CDS news, updates, discussions and reports

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
How would the reporting now be? Will the three service chiefs be able to apprise the political leadership without having to keep the CDS in the loop.
I can't imagine the army chief first apprising CDS and then Raksha Mantri or Pradhan Mantri.
It is exactly to tide over such problems that the Govt of the day would need a single point advisor.
Everything in the Armed Forces is not a single Service issue. In fact most of the issues are tri-service issues.

For example, Nuclear warfare, Cyber warfare, SF operations, air land battles, air support, Intelligence, communication, IT and electronics, Air Defence, Medicals, Supply, Repairs and logistics, roads and buildings, Defence lands, Surveys, Expeditions, adventure and sports, rations, amenities, terms of service, pay , pension, training, education, manpower development, missiles, ammunition management, small arms, social media are a few subjects which a matter of concern for all.

The GOI need a single point agency to tell them what is required to be done rather than Navy, airforce and Army asking for three different types of assault rifles for their own SFs. And then fighting turf battles. This is a small example.

This synergy is absolutely vital for conduct of a modern day integrated battles - that is where the real value of CDS lies. He would be a commander than and advisor - chief of staff. No he will be commander of Forces to conduct the battles.

Since the Chiefs of three Services have to be subordinated to such a commander there can be a little heart burn.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
I think Shiv Aroor makes an interesting point: What happens to the Defence Secretary with a CDS in place? He’ll just be a departmental mandarin?
Secretary Defence is a very powerful man as he still has a large deptt of Defence production, Military Estate, DPSU, procurements, budgeting, DRDO and many more importnat resources to manage.

Shiv Aroor is son in law of an air marshall and expert in putting forward IAF views - which by and large still remains hostile to the idea of CDS. He has not graduated to the level of expressing his views.
 

Holy Triad

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Messages
4,110
Likes
24,158
Country flag
Sources said Gen Rawat is the front-runner even though Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa is the senior-most of the three chiefs. Dhanoa is set to retire on 30 Sep, while Rawat will superannuate on 31 December. The process of finalising finer details will take anywhere from 1-3 months.


It is also not clear whether the CDS will be at par with or above the Cabinet Secretary, the senior-most civil servant in the country. Sources said in all likelihood, the two posts would be at par if CDS is 5*

 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
Sources said Gen Rawat is the front-runner even though Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa is the senior-most of the three chiefs. Dhanoa is set to retire on 30 Sep, while Rawat will superannuate on 31 December. The process of finalising finer details will take anywhere from 1-3 months.


It is also not clear whether the CDS will be at par with or above the Cabinet Secretary, the senior-most civil servant in the country. Sources said in all likelihood, the two posts would be at par if CDS is 5*

Throwing titbits about status is a spoiler and meant to garner opposition of the bureaucracy......
For the current government status is the last thing on their mind.... If they want Rawat they can even grant him a Cabinet rank... can any one stop it.

Let status be decided subsequently ... how does it matter... poor Ajit Doval is still NSA like he was earlier.

Let the functionality be decided... That is what matters and that is what is feared.

First of all - let MoD be integrated fully with three services plus other defence establishments.
 

uoftotaku

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
937
Likes
3,544
Country flag
No practical reason the CDS absolutely HAS to be 5*.

All 3 services already have sub level seniority at 3* positions, for eg a 3* Corps GOC still is junior to a 3* Regional GOC etc, so what's the problem with a 4th 4* being seniormost to the other 3 4*s?

All this talk is just symptomatic of the hidebound snobbery of the babu culture where petty turf wars based on minor differences in rank are the norm. Military should grow away from this type of thinking.

Otherwise we will never transition into a force which rewards merit and competence instead of someone's luck with date of birth
 

republic_roi97

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2016
Messages
1,960
Likes
2,700
Country flag
No, because the CDS has one person outranking him - The President of India (Commander in Chief).
All these talks of coup only exist in the feckless imagination of Congressi khaandani types ever since Chacha had a feverish dream that Army was plotting to overthrow him.

We are not Pukkiestan and our Forces are not hungry for power.

Also to expand on point raised on Fateh thread, many ex-officers dislike Rawat sir and paint him undeserving only because he was appointed by superceding 2 seniors. To many old foggies, seniority is a cardinal red line.
Thanks for clearing my doubts, because this is what a liberandus were barking on a comment section to a post, I really had no idea about this that's why I asked.
I do believe after studying this, that it really is a big deal of a move, not just for coordination but also for modernisation of our armed forces. I am at full support for this. Bravo Modi ji PBUH.
 

abingdonboy

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,040
Likes
33,588
Country flag
Unless the CDS is a 5* this entire announcement is just eyewash.


It seems speculation of How Modi govt is pursuing this is that it will just be one of The 4* service chiefs ie a first among equals but this is pretty much already the system as there is already a chairman of the defence staff which is one of the 3 service chiefs on rotation.

After initial jubilation at the news I’m back to reality. 2 steps foreword, 2 steps back. A lot of
Hype for nothing. Nothing will change with this model.
 

Anathema

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2017
Messages
169
Likes
530
Country flag
Keep an eye out for paki media chatter on this development. They are sure to spook out.

If we are indeed going to take back PoK, instituting a CDS is a major precursor. I think an appointment will be made in mere weeks, if not days.

As Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain said, if he's a 4-star ofc who's "first among equals," (like the CJI is the first among equal Justices of the SC), then this is a peacetime move.

If however he's a 5-star officer, then Pakistan is in big trouble. Meticulous planning is going into taking back PoK.

From a technical and legal standpoint, the institution of CDS, and this whole exercise of appointing one, will be most effective if they appoint a 5-star officer.
What exactly is the rationale behind "If its 4 star then its a peace time move; If its 5 star its a war time move" ? Not able to comprehend.
 

uoftotaku

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
937
Likes
3,544
Country flag
What exactly is the rationale behind "If its 4 star then its a peace time move; If its 5 star its a war time move" ? Not able to comprehend.
5* rank comes with additional powers and authority which is 2nd only to President. Hence it is only given in war time so that military can act freely to respond to threats without political interference (in theory)
 

Suryavanshi

Cheeni KLPDhokebaaz
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
16,330
Likes
70,174
Unless the CDS is a 5* this entire announcement is just eyewash.


It seems speculation of How Modi govt is pursuing this is that it will just be one of The 4* service chiefs ie a first among equals but this is pretty much already the system as there is already a chairman of the defence staff which is one of the 3 service chiefs on rotation.

After initial jubilation at the news I’m back to reality. 2 steps foreword, 2 steps back. A lot of
Hype for nothing. Nothing will change with this model.
Lets see it's a test for Modi government.

I am more assured they give a dime about Indias ambition after scrapping of 370.

I hope for the very best.
 

scatterStorm

Senior Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
2,242
Likes
5,335
Country flag
I've always wondered about the IAF's motivations in opposing both CDS and Joint Theater Command concepts in the past. What is it exactly that they're so afraid of?
It's all about "economy of scale". For airmen, that would mean the dimension that they are working in will be bifurcated. That would mean lowering of royalties or resources.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
Bhai Logo Kam Ki baat karo... kyon bekar ki baat karate ho.

Four Star or five star is immaterial to start with. Command and authority as also importance is derived from the functionality. It is the functional sphere of CDS that matters the most.

If a man is in Command of India;s strategic forces Command, SF command, Space Command, Cyber warfare, Andaman and Nicobar, Joint operations etc .... let me see sucker who would claim higher status than him at least within armed forces.

When it comes to Civilians, Civil Military equations and relationships are based on very different parameters including political culture of a country, ethos, traditions and the values it exposes. If Nehru and Menon mistreated the Armed forces, it was due to their stupid copied leftist and pseudo values they exposed. It was their total lack of understanding of issues related to strategic affairs and military affairs with which no one in India was allowed to deal with by the British. So they applied their popular politics tools on Army. If they destroyed all Rajas and Nababs, their perks, privileges and status, they applied the same tools on Indian Army.

On the part of bureaucracy, it was their desire to overthrow the military superiority over them which remained established for more than 100 years that led them to demolish Armed Forces.

Today, we are past 74 years of our own rule and independence and rulers of a vast country. Nether the past prejudices, nor the bureaucratic or political baggage can grude the future of our country. Today's elitist competition in society has shifted far away from traditional fields of Rajas and Wazirs and gone towards industrialist, Farm owners, technocrates, financial bigwigs etc. In military affairs Gora Sahib are no longer responsible for security of the country but ourselves only.

So kindly discuss functionality of the post of CDS rather than his status. How is it going to effect you. If NSA has been given the status of Cabinet rank, it is to facilitate him to workd better with former collouges like Th FM who are today Cabinet Minister. It does not effect anyone at all.

Let us get away from the routed traditional mentality of determining who is a brahmin and who is shudra, who will wear longer dhoti and who will get shorter one.

Let us not get into material things like CDS will be subordinate to Cabinet Secretary or not ? How does it matter to any one here. If one wants to learn then it is better to look at other countries and see what is there.
 

captscooby81

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2016
Messages
7,135
Likes
27,140
Country flag
So here’s my preliminary understanding of PM’s CDS announcement. The first incumbent will be a 4 star rank officer, a notch above the three sevice chiefs; A first among equals. A good parallel will be the difference between regular three stars and Army Commanders or equivalent.

The CCS gave its clearance to the creation of the post early this month but it was decided that PM will make the announcement from the ramparts of Red Fort. The single biggest defence reform in decades deserved the occasion.

The full gamut of tasks, rules of business for the new CDS have all been worked out. Still it will take at least 3-4 months for the new incumbent to take charge.

The initial tasking for the CDS will be: prioritising defence acquisition and procurement across the three services; eliminate duplication; integrate logistics and training functions; provide advice to the RM and CCS.

Operational control of the services will remain with the respective chiefs—at least for now. The next steps after integration will be establishment of joint commands. This may take upto 5-6 years. HQ IDS will be directly under CDS. On every count the CDS is a breakthrough moment.

 

uoftotaku

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2015
Messages
937
Likes
3,544
Country flag
Fantastic news. Just what everyone was hoping for.

Biggest will be in combined acquisitions. Absolutely ground breaking for Indian context and will save huge amounts of time and money wasted in replication
 

daya

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
780
Likes
1,826
Country flag
The IAS lobby has started raising obstacles as it did earlier... PM should abolish the recruitment system. Recruitment in entry level viz. Constable/Sepoy in army/police. No direct recruitment of IAS/IPS/PPS/Daroga...Sepoy to Army Chief/DGP. Clerk to Chief Secretary.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
The IAS lobby has started raising obstacles as it did earlier... PM should abolish the recruitment system. Recruitment in entry level viz. Constable/Sepoy in army/police. No direct recruitment of IAS/IPS/PPS/Daroga...Sepoy to Army Chief/DGP. Clerk to Chief Secretary.
Do not worry for lobbies...
India has too many external enemies and defence issues to trouble her and CDS can not be kept out of the door of a Defence secretary..

Lobby of IAS and IFS was too strong for the post and appointment of NSA. They claimed and demanded it to be their turf. When Doval an ex IPS was appointed as NSA it was taken as encroachment on IAS / IFS empire. But look at the situation now..... silence has been won..

It is the time, circumstances and functional importance of CDS that will keep many lobbyist out side the door of CDS....

So let those bark who's job is to bark.. The issue of status must never ever be allowed to be used as a block in the way of creation of CDS....

Modern India requires modern structures and pen pushing JNU educated Babus can not be useful part of it...
 

captscooby81

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2016
Messages
7,135
Likes
27,140
Country flag
CDS to Bring Doctrinal Coherence in the Indian Military

August 16, 2019; By: Nitin A. Gokhale

Email
Prime Minister Narendra Modi took everyone—or let me say at least the strategic community—by surprise by announcing the appointment of a Chief of Defence Staff from the ramparts of the Red Fort on 15 August.

“Our forces are India’s pride. To further sharpen coordination between the forces, I want to announce a major decision from the Red Fort. India will have a Chief of Defence Staff (CDS). This is going to make the forces even more effective,” the Prime Minister said in his Independence Day speech, ushering in one of the most significant defence reforms in the past two decades.

The need for creating the post of CDS was first clearly articulated by the Kargil Review Committee (KRC) in 1999, although the demand for a single point military adviser has existed since 1971. The Group of Ministers (GoM) appointed in the wake of the KRC report recommended several measures to improve synergy and coordination among the three armed forces. The biggest recommendation was to create the post of CDS. However, traditional bickering amongst military leaders, resistance from the civil bureaucracy and lack of political will combined to delay the appointment of CDS so far.

On Thursday however, Modi, politically stronger than any other Prime Minister since 1984, bit the bullet, taking the first step in what is likely to be a long road towards truly integrating India’s armed forces.

So what is the likely road map of this journey? And what would constitute the job profile of India’s first CDS? Details are still hazy but from whatever little information one could gather from multiple sources, it is clearly going to be a calibrated approach to achieve full inter-services jointness and integration of the three services with the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in coming years.

First up, it needs to be noted that India’s first CDS will be a four-star officer, equal in rank to the three service chiefs but a notch higher in status. He will most likely also have functional parity with the defence secretary although the top civil servant in the MoD will continue to be below the CDS and the three service chiefs in the Warrant of Precedence. This arrangement will probably disappoint many military veterans but in its wisdom, the government has decided to be cautious and not go the whole hog in giving a 5-star rank to the CDS—at least for the moment.

To begin with, the CDS is to be entrusted with full charge of the recently created three tri-services agencies—for space, cyber and special operations. The Andaman and Nicobar Command, headquartered at Port Blair will also be under the CDS while there will be no change in the status of the Strategic Forces Command (SFC), the functional arm of the country’s Nuclear Command Authority (NCA). Any future tri-service organisation, let’s say an Indian Ocean Region (IOR) Command, can also become the direct responsibility of the CDS.

All available inputs suggest that the main tasks assigned to the CDS will include integrating training infrastructure and courses spread across the three services, prioritisation of inter-service allocation of resources and avoiding duplication in acquisition and procurement in consultation with the service headquarters. Going forward, the CDS will plan and execute tri-service exercises—both small and large—over the next two-three years to evolve true jointness across the military.

In a way, CDS will replace the current Chiefs of Staff Committee (CoSC), a compromise arrangement where service chiefs become chairman by rotation. The CISC (Chief of Integrated Defence Staff to the CoSC), a three-star officer, currently heading the HQ Integrated Defence Staff (IDS), created after the GoM report in 2001, will become the Vice Chief of Defence Staff. The IDS organisation—and its expanded scope and numbers–will therefore automatically come under the CDS as his secretariat.

Eventually, HQ IDS may have to be integrated with the MoD, instead of remaining outside its functional structure, necessitating changes in allocation of business rules. The CDS will thus report to the Raksha Mantri (defence minister) and the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS). Some current practices will however remain unchanged. The defence secretary will be directly responsible to the Parliament for the functioning of the MoD and will be in-charge of budget and its disbursement in the ministry.

The Prime Minister’s announcement may appear to have been made out of the blue, but it now transpires that the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO), the National Security Council Secretariat (NSCS), the MoD have been working in tandem to not just create the post of CDS but also evolve a defence strategy for the country. In fact, the national defence strategy (which looks at the country’s internal, external and non-traditional security threats in a comprehensive manner) has been derived from the National Security Strategy (NSS) that has been finalised in the past six months by the NSCS. The CDS is now expected to write a joint military doctrine flowing out of the national defence strategy and the Raksha Mantri’s periodic operational directive issued to the Indian military. There is also a clear understanding at the highest decision-making level that in the Indian context there is no need or scope to create joint or theatre commands given that the country also has complex internal security challenges to deal with.

The CDS is expected to work with all the three service headquarters and the civilian bureaucracy to bring doctrinal coherence in the Indian military’s future roadmap. There is however no plan to give any operational role to the CDS in the near future. That will remain the primary responsibility of the respective service chief. Overall, this move is aimed not only at improving inter-services synergy but also to create a balance in the civil-military relations. While keeping the primacy of civilian control over the military, the creation of the post CDS should be seen as the first step towards bringing the pendulum of civil-military relations to the middle instead of heavily leaning towards the civilian segment of the nation-state.

Nitin A. Gokhale
 

Filtercoffee

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
615
Likes
214
Country flag
Five stars officers have to be in office till death. A four star officer and chiefs of streams with four stars will create havoc due to the same rank. An living six star officer is un-heard of to even the bigger militaries. What is the best choice?
 

RAM

The southern Man
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
2,288
Likes
445
Country flag
Bhai Logo Kam Ki baat karo... kyon bekar ki baat karate ho.

Four Star or five star is immaterial to start with. Command and authority as also importance is derived from the functionality. It is the functional sphere of CDS that matters the most.

If a man is in Command of India;s strategic forces Command, SF command, Space Command, Cyber warfare, Andaman and Nicobar, Joint operations etc .... let me see sucker who would claim higher status than him at least within armed forces.

When it comes to Civilians, Civil Military equations and relationships are based on very different parameters including political culture of a country, ethos, traditions and the values it exposes. If Nehru and Menon mistreated the Armed forces, it was due to their stupid copied leftist and pseudo values they exposed. It was their total lack of understanding of issues related to strategic affairs and military affairs with which no one in India was allowed to deal with by the British. So they applied their popular politics tools on Army. If they destroyed all Rajas and Nababs, their perks, privileges and status, they applied the same tools on Indian Army.

On the part of bureaucracy, it was their desire to overthrow the military superiority over them which remained established for more than 100 years that led them to demolish Armed Forces.

Today, we are past 74 years of our own rule and independence and rulers of a vast country. Nether the past prejudices, nor the bureaucratic or political baggage can grude the future of our country. Today's elitist competition in society has shifted far away from traditional fields of Rajas and Wazirs and gone towards industrialist, Farm owners, technocrates, financial bigwigs etc. In military affairs Gora Sahib are no longer responsible for security of the country but ourselves only.

So kindly discuss functionality of the post of CDS rather than his status. How is it going to effect you. If NSA has been given the status of Cabinet rank, it is to facilitate him to workd better with former collouges like Th FM who are today Cabinet Minister. It does not effect anyone at all.

Let us get away from the routed traditional mentality of determining who is a brahmin and who is shudra, who will wear longer dhoti and who will get shorter one.

Let us not get into material things like CDS will be subordinate to Cabinet Secretary or not ? How does it matter to any one here. If one wants to learn then it is better to look at other countries and see what is there.

Dear sir,

whoever you are ,your posts always a great read in any hour of the day wth uttermost expertise and enlightening substance and character .And i REALLY appreciate your presence here in this forum as a value addded member .(I follow your posts whenever I come accross one)

The above post summarised our History of military poilicies unfurled by our past political masters and their ineptitude in the shortest version possible.Thanx again.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top