Ceding Aksai Chin not an option for India

TrueSpirit

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@TrueSpirit The Chinese members here are just patriotic and sometimes don't accept that they are wrong.
Just patriotic, that's all...? Sometimes don't accept that they are wrong....?

Are you done with going through their posts on this & other threads ? No, that is no patriotism or even jingo-ism.

They start with xenophobic declarations, & keep be-belittling, mocking, browbeating everyone else around here, individuals & nations alike sans any respect, like errant kids.

And you call that behavior "just innocent patriotism". That is anything but patriotism.

They are in dire need of disciplining & education. & we are here to help.

I don't belong to the brigade of shirking, apologetic Indians awed by the Han's brazen of display of indulging in unethical & uncivilized acts. No one here is obliged to tolerate their uncouth attitude/remarks.

They gotta respect others (people, cultures & nations), no matter what.

There is simply no other option for them, especially the 3 Chinese posters I mentioned above. Unless that happens, we have to bear the responsibility of civilizing them on DFI & there are no 2 ways about it.

And now, lets get done over it. Wasting our bandwidth over these 3 Han's, we are hardly contribution to the thread. At the same time, our civilizing lessons to them would continue, whenever there is a need for that.
 
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CCTV

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Better industrial base is definitely an advantage in long drawn wars, that drag-on for months & years. Like the majority of pre-1945 wars. But even in that era, Chinese with a much better industrial base & entire Europe backing them, lost wars (& naval engagements) with Japan towards the end of 19th century. I am sure you would juggle out some gibberish numbers from suspect sources trying to prove that was not the case & the Chinese have actually won all battles with everyone (as you always do), but I think , by now, you should know better than that. :p

Anyway, these days (with asymmetrical warfare calling the shots), waging war itself is no more a manadatory requirement for pursuing & accomplishing a nations' interest. There are myriad other ways to do it. Who knows it better than Chinese, with the Frankenstein they have created called Pak. But despite all odds, history proves it, that the one with more ingenuity, resolve & resourcefulness wins it , eventually.

By the way, you have reasons to be worried about India's industrial base because it is not limited by the Indian geography but goes far beyond that: to the North & West & East (think strategic, you would understand). And a much bigger, younger workforce would turn the tables decisively in all wars.

That's advantage India, you know. :namaste:
1. Much better industrial base? Entire Europe ?
At that time the railway mileage and other industrial index is already ahead of China.
The whole Europe and US refused to support China,and Japan get support from British, with unlimited loans to buy English weapon.
And English weapon are the most advanced in the world at that time.
Well Russia was tried to support China,but the Siberia railway is not done yet, they do not have card to play.

2. A country can not mass produce bullet, shells, rifle , canons .... has no industrial base at all or very very weak.
 

TrueSpirit

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Deleted for irrelevance to the thread hence deleting the post
 
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TrueSpirit

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A country can not mass produce bullet, shells, rifle , canons .... has no industrial base at all or very very weak.
Care to elaborate in English, whatever that means, if it means anything at all.

& Then I would teach you the facts, which are, alas, so different from what you been taught all your life.
 

no smoking

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Just patriotic, that's all...? Sometimes don't accept that they are wrong....?
Well, I really don't you have a right to judge if they are right or wrong since you are also invloved in the question. You don't agree with them and they don't agree with you, that is why we call it a dispute.

Are you done with going through their posts on this & other threads ? No, that is no patriotism or even jingo-ism.
They start with xenophobic declarations, & keep be-belittling, mocking, browbeating everyone else around here, individuals & nations alike sans any respect, like errant kids.
I don't think indian members being better than Chinese members.
Of course, you can just put a note in the forum:" This is an Indian forum-Indians have the freedom of mocking and teasing Chinese members & China, while every Chinese must show his or her respect to us." I believe most of these Chineses will respect this rule or you can simply shut them up.
 

The Last Stand

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Well, I really don't you have a right to judge if they are right or wrong since you are also invloved in the question. You don't agree with them and they don't agree with you, that is why we call it a dispute.
Sir, I have debated with CCTV many times and he has actually agreed with me on several things. :D It must be remember that CCTV sir absolutely refuses to accept we have nukes while some Chinese members refuse to accept that India has a space program. That is severely irritating - What would you feel if I said China belongs to Mongolia since Mongols ruled China a few centuries back?

As for TrueSpirit, forgive him since he is really miffed with CCTV.
 

bose

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Well, I really don't you have a right to judge if they are right or wrong since you are also invloved in the question. You don't agree with them and they don't agree with you, that is why we call it a dispute.



I don't think indian members being better than Chinese members.
Of course, you can just put a note in the " This is an Indian forum-Indians have the freedom of mocking and teasing Chinese members & China, while every Chinese must show his or her respect to us." I believe most of these Chineses will respect this rule or you can simply shut them up.
You do the same thing in other forums [not naming them] where you were given the free hand... so do not complain...
 
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t_co

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India can catch trolls who use duplicate accounts hiding behind some fake names and ashamed of being chinese calling themselves bulgarians or other western men.
Are you five years old?
 

The Last Stand

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Thrash you and make you kneel on your knees..........:mad:
Pretty sure that won't happen unless Congress stops it's quest to corrupt India. :frusty:

China will put up one hell of a fight complete with nukes. Pointless to fight with them. We should pick on enemies our own size.
 

TrueSpirit

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Pretty sure that won't happen unless Congress stops it's quest to corrupt India. :frusty:

China will put up one hell of a fight complete with nukes. Pointless to fight with them. We should pick on enemies our own size.
I can see some of us getting too dis-heartened by the latest developments. It is ok to be so. In fact, it is great to be dis-contented & vexed, since the prevailing atmosphere calls for it.

Having said that, now lets save all this anguish & frustration in our hearts & channel them through the right medium, at the apt time.

On the poll day, let no excuse bar us from exercising our fundamental constitutional right to determine & shape our destiny. ; at all levels: Panchayat, City, State, Nation).

Please, do not sit in comfort of our AC rooms unless we have caste ballot. Ensure a clean sweep for the deserving candidate & party, by rising above all partisan considerations.

And, make sure all our kins, friends & acquaintances follow suit. That's the least we can do.

& meanwhile, till the date comes, we try to influence public opinion on this issue through all channels at our disposal (think, RTI, social media, direct dialogue & anything else you can imagine).

We are an ancient civilization, having passed the test of time (when all others have withered or simply faded away, including Confucians) & now we have evolved into an immensely huge, buoyant, young nation with boundless energy & unlimited supply of vigorous manpower.

Time is on our side, provided we do not reconcile with our current fate & instead, lets take charge of our destinies.

We do everything we can think of, in our own capacities & our collective efforts.

Make a pledge to yourself that we do our bit for us, for our own good, in our own interest.
 

no smoking

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You do the same thing in other forums [not naming them] where you were given the free hand... so do not complain...
First, I don't complain about this. It is natural: people's opinion is shaped by his or her position. So, I accept that Indians have the right to be angry on China and even tease it. I just thought Chinese should have the same right. I am saying I am perfect. I don't even argue who is wrong or right.

Second, I just give the advice which I believe should make a lot of indians here lot easier.
 

natarajan

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1. Much better industrial base? Entire Europe ?
At that time the railway mileage and other industrial index is already ahead of China.
The whole Europe and US refused to support China,and Japan get support from British, with unlimited loans to buy English weapon.
And English weapon are the most advanced in the world at that time.
Well Russia was tried to support China,but the Siberia railway is not done yet, they do not have card to play.

2. A country can not mass produce bullet, shells, rifle , canons .... has no industrial base at all or very very weak.
True,we can mass produce but politicians here want mass commission so they go for uncle or some other country
 

Ray

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HARSH LESSONS

- China has outmanoeuvred India on the Ladakh crisis


Kanwal Sibal

The state of our bilateral relations with China has been projected more positively during the visit by the Chinese premier, Li Keqiang, than the reality of our differences would justify. The Depsang valley face-off in Ladakh had clouded the atmosphere prior to the visit, but the panorama has been brightened with sunshine rhetoric during the premier's sojourn in India.

By its unexpected territorial assertion in Ladakh, unmindful of its own premier's visit, China has taught us, once again, a lesson which we are conveniently overlooking in our anxiety to avoid confrontation. The lesson is not dramatic as in 1962 because the circumstances then were different. China already occupies as much Indian territory as it needs geopolitically and the rapport between the forces on the border is less unequal today. The lesson is a limited one, but it has been effectively administered.

China has conveyed that it will react to Indian patrols and border dispositions aimed at acquiring or consolidating tactical local advantage. It will decide where the Line of Actual Control lies and expects India to conform to Chinese perceptions of it, not its own. It has re-affirmed that it treats territorial and economic issues in separate baskets with no trade-offs between the two. For those who believe that trade is a political emollient, they need to remember that China settled its border differences with Russia, Myanmar, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and others when it had no worthwhile trade ties with them, and is currently asserting its territorial claims on Japan and other Southeast Asian countries when its trade and investment ties with them are flourishing.

India's inability to effectively deal politically and militarily with China in any direct stand-off has been driven home as a major lesson. Faced with the Ladakh challenge, our leadership babbled politically, confessed it could not read Chinese motives, gave China the benefit of doubt, implicitly accepted part of the blame for the stand-off, showed keenness to maintain the proposed high-level engagements, including Li Keqiang's visit, and was compelled to dismantle a position in Chumar in return for Chinese withdrawal from Depsang.

It would be wrong to view our withdrawal from a post in Chumar as symbolic, as a card that we created for ourselves and gave up without real cost. The Chinese, too, can characterize their intrusion into Depsang as intended to symbolically assert their territorial claim, and their withdrawal as a goodwill gesture to defuse the issue without conceding that the area lies beyond China's LAC.

While the Ladakh incident may well not slow down plans to improve our border infrastructure, raise additional army formations and increase our air capability in the north, the cutting edge of our presence in the areas of contested control will be blunted. We have been warned by the Chinese that they will react on the ground to what they consider are LAC violations. Our inability to handle the latest Chinese challenge will inevitably make us doubly cautious about avoiding another border stand-off, as our impuissance will be exposed, once again, at great political cost. In short, the lesson taught by the Chinese this time is that we should learn to "behave" ourselves on the border.

It is important to note, therefore, that the joint statement on Li Keqiang's visit covers no new ground on the boundary question, limiting itself to familiar cliches. The special representatives are "encouraged" to push forward the "process" of negotiations and "seek" a framework for an agreement, pending which the two sides will work to "maintain peace and tranquillity" in line with previous agreements. Satisfaction is expressed at the fruitful meetings to date of the new Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination on Border Affairs, without addressing the need to prevent future incidents that would obviate the use of the new mechanism by clarifying the LAC as agreed under the peace and tranquillity accords. Significantly, the new border defence cooperation agreement proposed by the Chinese side, the discursive text of which we have redrafted, does not find mention in the joint statement. In such an agreement, India would need to ensure that the objective of stabilizing the situation on the border further does not interfere with our plans to improve our defence infrastructure on the ground.

Soon after assuming power, President Xi Jinping reiterated the statement made by the former Chinese premier, Wen Jiabao, in Delhi in 2010 that the border issue will take a long time to be resolved. In his Durban meeting with our prime minister, he alluded to an early conclusion of the framework agreement, which was misread by some to signify an opening in the Chinese position. The joint statement puts to rest such speculation. China is unwilling to move forward either on clarifying the LAC or reaching a breakthrough on the framework agreement as the gap between the positions of the two countries after 15 rounds of discussions by the SRs remains unbridged. The Chinese are, essentially, unwilling to give up their territorial claims in the east.

Manmohan Singh had reportedly sensitized President Xi at Durban on India's expectation that as a lower riparian it should be kept informed of Chinese plans to build dams in Tibet through a joint mechanism rather than newspaper reports. This point appears to have been rightly raised again with Li Keqiang, without, however, an adequate Chinese response as the joint statement merely mentions "further cooperation on trans-border rivers"— a rather vague and non-committal formulation.

Our prime minister in Durban and Salman Khurshid in Beijing had rightly urged the Chinese not to allow any country to use its relationship with them to India's detriment, an allusion to China's relationship with Pakistan, including their nuclear cooperation. Oddly, the joint statement has formulations that go counter to our concerns as it commits the two sides "to taking a positive view of and support each other's friendship with other countries," proposing that they should "support each other in enhancing relations with their common neighbours for mutual benefit and win-win results". This suggests India's benevolence towards not only China's relations with Pakistan, but also Nepal and, eventually, Bhutan.

According to the joint statement "the two sides will carry out bilateral cooperation in civil nuclear energy in line with their respective international commitments." This is surprising as it deflects our objections to nuclear cooperation between China and Pakistan and indirectly suggests that this cooperation is in conformity with China's NSG commitments. On the other hand, the agreement between the two sides to hold discussions on non-proliferation is a welcome advance, and so is the reference to China's support for a greater role for India in the United Nations security council.

Our diplomatic negotiators are to be commended for excluding from the joint statement the usual one-sided references to Tibet, the Dalai Lama and one-China. The formulation that "the two sides will not allow their territories to be used for activities against the other" is much more balanced and covers arms supplies from Yunnan to insurgents in the Northeast.

All in all, we are being out- manoeuvred by the Chinese who are cloaking their unwillingness to yield on substance with forward looking rhetoric and softening their hard jawline with smiles.

The author is former foreign secretary of India [email protected]

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130529/jsp/opinion/story_16936456.jsp#.UaVmREDI02w

***********************************

This article enumerates the harsh realities of the standoff and the manner in which China approached the issue given her strategic intent.

The whole issue hinges around the fact that in our anxiety to avoid confrontation, we have accepted that China can react to Indian patrols and border dispositions aimed at acquiring or consolidating tactical local advantage. And taht China will decide where the Line of Actual Control lies and India is expected to conform to Chinese perceptions of it, not its own.

And interestingly, many Indian has been fooled and lulled ny Li Keqiang's Hail Fellow Well Met charade!

One must read between the lines of Chinese pronouncements and body language. They are not straight and it hides much without giving away the intent.

Then there were those who crowed glee over the increasing of trade would lead to better understanding, and in the process, a border understanding.

However, for such people they should not forget that that China settled its border differences with Russia, Myanmar, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and others when it had no worthwhile trade ties with them, and is currently asserting its territorial claims on Japan and other Southeast Asian countries when its trade and investment ties with them are flourishing.

The silver lining to this sordid tale is the latest India Japan jaw jaw that has without any ambiguity sent a clear message to China that India and Japan will shore up and cement a strong strategic relationship as also trade ties. This will also strengthen the India Japan Australia US Diamond that the Japanese PM Abe had enunciated.

It is natural that this has spooked China, and the Peoples' Daily has cautioned India against Japanese 'petty burglars'!
 

amoy

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It would be wrong to view our withdrawal from a post in Chumar as symbolic, as a card that we created for ourselves and gave up without real cost. The Chinese, too, can characterize their intrusion into Depsang as intended to symbolically assert their territorial claim, and their withdrawal as a goodwill gesture to defuse the issue without conceding that the area lies beyond China's LAC.
Highlighting this para. as the tactics Indians employ fits into below strategem (though I do not think below Korean interpretation is entirely correct)

7. Make something from nothing. Korean: Mu jung saeng yu
無中生有 - Produce something out of nothing

You create a false idea in the mind of the opponent, and fix it in his mind as a reality. In particular, this means that you convey the impression that you have what you do not, to the end that you may appear formidable and thus actually obtain a security that you had not enjoyed before.

Combat application: I once used my wallet as a pretend cell phone to scare off a car full of car thieves. From a distance they thought I was calling the police. This is similar to sticking your finger through your jacket and faking you have a gun. You could also pretend to know a stranger crossing the street, waving to them to plant the false idea in the attackers mind that you know them.
 

Ray

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This is important since China takes comfort that if trade booms, then other countries will drop their difference with China

However, for such people they should not forget that that China settled its border differences with Russia, Myanmar, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and others when it had no worthwhile trade ties with them, and is currently asserting its territorial claims on Japan and other Southeast Asian countries when its trade and investment ties with them are flourishing.
 

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