see what China will have to play with. China has a very clear aim, to be the rule maker, not be ruled by anybody. The rule only set up by very few countries, you look at the history you know.

 

[coccafedang]

China will be a new super power country in the world, that's the truth...
But China should know that if China wants to be a rule maker, or the leader of the world, China should know that they are bounded by US, India and Russia...
If China wants to break it through, they must have allies. True, reliable allies, like NATO, Japan, S.Korea, Australia... and US
To China, they only have Pakistan, and N.Korea. Myanmar, Iran are close to China, but not their allies....
China must find ally, make ally to others countries around... "Make ally" by economic investment, economy support, military co-operation, politic co-operation... In 20 years, they did that well...
But now, China start showing their true aim... I think that it's too early for China to do that. Kongzi said :"Dục tốc bất đạt"...."Hurry makes failure".
To VN, a communist country... VN has two foreign enemies:
- Enemy of Ideology: USA and western allies
- Enemy of territorial sovereignty : China
Or saying in other way, if China give up their ambition of occupying all south China sea (or East Sea), VN will surely be their ally!

 

[niceguy2011]

China will be a new super power country in the world, that's the truth...
But China should know that if China wants to be a rule maker, or the leader of the world, China should know that they are bounded by US, India and Russia...
If China wants to break it through, they must have allies. True, reliable allies, like NATO, Japan, S.Korea, Australia... and US
To China, they only have Pakistan, and N.Korea. Myanmar, Iran are close to China, but not their allies....
China must find ally, make ally to others countries around... "Make ally" by economic investment, economy support, military co-operation, politic co-operation... In 20 years, they did that well...
But now, China start showing their true aim... I think that it's too early for China to do that. Kongzi said :"Dục tốc bất đạt"...."Hurry makes failure".
To VN, a communist country... VN has two foreign enemies:
- Enemy of Ideology: USA and western allies
- Enemy of territorial sovereignty : China
Or saying in other way, if China give up their ambition of occupying all south China sea (or East Sea), VN will surely be their ally!

Weak country has much less choice than strong country.
We can design our aim, but following is the best way for weak countries.

 

[coccafedang]

That's correct... But weak countries can choose following whom...
In South East Asia, at least, small countries can choose USA or China... That choice depends on the benefits of that relation, what they will get from their "leader", what they will loose to "leader"...
To VN, nationlist ideology always bigger than communist ideology...
Of 90mil VN people, there are only 3 mil members of communist party, but there are 90 mil VN patriots...
The Vietnam Communist Party even write in Party Congress documents: "socialism associated with national independence and territorial integrity"...
That means national independence and territorial integrity always be the most important in VN policies...
If VN's national independence and territorial integrity are in danger, VN can even find helps and supports, or even be an ally of USA and Western Capitalsim Countries to protect our land and sea...
With ambitions of occupation territories of other countries in South East Asia, China is pushing these countries closer to USA's arm, even VN...
And enclosure, isolation China from the East and the South, is the main aim of USA now.
And it seems that China is entering US's trap!

 

[niceguy2011]

Following who? Follow the one have the biggest power, or the one can kill u but nobody can help.

If China want to kill Viet, how US gonna to help u?
But China can help u when US want to kill u.

That's correct... But weak countries can choose following whom...
In South East Asia, at least, small countries can choose USA or China... That choice depends on the benefits of that relation, what they will get from their "leader", what they will loose to "leader"...
To VN, nationlist ideology always bigger than communist ideology...
Of 90mil VN people, there are only 3 mil members of communist party, but there are 90 mil VN patriots...
The Vietnam Communist Party even write in Party Congress documents: "socialism associated with national independence and territorial integrity"...
That means national independence and territorial integrity always be the most important in VN policies...
If VN's national independence and territorial integrity are in danger, VN can even find helps and supports, or even be an ally of USA and Western Capitalsim Countries to protect our land and sea...
With ambitions of occupation territories of other countries in South East Asia, China is pushing these countries closer to USA's arm, even VN...
And enclosure, isolation China from the East and the South, is the main aim of USA now.
And it seems that China is entering US's trap!

 

[coccafedang]

What China want is not only an ally but also VN's territory...
What US want is an anti-China ally...
Who will give us more benefits?
Again, I repeat, "With ambitions of occupation territories of other countries in South East Asia, China is pushing these countries closer to USA's arm, even VN..."

 

[amoy]

A few ideas out of cuff
1) China is not that ambitious to become another 'super' power in parallel with the US and her 'rise' has been overhyped somehow.

2) Sino-VN relationship is not ideology based. The same goes for geopolitics worldwide. Besides, though both brand theirs as "Socialsm" VN and China are distinctively different

3) Is VCP still enjoying a broad buy-in of its policies among Vietnamese and able to retain its leading position in the years to come? The dissidence seems gaining momentum.

4) Of course VN can always expect powers like Soviet Union, the US and even India as leverage to keep China in check. But bear in mind on the contrary those powers'd rather have VN to play as a cat's paw than get themselves directly quagmired. For the US enough is enough, Afganistan, and Iraq. Review how South VN was abandoned. http://defenceforumindia.com/china-pakistan/19766-us-grand-strategy-offshore-balancing.html

In the event a potential hegemon comes on the scene in one of those regions, Washington should rely on local forces to counter it and only come onshore to join the fight when it appears that they cannot do the job themselves. Once the potential hegemon is checked, American troops should go back over the horizon.

5) VN may always appeal to 'Nationalism" . Nationalism is taking grip of every contender. Then deadlocked ? A realistic approach may be "joint exploraton while shelfing the territorial dispute".

 

[DMF]

VN sure to worry about China for territorial reasons, but the colonial time is over, now the competition is not to take over the land, but to gain the influence, to insure the resources, the market, that means the development the country is more important then take more land.
China is always a big country, and always has the concept of "under the heaven" when mention about the world. China has an aim, that's not to be bullied again by anybody else, also China will not behave like a bully in future.
At present stage, China still not arrive at superpower status, so the small countries will not come to become allies, also China already has some interests that already contradict with some 3rd world countries that used to be the dear friends of China. this is what happens at this stage of development. But I believe China will move on, after 10, or 20 years the situation will change, but for one thing am pretty sure that China will not resolve the dispute with the neighbors by force again. For two reasons, 1. the founding father of new China all pass away, the younger generation not used to wars. 2. the competition will not between the neighbors you know, must keep the back garden safe and cozy.

 

[niceguy2011]

What China want is not only an ally but also VN's territory...
What US want is an anti-China ally...
Who will give us more benefits?
Again, I repeat, "With ambitions of occupation territories of other countries in South East Asia, China is pushing these countries closer to USA's arm, even VN..."

Again, u have no choice.
if u become ally of US , we will kill u and not one can help u.LOL
btw , ur gov is smart enough. US said though Phippline at earlier this week" we will always support U...."
but ur chairman sign the agreement with us the next day. after that agreement ,u can see US and phillinese had a war game.
LOL

 

[DMF]

I don't believe that China will take a confrontational approaches towards her neighbors, you can see, the Philippines just took 25 fishing boats away from China, if China is really threatening, like to strike at a provoke , then the Philippines will not dare to take the boats away. Now China only wish to develop up the country, to bid the time, have no intention to get any problems with anybody, I think after 15 or 20years, when China really build up the industry and military, then the USA will find out that China is really mean a peaceful rise, not a threat, but a partner, so many disputes around China will vanish then. For the last 30years since the last clash with VN, China never fought another war with nobody, but the USA always in war with somebody, who is the trouble maker you can clearly see.
I believe there are many way to archive the goal, the unwise one is by confrontation, the worst is by war. After WW II, the big powers only group up to beat the small ones, you know.