C-17 Globemaster III (IAF)

[Bhadra]

Can air ever be an alternative to land ??
Never.... so is true of the reverse ..

But the idea is we are basically land creatures and not air creatures..

Air and water is supplementary, complementary, necessary but can not override land..

Can those .. ??

 

[brational]

For your knowledge I would like to mention that there is no major rail connectivity to all NE states except a meter guage line to agartala and dibrugarh.so how will we take our logistics to NE border area in the time of surprising attack by China.so here c17 will come for our use.except c17 ,transportation of logistics through road to NE border will take at least 2 days .

FYI, There is a broad gauge line up to Dibrugarh/Tinsukia and the same line has been extended to Ledo further east. There is another line (Rangiya-Mukangsalek) that runs through the north bank of Brahmaputra i.e. foot hills of Arunachal Pradesh which is scheduled to be opened for passenger traffic by the end of this year, few trains has been announced in the 2014-15 rail budget including an Express train to Delhi. This will reduce the pressure of the armed forces significantly.

Still reaching the border posts are far cry. Every year the border roads suffer from landslides, flash floods and snowfalls during winters. BRO's ability to build the roads in this area is a big question mark. They are taking decades to upgrade the existing roads leave alone the new ones.

Only 3 forward areas have ALGs that support fixed wing aircraft (Mechuka, Daporijo and Along), so a vast area is still remain a challenge for rapid build-up during a surprise attack. There are too many border road projects sanctioned in Arunachal Pradesh. Once completed, they will provide greater support to the isolated villages, tourism and defense forces.

 

[sgarg]

Thanks brational for clearing the rail issue.

C-17 is a heavy transport. It is basically in the same category as IL-76. A transport is a transport (basically a flying truck) any way you cut it. What technology can it offer.

Only AN-32 and helicopters are suitable for para-drop of supplies in forward areas.

India needs more turbo-props. The turbo-prop is the correct type of aircraft for supplying isolated posts. This is where Hercules comes in; and this is the reason I support the Hercules buy. The logical thing is to buy more Hercules.

Light 105mm guns, heavy mortars, rocket launchers, ammo and food is the most likely para-drop for isolated posts.

BTW India does not have a light 122mm rocket launcher which is a must for China border.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

678 Kargil passengers airlifted in IL76 Lastupdate:- Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

"Srinagar, Mar 4: At least 678 stranded passengers of Kargil were airlifted in IL76 Indian Air Force plane between Jammu-Leh and Srinagar-Leh, today, an official spokesman said."

This does not look like an IL-76 fleet that is grounded for spares. You would never risk so many civilians in an unsafe plane.

You forget how our forces work when they want to buy some expensive foreign toy. They will keep on making excuses and will keep on filling files with notings that denigrate their current stuff.

The import lobby is very strong and journalists are not difficult to buy in this country. I would trust government audit reports far more than random news in our newspapers.

brother you need to think before writing your statements. There is a large difference between not getting spares in time and not getting maintained.
the aircraft would be unsafe IF the aircraft would be flying without being maintained. Do you really think IAF would allow a plane to fly without maintanence? and which govt audit reports are you talking about? As far as I know, there is no such audit report that conflicts my views. And I never trust any news channels or papers. I find legitimate sources . Another problem concerning Il76 is its high operating costs as lack of spares result in more expenses.

 

[pmaitra]

For your knowledge I would like to mention that there is no major rail connectivity to all NE states except a meter guage line to agartala and dibrugarh.so how will we take our logistics to NE border area in the time of surprising attack by China.so here c17 will come for our use.except c17 ,transportation of logistics through road to NE border will take at least 2 days .

We need to procure more Mil-26T2, which is a newer model, and has less crew. These helicopters were very useful in mobilizing troops in the North East

According to M. L. Sali, author of "India-China Border Dispute: A Case Study of the Eastern Sector," one Mil-26 can do what two Antonov-12s can do with space for take off and landing.

In 1986, the Mil-26 was part of Operation Chequerboard, that quickly moved troops to the North East.

The Mil-26 has done a lot of commendable work in the mountains:

Quotes from BR:

- Feb 89, MI-26 helicopter undertook the only of its kind underslung operation taking Pontoon bridge form Ludhiana to Sirhind canal.
- Early 1999, a crashed MiG-21 was airlifted by the Unit to Chandigarh.
- 21 Nov 2001, the Mi-8 which crashed in the Rann of Kutch was helilifted by the Mi-26s to Bhuj.
- 2002, a MiG-21 Bison which crashed in the fields near Ambala was airlifted by the Unit to Ambala Air Force Station.
- In Jul 2002 the Mi-26 recovered the first civilian aircraft (Beechcraft), which had met with an accident at Kangra airfield. Another first was achieved as the unit flew the longest ever underslung flight (3:15 hrs).
- 22 Feb 2006 - An Mi-26 flown by the CO, Wg Cdr Sushil Ghera, airlifted an Mi-17 that forcelanded in a river bed a few days earlier to Chandigarh Air Force Station.
-Sept 2007 - Mi-17 1V airlifted from Bandipore to Awantipura
-In 2010, the helicopter was actively used to lift heavy equipment for the Katra-Quazigand Railway project providing rail connectivity to the Srinagar Valley.

It also did a commendable job by laying out the roads in Anini sector in the east. Anini sector was earlier totally air maintained.

[HR][/HR]

678 Kargil passengers airlifted in IL76 Lastupdate:- Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

"Srinagar, Mar 4: At least 678 stranded passengers of Kargil were airlifted in IL76 Indian Air Force plane between Jammu-Leh and Srinagar-Leh, today, an official spokesman said."

This does not look like an IL-76 fleet that is grounded for spares. You would never risk so many civilians in an unsafe plane.

You forget how our forces work when they want to buy some expensive foreign toy. They will keep on making excuses and will keep on filling files with notings that denigrate their current stuff.

The import lobby is very strong and journalists are not difficult to buy in this country. I would trust government audit reports far more than random news in our newspapers.

We have spare issues with the Mil-26 Halo. Ilyushin-76 has been the mainstay of India's military cargo transport. I am not aware of any spare issues with the Ilyushin-76.

I would like India to set up domestic manufacturing facility for this helicopter, including the turbines.
[HR][/HR]

No doubt il76 is a good plane but we need to keep up with the changing time and advance technology .c17 fleet has advance technology and ew suit ,navigation system that il 76 do not have.but still I will say il76 has the capabilities to augment the c 17 fleet.

C-17 is needed to keep our operational costs down. The Ilyushin-76 should also be kept in our fleet, and used sparingly, because, those will be our mainstay if we are subjected to sanctions. For peacetime operations, C-17 should be used most of the times, as it is fuel efficient and requires less crew, thus keeping our operational costs down.
[HR][/HR]

God save us if within our country and within our land borders we have to depend on air supplies as the major source of replenishment !! That is why infrastructure is very very important >

That is very true. No matter how many planes we acquire, without proper roads, our planes will always be vulnerable. The urgency should be to develop roads in the mountainous border regions, and broad gauge connectivity up to the foothills of these mountains.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

To pmaitra.u r right bro.even though there is spare part issue, iaf must buy aleast 10 more mi 26.it can be used in disaster management and other heavy load lifting work.but dear it can not be used properly in most of high altitude NE region as it is too heavy.still it is a very good bird.

 

[pmaitra]

I have to add that we acquired 2 Mil-26s in 1986 and two more in 1989. These helicopters have a service life of 8 years, or 1200 flight hours. This is 2014. Considering the fact that they served long after their service life ended, tells me we need to get quite a few of these brand new. Ideally, we should be making them in India after purchasing ToT.

 

[brational]

We need to procure more Mil-26T2, which is a newer model, and has less crew. These helicopters were very useful in mobilizing troops in the North East

According to M. L. Sali, author of "India-China Border Dispute: A Case Study of the Eastern Sector," one Mil-26 can do what two Antonov-12s can do with space for take off and landing.

In 1986, the Mil-26 was part of Operation Chequerboard, that quickly moved troops to the North East.

The Mil-26 has done a lot of commendable work in the mountains:

IMO heavy lifters are not suitable for high altitude with MTOW. During operation Chequerboard, these Helos reached Tawang overflying Bhutan bypassing Sela top 4500m+. You can not guarantee the same gesture by Bhutan in future. Most of the forwards posts in Arunachal are in high altitude areas. There are few posts which can be reached only on foot after 5-6 days trek. So infra/road development is the only solution.

Further, the ALGs are only served with AN-12/32, Dorniers and Mi-17. I have never seen any IL-76, C-17 or Herc landing there.

 

[pmaitra]

IMO heavy lifters are not suitable for high altitude with MTOW. During operation Chequerboard, these Helos reached Tawang overflying Bhutan bypassing Sela top 4500m+. You can not guarantee the same gesture by Bhutan in future. Most of the forwards posts in Arunachal are in high altitude areas. There are few posts which can be reached only on foot after 5-6 days trek. So infra/road development is the only solution.

Further, the ALGs are only served with AN-12/32, Dorniers and Mi-17. I have never seen any IL-76, C-17 or Herc landing there.

You are right about that. (Thanks for the information)

Yes, we need to develop roads.

 

[sgarg]

We cannot have a very small fleet of anything considering size of the country and maintainability.

Medium helicopters are very good for NE, and then para-drop from turbo-props fills rest of the need.

The IL-76, C-17 will stay far away from the border. So yes, they can move things much faster than rail/road but the bulk movement will still be through rail/road only.

 

[brational]

C-17 are cost effective for heavy load transprtation to Andaman/Agatti.. It is also capable of operating from airstrps like DBO where other aircrafts fail. This is undoubtedly a modern logistics solution for the Armed forces with quicker turnaround time. Yet not very suitable for forward operations in NE because the foot hills of Arunachal pradesh are already connected by Rail, further movement of men and material can be optimized with helos and medium/small lift aircrafts from the foot hills(Tezpur, Mohanbari, Jorhat, Chabua and Lilabari airports in Assam and AAC Missamarhi near Tezpur) to forward posts.

 

[sgarg]

Theoretically.

Practically pre-positioning of materiel is the better option.

The fuel and ammo dumps are needed for effective fight.

The transports are always needed. Not suggesting otherwise. But you cannot assume India's fleet can resupply a whole army.

 

[brational]

Theoretically.

Practically pre-positioning of materiel is the better option.

The fuel and ammo dumps are needed for effective fight.

The transports are always needed. Not suggesting otherwise. But you cannot assume India's fleet can resupply a whole army.

This is not a theory. This is how it is for more than 50 years. This is very much practical since border roads are non existent.

Prepositioning of what? Arms and ammunition depots are already in place, Border posts are manned that's why the air drops are happening to meet the day to day requirements of the troops. the areas which are well connected by road they are supplied by road. I believe all vital prepositioning have already been done. Army presence must be very strong here that's why chinese incursion is less if not zero.

Yes, road infra needed and things are moving in the right direction, but this is not going to happen overnight.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

I m not sure whether c17 can land in DBO as it is at 8000ft altitude.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

I m not sure whether c17 can land in DBO as it is at 8000ft altitude.

It can . But DBO would need modernisation to handle the aircraft of the size of C17 on regular bases.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

Govt should build a full fledge airbase in DBO.

 

[sgarg]

Govt should build a full fledge airbase in DBO.

DBO is not suitable for an airbase. You never build an airbase within artillery fire range of enemy positions.

India has plenty of airbases. The problem is almost half do not have fighter planes due to shortage of planes.

 

[sgarg]

I m not sure whether c17 can land in DBO as it is at 8000ft altitude.

Heavy transports will never land in DBO or other such forward air strips.

The IL-76 and C-17 will remain quite far from battle lines. You have already seen what happened to planes landing at Donetsk airport. They get shot down. Transports are very easy to shoot down, as these are huge planes (very big RCS) and a missile will get a lock from very very far away.

 

[sgarg]

The primary job of heavy transport will be to move soldiers, equipment and ammunition to the "safe" bases closer to area of conflict.

The "safe" part means an airport outside enemy's artillery range.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

Don't worry. C17 has chaff dispenser which will protect it from any missile attack.