C-17 Globemaster III (IAF)

[Kunal Biswas]

There was no alternative back then, Even now we don`t have ..

Unlikely otherwise IAF could not have bought IL-78 and A-50 based on the same IL-76 platform. IL-76 are also used by ARC.
It is through FMS - which is more like keeping Uncle happy.

 

[sgarg]

I think C-17 is a replacement for IL-76 fleet as IL-76 fleet is at the end of its service life (acquired in 80s). Any old plane requires more maintenance, so I agree that these are needed to be replaced. The issue is if IAF would have bought new IL-76s.

The IL-76 is a good plane too, specially the newer versions. I doubt uptime of C-17 is any greater than IL-76.

The problem is India does not use its transports much. The C-17 will also rust on the tarmac.

When they are used, it will be to ferry troops and supplies. The tank is a very rare cargo for these planes.

 

[DivineHeretic]

I cannot find the source but its the spare availability and soaring maintenance cost which cause IAF to look for C-17 in mass ..

The serviceability of the IL-76 has also been called into question. Since the aircraft is manufactured in Uzbekistan, there is a constant lack of spare parts, adding to IAF woes. "The spares availability of the IL-76 is not good. We have to get them from Russia, and that takes a lot of time, and additionally, they are not easily available.

Transport fleet woes force IAF to look West - Economic Times

The Il-76 are very maintenance intensive, with low fleet availability.

 

[DivineHeretic]

I think C-17 is a replacement for IL-76 fleet as IL-76 fleet is at the end of its service life (acquired in 80s). Any old plane requires more maintenance, so I agree that these are needed to be replaced. The issue is if IAF would have bought new IL-76s.

The IL-76 is a good plane too, specially the newer versions. I doubt uptime of C-17 is any greater than IL-76.

The problem is India does not use its transports much. The C-17 will also rust on the tarmac.

When they are used, it will be to ferry troops and supplies. The tank is a very rare cargo for these planes.

You are relying on a series of assumptions to forward your point.

Firstly, there are no new IL-76s in the market.

Wherefrom did you get the idea that IAF doesn't use its transport fleet. Ignorance much? A significant number of forward deployed troops in Arunachal Pradesh are supplied exclusively by air, in addition to troops in Leh and Ladakh & of course Siachin. Infact, there exists entire civilian villages in Arunachal Pradesh that need to be supplied essential commodities by airdrop on a weekly basis, as terrestrial communication routes do not exist.

It is fairly common to descry an IAF transport aircraft taking off and landing at all of the civilian airports of the NE. (I have noticed them almost everytime I have had to travel by air). And yes, these lifters include the IL-76s. It is the low availability of the IL-76 that prevents the IAF from deploying them regularly.

And finally, it's true that the tank will be an unlikely cargo for the transport fleet. But that's an added capability that allows rapid build up of heavy assets in a desolate area, should the need arise. This is of import when you consider that in favorable terrain, a single tank squadron can take on an entire infantry battalion. It allows us to stall for time, as we build up our infantry assets into the area.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

I think C-17 is a replacement for IL-76 fleet as IL-76 fleet is at the end of its service life (acquired in 80s). Any old plane requires more maintenance, so I agree that these are needed to be replaced. The issue is if IAF would have bought new IL-76s.

The IL-76 is a good plane too, specially the newer versions. I doubt uptime of C-17 is any greater than IL-76.

The problem is India does not use its transports much. The C-17 will also rust on the tarmac.

When they are used, it will be to ferry troops and supplies. The tank is a very rare cargo for these planes.

Il 76 isnt at the end of its service life. USAF uses even older transport planes. C17 is an expansion of transport fleet. We need airplanes of such size. I think the main reason for procuring C17 was defence diversification, and problem of spares when Il 76 is concerned.

 

[SilentKiller]

If production line is closing it means some new breed is coming soon

Nope, may be not now.
US has fulfilled its requirement of 200+ and Boeing is not getting more order, it will have to close the production line if no more come soon.

 

[SilentKiller]

I think C-17 is a replacement for IL-76 fleet as IL-76 fleet is at the end of its service life (acquired in 80s). Any old plane requires more maintenance, so I agree that these are needed to be replaced. The issue is if IAF would have bought new IL-76s.

The IL-76 is a good plane too, specially the newer versions. I doubt uptime of C-17 is any greater than IL-76.

The problem is India does not use its transports much. The C-17 will also rust on the tarmac.

When they are used, it will be to ferry troops and supplies. The tank is a very rare cargo for these planes.

How so?? India uses its transport fleet as per its needs.
How do think equipment reach Leh/Arunachal pradesh/Anadaman? Railways/Roads/Ships are not always the best options.
U don't know much then, Chandigarh is quite a big hub for transport.
Some facts u should know, during winters a lot of transport for leh is handled by Air and that too by IAF.
C 17 is operationally much cheaper and doesn't faces with spare issues, moreover it can take much larger payload then IL-76.
These Transports are not only meant for cargo of tanks but for long range transports of men and equipments, also quick transport.
C 17 performed better at higher altitudes and can land on unprepared landing strips while IL 76 lacks that ability.

 

[pmaitra]

pmaitra: I have already said that C-17 is a good plane. However usage of the plane in operations is also a necessity.

If C-17 ends up doing only what IL-76 can, and costs 4 time per piece, then it is not a smart buy.

Couple this with Uncle's propensity to sanction any country that remotely digresses from its diktat.

Please use the '@' symbol before the nomme-de-plume, so that I get notified. Like what @Kunal Biswas said, the operational costs are less with the C-17.

Both have their own advantages. We should not put all our eggs in one basket. We need to have both. This is because C-17 can be subjected to sanctions, and we could be deprived of spare parts.

IL-76MD may be cheaper but are more expensive to keep that is its maintenance over time and delays, In this way C-17 might have higher unit cost but has lower maintenance cost and with full supply of spares in time unlike Russians ..

How so?? India uses its transport fleet as per its needs.
How do think equipment reach Leh/Arunachal pradesh/Anadaman? Railways/Roads/Ships are not always the best options.
U don't know much then, Chandigarh is quite a big hub for transport.
Some facts u should know, during winters a lot of transport for leh is handled by Air and that too by IAF.
C 17 is operationally much cheaper and doesn't faces with spare issues, moreover it can much larger payload then IL-76.
These Transports are not only meant for cargo of tanks but for long range transports of men and equipments, also quick transport.
C 17 performed better at higher altitudes and can land on unprepared landing strips while IL 76 lacks that ability.

Agreed, except the "spare issue." The "spare issue" is a real problem with anything purchased from the west. I am not aware of spare issues with Ilyushin-76.

 

[SilentKiller]

You are relying on a series of assumptions to forward your point.

Firstly, there are no new IL-76s in the market.

Wherefrom did you get the idea that IAF doesn't use its transport fleet. Ignorance much? A significant number of forward deployed troops in Arunachal Pradesh are supplied exclusively by air, in addition to troops in Leh and Ladakh & of course Siachin. Infact, there exists entire civilian villages in Arunachal Pradesh that need to be supplied essential commodities by airdrop on a weekly basis, as terrestrial communication routes do not exist.

It is fairly common to descry an IAF transport aircraft taking off and landing at all of the civilian airports of the NE. (I have noticed them almost everytime I have had to travel by air). And yes, these lifters include the IL-76s. It is the low availability of the IL-76 that prevents the IAF from deploying them regularly.

And finally, it's true that the tank will be an unlikely cargo for the transport fleet. But that's an added capability that allows rapid build up of heavy assets in a desolate area, should the need arise. This is of import when you consider that in favorable terrain, a single tank squadron can take on an entire infantry battalion. It allows us to stall for time, as we build up our infantry assets into the area.

All correct but IL 76 has newer version its Il-476 or Il-76MD-90A.
For AWAC india still went with proven platform.
IL 76 lost in performance to C 17 that's why...no reason, IL 76 is great plane too and will remain in service for long time.

 

[SilentKiller]

Please use the '@' symbol before the nomme-de-plume, so that I get notified. Like what @Kunal Biswas said, the operational costs are less with the C-17.

Both have their own advantages. We should not put all our eggs in one basket. We need to have both. This is because C-17 can be subjected to sanctions, and we could be deprived of spare parts.





Agreed, except the "spare issue." The "spare issue" is a real problem with anything purchased from the west. I am not aware of spare issues with Ilyushin-76.

It had way back in 2010...but it got resolved. IAF went with C 17 as it performed much better than IL 76 on a number of parameters that's it.

 

[sgarg]

You are relying on a series of assumptions to forward your point.

Firstly, there are no new IL-76s in the market.

Wherefrom did you get the idea that IAF doesn't use its transport fleet. Ignorance much? A significant number of forward deployed troops in Arunachal Pradesh are supplied exclusively by air, in addition to troops in Leh and Ladakh & of course Siachin. Infact, there exists entire civilian villages in Arunachal Pradesh that need to be supplied essential commodities by airdrop on a weekly basis, as terrestrial communication routes do not exist.

It is fairly common to descry an IAF transport aircraft taking off and landing at all of the civilian airports of the NE. (I have noticed them almost everytime I have had to travel by air). And yes, these lifters include the IL-76s. It is the low availability of the IL-76 that prevents the IAF from deploying them regularly.

And finally, it's true that the tank will be an unlikely cargo for the transport fleet. But that's an added capability that allows rapid build up of heavy assets in a desolate area, should the need arise. This is of import when you consider that in favorable terrain, a single tank squadron can take on an entire infantry battalion. It allows us to stall for time, as we build up our infantry assets into the area.

1. The supply to forward deployed troops has to be made from helicopters and smaller planes with STOL.
2. The civilian airports you are talking about in NE are in cities that do have rail connectivity.
3. I do know IL-76 is used. I never said that heavy transport is not needed. India is a large country and air is the most effective means when you are in a hurry. My premise was excessive cost of C-17 platform.

 

[sgarg]

OK we have C-17s now. Can somebody find out the utilization rate of C-17 fleet.

Each type of aircraft is assigned certain number of flying hours per month. The actual depends on operational need and up-time of the aircraft.

Maintenance is a complex issue. Not enough attention was paid to maintenance when bulk purchases were made from Soviet Union till late 80s. Proper maintenance requires creation of infrastructure and availability of trained manpower in the country. So much of Soviet equipment has faced usability problems as the requisite spares levels were not built and/or domestic sources were not developed.

What is IAF or Indian industry knowledge-base on C-17. It is close to zero. It is an outright purchase of equipment where dependence on foreign supplier is 100%.

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

For your knowledge I would like to mention that there is no major rail connectivity to all NE states except a meter guage line to agartala and dibrugarh.so how will we take our logistics to NE border area in the time of surprising attack by China.so here c17 will come for our use.except c17 ,transportation of logistics through road to NE border will take at least 2 days .

 

[sgarg]

For your knowledge I would like to mention that there is no major rail connectivity to all NE states except a meter guage line to agartala and dibrugarh.so how will we take our logistics to NE border area in the time of surprising attack by China.so here c17 will come for our use.except c17 ,transportation of logistics through road to NE border will take at least 2 days .

The solution is pre-placement of war materiel in NE States. Air shipment in war time is very risky. Why do you think C-17 cannot be shot down.

The broad-guage rail should have higher priority compared to C-17 purchase. This is a strategic mistake of Indian government.

Tanks can be sent using road also on tank transporters.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

The solution is pre-placement of war materiel in NE States. Air shipment in war time is very risky. Why do you think C-17 cannot be shot down.

The broad-guage rail should have higher priority compared to C-17 purchase. This is a strategic mistake of Indian government.

Tanks can be sent using road also on tank transporters.

plans for broad gauge are being implemented and they are being constructed. but as all our projects its delayed too. also, even though C17 will primarily be operated in NE, they eill be used for other purposes also. latest examples would be JK and Uttarakhand Floods.

 

[sgarg]

I agree with you Dhairya, but would you not prefer 40 IL-76 for the same price. Will 40 IL-76 do more work or 10 C-17. Each plane has a significant down-time which reduces availability. So out of 10 C-17, only 4 will be available at one time. With the same ratio, you have 16 IL-76 available at the same time. Now which one will cover more operations.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

I agree with you Dhairya, but would you not prefer 40 IL-76 for the same price. Will 40 IL-76 do more work or 10 C-17. Each plane has a significant down-time which reduces availability. So out of 10 C-17, only 4 will be available at one time. With the same ratio, you have 16 IL-76 available at the same time. Now which one will cover more operations.

Il 76 is actually a very good plane. But after the collapse of Soviet Union, finding spares for the planes is a pain for IAF. Fighters dont witness this problem as we produce some spares here in India.
this was the main reason for purchasing C17 over Il76. much of Il76 fleet is in maintenance, always waiting for spares.
C17, although have much more expensive spares, would have a regular supply of them.

I disagree with your downtime figure. C17 is a much newer plane, so it wouldnt need extra maintenance time. Make that figure from 4 to 7, that would be more accurate.

 

[sgarg]

678 Kargil passengers airlifted in IL76 Lastupdate:- Tue, 5 Mar 2013 18:30:00 GMT GreaterKashmir.com

"Srinagar, Mar 4: At least 678 stranded passengers of Kargil were airlifted in IL76 Indian Air Force plane between Jammu-Leh and Srinagar-Leh, today, an official spokesman said."

This does not look like an IL-76 fleet that is grounded for spares. You would never risk so many civilians in an unsafe plane.

You forget how our forces work when they want to buy some expensive foreign toy. They will keep on making excuses and will keep on filling files with notings that denigrate their current stuff.

The import lobby is very strong and journalists are not difficult to buy in this country. I would trust government audit reports far more than random news in our newspapers.

 

[Bhadra]

For your knowledge I would like to mention that there is no major rail connectivity to all NE states except a meter guage line to agartala and dibrugarh.so how will we take our logistics to NE border area in the time of surprising attack by China.so here c17 will come for our use.except c17 ,transportation of logistics through road to NE border will take at least 2 days .

God save us if within our country and within our land borders we have to depend on air supplies as the major source of replenishment !! That is why infrastructure is very very important >

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

No doubt il76 is a good plane but we need to keep up with the changing time and advance technology .c17 fleet has advance technology and ew suit ,navigation system that il 76 do not have.but still I will say il76 has the capabilities to augment the c 17 fleet.