BrahMos Cruise Missile

StealthFlanker

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Wow............. You have done a lot of study. Good to see someone saying something on logic.
Thank you ,and i like that you listen instead of letting nationalistic attitude cloud your judgement. That a rare quality

Here I'd not delve much into maths as along with design parameters, readings and results does change a lot. The main issue which you are saying would be faced by any hypersonic flight would be that of drag. Now its not that designers have not thought and worked about it. Some simple form of reducing the induced drag due to high speed travel is as..

1- Aero spike based drag reduction.
2- Counter flow drag reduction.
3- Energy deposition and drag reduction.

Here are two of the links for reference.....

http://nptel.ac.in/courses/101103003/pdf/mod8.pdf
http://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5955&context=masters_theses.
If you read the abstract , those design help reduce drag problem at altitude of 30 km , not at sea level or even 1 km above sea level.


Now among the 3 methods you listed , only flow separation spike actually exist , the others 2 is just theoretical.The problem with aero spike is that it will melt and only reduce drag by 50% , which is not exactly that much consider the massive drag at sea level. It normally used on non air breathing missiles such as ICBM


For counter flow drag reduction, ask yourself this : what is the materials(liquid or gas ) would you use as your supersonic flow ? how much of them you will need to carry to sustain long distance hypersonic flight ?. Then another problem is the good old Newton law , for every action there is another equal and opposite reaction. In short , it like making a missile with nozzles at both side head and tail. It may work for ballistic missiles ( in theory), but i dont see the practical application for missiles in atmosphere.

For energy deposition , it has similar problem too , the idea is to use microwave to heat up a small volume of air in a specific distance in front of the missiles so that the shock wave will be separated from the body. But ask yourself this question :how much energy would you need to heat up the air in front of missiles ? remember the missiles is moving at hypersonic speed. The amount of energy would be tremendous , and you lose a plce for missiles seeker too.
 

Chinmoy

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Thank you ,and i like that you listen instead of letting nationalistic attitude cloud your judgement. That a rare quality


If you read the abstract , those design help reduce drag problem at altitude of 30 km , not at sea level or even 1 km above sea level.


Now among the 3 methods you listed , only flow separation spike actually exist , the others 2 is just theoretical.The problem with aero spike is that it will melt and only reduce drag by 50% , which is not exactly that much consider the massive drag at sea level. It normally used on non air breathing missiles such as ICBM


For counter flow drag reduction, ask yourself this : what is the materials(liquid or gas ) would you use as your supersonic flow ? how much of them you will need to carry to sustain long distance hypersonic flight ?. Then another problem is the good old Newton law , for every action there is another equal and opposite reaction. In short , it like making a missile with nozzles at both side head and tail. It may work for ballistic missiles ( in theory), but i dont see the practical application for missiles in atmosphere.

For energy deposition , it has similar problem too , the idea is to use microwave to heat up a small volume of air in a specific distance in front of the missiles so that the shock wave will be separated from the body. But ask yourself this question :how much energy would you need to heat up the air in front of missiles ? remember the missiles is moving at hypersonic speed. The amount of energy would be tremendous , and you lose a plce for missiles seeker too.
I do agree with what ever logic you have provided here on. But testing a hypersonic vehicle at 30 Km altitude doesn't mean that same speed or better could not be achieved at lower altitude. Drag would obviously result in lower range rather then speed. If we are to apply the drag and speed in case of active supersonic missile system, then by logic Brahmos should travel at Mach 2.8+ speed in Hi-Hi profile as in Lo-Lo profile it attains Mach 2.8. But it is not the case.

Similarly I am attaching files of X-15 test flights over here. Although these were manned flight and structurally and technically the vehicle is much different then any Hypersonic missile in development or test now, but its a good reference any how.

Flight 188 3 October 1967 4,519 mph (7,273 km/h) 19.3 mi (31.1 km) William J. "Pete" Knight
Flight 190 17 October 1967 3,856 mph (6,206 km/h) 53.1 mi (85.5 km) William J. "Pete" Knight

Source Wiki.....

Now here you could see that in test flight at a relatively lower altitude the vehicle at performed much better speed in comparison to at higher altitude.

X15_speed_altitude.jpg


Please have a look at this chart too. At lower altitude, performance of X-15 was far better then those at higher altitude. It means inspite of higher drag, X-15 performed better at lower altitude. Now all the test has been done at higher altitude doesn't mean that it would be ineffective at lower altitude or it can't perform at lower altitude in hypersonic speed. Yes, its range would be greatly affected at lower altitude. For range you need altitude.

In the mean time let me search for one chart which has been there of all the modern day hypersonic flight test. Unable to find it as of now.
 

StealthFlanker

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. But testing a hypersonic vehicle at 30 Km altitude doesn't mean that same speed or better could not be achieved at lower altitude.
A slightly lower altitude is possible but not significantly lower like from 30 km to sea level , the atmospheric condition different is too big

Drag would obviously result in lower range rather then speed. If we are to apply the drag and speed in case of active supersonic missile system, then by logic Brahmos should travel at Mach 2.8+ speed in Hi-Hi profile as in Lo-Lo profile it attains Mach 2.8. But it is not the case.
From what remember Brahmos maximum cruising speed is Mach 2.8 , altitude non-specific but if that the speed achieved at high altitude then sea level speed would be lower and vice versa

Similarly I am attaching files of X-15 test flights over here. Although these were manned flight and structurally and technically the vehicle is much different then any Hypersonic missile in development or test now, but its a good reference any how.

Flight 188 3 October 1967 4,519 mph (7,273 km/h) 19.3 mi (31.1 km) William J. "Pete" Knight
Flight 190 17 October 1967 3,856 mph (6,206 km/h) 53.1 mi (85.5 km) William J. "Pete" Knight

Source Wiki.....

Now here you could see that in test flight at a relatively lower altitude the vehicle at performed much better speed in comparison to at higher altitude.

View attachment 11634

Please have a look at this chart too. At lower altitude, performance of X-15 was far better then those at higher altitude. It means inspite of higher drag, X-15 performed better at lower altitude.
.
X-15 is a different case as it is a rocket not an airbreathing design. Rocket carry oxidizer inside so actually the higher the altitude , the faster they can go because drag is lower while their thrust is relatively the same. Now , obviously you will ask me " so why does X-15 achieve higher speed at lower altitude according to the chart. This is very simple ,you should have a look at X-15 , test flight profile. It doesnt take off by itself but relied on a B-52 to carry it to a certain altitude then released.However B-52 cant really fly higher than 45-50k feet, so what ever altitude you saw in the graph is achieved through zoom climb. Definition of a zoom climb is simple ,aircraft or rocket will trade their kinetic energy ( speed ) for potential energy ( altitude ) so as a result ,climb to higher altitude will lead to slower speed. But hypothetically let say if you have 2 X-15. One released at 50 K feet , one released at 100k feet , both accelerating in straight line then the one at 100K feet will be much faster.




Moving aways from X-15 , you are correct that higher altitude does not necessarily mean higher speed for air breathing missiles/aircrafts , because while drag is lower at high altitude , the thinner air will reduce thrust and lift too. With that being said , their maximum speed still often achieved at very high altitude, while various aircraft can fly faster than sound by 2-3 times. Their sea level speed doesnot differ that much only slightly faster than sound because the air is just too thick down there. For example :
F-15 flight envelope
l


Mig-25 flight envelope


SR-71 flight envelope


Those are fastest military aircraft every been in service but as you can see , they are all very slow at low altitude
 
Last edited:

Superdefender

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Indian Navy’s ultimate game-changer: BRAHMOS
— By FPJ Bureau | Dec 04, 2016 12:21 am
FOLLOW US:




Pegged as the world’s fastest and deadliest cruise missile, the highly manoeuvrable BRAHMOS is capable of engaging sea and land-based targets at extended ranges.

India, with its vast coastline of over 7,000 km, has enjoyed a unique geostrategic position in Asia. While the Indian Ocean has been regarded as its strategic backyard, the chain of Andaman and Nicobar islands on the east and the Lakshadweep islands on the west has helped the country maintain a forward maritime presence in the region.

With the Indian Navy rightfully aspiring to achieve “blue water” capability, the maritime prowess of India is undergoing a sea-change with the inclusion of modern naval platforms starting from aircraft carriers to nuclear and conventional submarines, missile frigates to small patrol craft along with cutting-edge weapons and systems.



An important tactical asset that has become a unique force multiplier for Indian Navy in recent times is the BRAHMOS supersonic cruise missile system. Pegged as the world’s fastest and deadliest cruise missile, the highly manoeuvrable BRAHMOS is capable of engaging sea and land-based targets at extended ranges.

In its anti-ship configuration, BRAHMOS is capable of flying just 3-4 meters above the sea surface, and hence can launch a surprise attack on enemy surface ships. The missile offers a wide range of strike options to the Navy as well – from sea-to-sea to sea-to-land to coast-to-sea and sub-sea-to-land (underwater version).

It has also proved its capability of being fired from a static or mobile naval platform in solo or salvo mode to engage multiple targets in different directions. The high speed, high precision missile carrying a large 300-kg warhead straightaway bangs on its target, thereby completely annihilating it.

The state-of-the-art 290-km-range weapon has been inducted in the Indian Navy since 2005. Already deployed on many of the Navy’s frontline platforms, BRAHMOS is also going to arm many future surface warfare ships in coming years.

With the entire Asia-Pacific region gaining centre stage in the rapidly evolving geostrategic landscape, the Indian Navy, by possessing a powerful strike missile like BRAHMOS, has further bolstered its maritime strength and presence while preparing itself for any possible maritime conflict in future.

And the invincible BRAHMOS has emerged as an ultimate game changer for India in deciding the outcome of any such future conflict.

Source Link: http://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/indian-navys-ultimate-game-changer-brahmos/981859
 

V_Force

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BRAHMOS MISSILE ASSEMBLY COMPLEX, HYDERABAD.View attachment 13071
Sir I appreciate ur knowledge and map reading, but this kind of sensitive material can also harm our national asset, national interest as well as security of these facilities. I know that is from google earth and you have no evil intentions, but we should applly restraint on our anthusiasm, and should not pin point Facilities of Strategic Importance.

I hope MEMBERS would not mind to myopinion and sense will prevail.
 

Indx TechStyle

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@Prashant12
Sir I appreciate ur knowledge and map reading, but this kind of sensitive material can also harm our national asset, national interest as well as security of these facilities. I know that is from google earth and you have no evil intentions, but we should applly restraint on our anthusiasm, and should not pin point Facilities of Strategic Importance.

I hope MEMBERS would not mind to myopinion and sense will prevail.
You guys may be glad to know that this info is already in public domain.:biggrin2:

Look at me, I even found out Chinese ASAT test site a month before, tracked pre assembled GSLV Mk3 at launch pad.
 

charlie

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Sir I appreciate ur knowledge and map reading, but this kind of sensitive material can also harm our national asset, national interest as well as security of these facilities. I know that is from google earth and you have no evil intentions, but we should applly restraint on our anthusiasm, and should not pin point Facilities of Strategic Importance.

I hope MEMBERS would not mind to myopinion and sense will prevail.
forget about that, you have all the frequency of mumbai police with each and every talk group listed on forum.

Talk about safety.

System Frequencies
Red (c) are primary control channels | Blue (a) are alternate control channels | Site Map(s): RR Locations


Site Name
001 (1) Central 01 861.100 02 862.300 03 862.550c 04 863.200 05 863.400 06 863.500
002 (2) Cross Maidan 01 861.600 02 861.750 03 861.800 04 862.150 05 862.350 06 863.450c
003 (3) North 01 862.200c 02 862.400 03 862.650 04 863.650

System Talkgroups
List All in one table Show New Talkgroups


Citywide Talkgroups


DEC AFS Mode Alpha Tag Description Tag
17 00-021 A COMMON Common - All Divisions Interop
18 00-022 A Common Common Interop

Zone 1 Talkgroups


DEC AFS Mode Alpha Tag Description Tag
417 03-041 A Primary Disp Primary Dispatch Law Dispatch
418 03-042 A Z1 Car-Car Car-to-Car Law Talk
419 03-043 A Secondary Di Secondary Dispatch Law Dispatch
421 03-045 A Crime Detect Crime Detection Law Talk
422 03-046 A Crime Detect Crime Detection Law Talk
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529 04-021 A Primary Disp Primary Dispatch Law Dispatch
531 04-023 A Secondary Di Secondary Dispatch Law Dispatch

Zone 3 Talkgroups


DEC AFS Mode Alpha Tag Description Tag
471 03-107 A Crime Detect Crime Detection Law Talk
472 03-110 A Crime Detect Crime Detection Law Talk
473 03-111 A CRIME DET Crime Detection Law Talk

Zone 6 Talkgroups


DEC AFS Mode Alpha Tag Description Tag
321 02-081 A Primary Disp Primary Dispatch Law Dispatch
322 02-082 A CAR-CAR Car-to-Car Law Talk
323 02-083 A Secondary Di Secondary Dispatch Law Dispatch
326 02-086 A Traffic Enfo Traffic Enforcement - Radar A Law Talk
327 02-087 A Traffic Enfo Traffic Enforcement - Radar B Law Talk
331 02-093 A Crime Detect Crime Detection Law Talk

Zone 8 Talkgroups


DEC AFS Mode Alpha Tag Description Tag
475 03-113 A CrimeDetect Crime Detection Law Talk

the most funny part of it is one time I was working on a project which should be classified but guess what even being an employee I didn't have the info that some forum had for the project I was working on.
 

safriz

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A factual Comparison between India's Brahmos Missile and Pakistan's Babur and Raad Cruise Missiles.

(A Re-post)

You may have seen #Indian netizens bragging endlessly about their private corporate co-production missile Brahmos.
The missile is a Russian company NPO and Indian private venture joint production. It is a rearranged P-800 from Russia. The P-800 in use with Russia has a range of 600 Km, but due to international regulations a country cannot export missiles of over 300 km range and cannot export nuclear missile of any range. Russians had to limit the Brahmos range to 295 Kilometers. All versions of Brahmos in use with India won't go beyond 295 kilometers. But there is a problem with this stated range.
The missile can only travel the full 295 kilometer if flying at 14 Kilometer altitude. Lower the flight altitude, lower the range. At low altitude the missile has lowest range of only 120 kilometers. That's because the missile is a supersonic missile and on paper being supersonic looks good but high speed has it's demerits. Once anything crosses the speed of sound it creates a shock wave or wall of compressed air in front of it which it has to keep pushing to move forward. That's because air simply can't get out of the way fast enough to make way for the missile , and accumulates. Higher the speed above sound and denser the wall of compressed air and more energy needed to push it. At higher altitudes air is thin and this effect is less pronounced. At lower altitude air is dense and the problem is magnified. That's why reduction in Brahmos range with reduced altitude .
For a missile flying that high to increase range, the stealth is compromised and enemy sees it from far away.
So in Brahmos case two main requirements for a cruise missile, range and stealth are compromised because it's supersonic. Other problem is invulnerability. Brahmos cannot make tight turns and cannot go round the mountains and buildings same as subsonic cruise missiles do to avoid detection and increase accuracy. It's just too fast to do that and can only make gentle adjustments to it's flight path.
No wonder most advanced armies prefer using a subsonic cruise missile, such as European Storm shadow, American Tomahawk and Pakistani Babur and Raad.
The other problem is cost and weight to range ratio. Brahmos being supersonic has to endure high levels of stress and heat due to air friction .Also the engine used to obtain supersonic speeds is called Ramjet engine, and it is, not fuel efficient. So the missile also carries far more fuel than a Subsonic missile.
For that reason it needs to be made of better and expensive alloys ,increasing cost and weight.
At 3 million a piece and weighing 3 tons for ground and naval version, the missile goes only 295 km, or less than half as far as Pakistan's babur.
Babur cruise missile only costs a few hundred thousand a piece and goes more than twice the range of Brahmos, while weighing less than half at 1.4 tons.
The bulky missile also cannot carry much explosives and only has a warhead of 250 Kg compared to Babur's 350 Kg.
It is argued that the missile compensates for carrying less explosives by kinetic energy of impact which is very high and can cause substantial damage.
But we did calculate kinetic energy of impact for Pakistan airforce's anti ship missile CM-400AKG and it was 200Kg equivalent of explosives when the CM-400AKG impacts target at Mach 5.
Brahmos impact speed is about half that.
Stipulating by theses known parameters Brahmos will have total destructive power of 250kg warhead and another 100 kg equivalent of warhead power, making its impact and warhead explosion equivalent of 350 kg of chemical explosives. That's same as Babur albeit at much lower costs.
Every missile needs a launcher and so does Brahmos. It wasn't difficult or expensive to fit a few trucks with Brahmos land version tubular launchers, the problem arises when India wanted to introduce sea and air versions of Brahmos. The missile was just too big in length and breadth to be able to be fitted on any Indian naval platform without major modifications to the ship or submarine. A total of 13 Indian Navy ships have been fitted with Brahmos Ship to Ship and Ship to shore missiles. But the problem of range remains as it is. To fire the missile in sea skimming mode or a Combination of High altitude and low altitude flight the Indian Navy ships will have to come within less than 200 Kilometers of enemy Ships or coast. That will be well within range of Pakistan Navy's C-802 Missiles. The Brahmos will also lose stealth as mentioned earlier and very much likely to become a target of Pakistan Navy's 5000 Rounds per minute CIWS automated guns.
However it can be argued that anti ship capability is the only viable characteristic of Brahmos. Pakistan is using much cheaper options such as C-802 and now home made Zarb Missile.
About Submarine Launch of Barhmos. A submerged pontoon test fire of the missile was conducted in 2013 and hailed successful. But the missile needs special Launch tubes or Vertical Launch system VLS, as the missile is too wide for Submarine Torpedo tubes.These special wide vertical tubes will have to be retro fitted on existing Indian submarines. that is an extremely expensive undertaking and the time frame needed to do the job is many months taking the submarine out of service. No such attempts have been made and no Indian submarine is even undergoing any conversion for Brahmos launch.
On the other hand Pakistan built Babur Cruise missiles keeping in view Submarine design and dimensions. A standard Submarine Torpedo tube is 533 Millimeters in diameter. Babur Cruise missile was kept narrow at 520 Millimeter diameter,so that it could be fitted in an existing Pakistani submarine Torpedo tube without any significant and expensive modification to the submarine. The capability was first demonstrated on 09th of January 2017 when an unspecified submarine launched a Babur cruise missile from Torpedo tube. The only modification required to the submarine was to the software of fire control system.
About Air launch Brahmos. The Private firm Brahmos corporation did modify the missile for air launch. Reducing the weight from 3 Tons to 2.5 Tons and developing a special rail to be fitted to Indian jets.
Trouble was that Indian air force had no jets capable of lifting an 8 meter long 25000 Kilo missile. The largest Indian airforce jet the SU-30MKI simply doesn't have enough structural strength to hang 2.5 tons on a single hard point.
The solution was to modify the jets specially for Carrying Brahmos. Again an expensive undertaking. But Indian Government did agree to pay for the project. A total of 40 IAF SU-30 had to be structurally strengthened for carrying a single the missile under the belly . Additional metal frames had to be welded to the jet to increase strength,making it heavy and effecting overall performance,reducing range. So far only one such jet has been handed over to IAF and completing modification on 39 more will take many more years.
So in effect so far only one IAF jet can carry and fire a Brahmos. It's another thing that even that hasn't been done yet and the project is still experimental .But IAF jets are not ready as explained above,and no deliveries have been made by Brahmos manufacturer.

On the other hand the whole fleet of Pakistan's Mirage jets can carry and fire one Raad cruise missile from under the belly hard point. Thus making#Pakistan air force Nuclear capable,while no such capability exists among Indian air force.No According to reports India has made arrangements with Russia to increase the range of Brahmos.. For doing that, all existing Brahmos missiles in the Indian arsenal will have to go back to the factory and refitted and reprogrammed. Whenever that happens, the missile will attain a maximum range of what Russian version of P-800 had, a maximum range of 600 kilometre at altitude, decreasing to less than 200 kilometre if the missile is sent on sea skimming or low flying mode.. However work hasn't started on the project yet. #IAF has put a requisition for 200 Air launched versions of #Brahmos.
On the other hand, being subsonic, both babur and Raad maintain the range in all flight profiles. 700 + km for Babur and 350+ Km for raad. The Pakistani air launched cruise missile Raad also carries much heavier warhead of 450 kg than Brahmo 250 kg
No wonder India is trying to make a subsonic cruise missile now, the Nirbhay, which is a few years away from induction.
 

Tarun Kumar

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A factual Comparison between India's Brahmos Missile and Pakistan's Babur and Raad Cruise Missiles.

(A Re-post)

You may have seen #Indian netizens bragging endlessly about their private corporate co-production missile Brahmos.
The missile is a Russian company NPO and Indian private venture joint production. It is a rearranged P-800 from Russia. The P-800 in use with Russia has a range of 600 Km, but due to international regulations a country cannot export missiles of over 300 km range and cannot export nuclear missile of any range. Russians had to limit the Brahmos range to 295 Kilometers. All versions of Brahmos in use with India won't go beyond 295 kilometers. But there is a problem with this stated range.
The missile can only travel the full 295 kilometer if flying at 14 Kilometer altitude. Lower the flight altitude, lower the range. At low altitude the missile has lowest range of only 120 kilometers. That's because the missile is a supersonic missile and on paper being supersonic looks good but high speed has it's demerits. Once anything crosses the speed of sound it creates a shock wave or wall of compressed air in front of it which it has to keep pushing to move forward. That's because air simply can't get out of the way fast enough to make way for the missile , and accumulates. Higher the speed above sound and denser the wall of compressed air and more energy needed to push it. At higher altitudes air is thin and this effect is less pronounced. At lower altitude air is dense and the problem is magnified. That's why reduction in Brahmos range with reduced altitude .
For a missile flying that high to increase range, the stealth is compromised and enemy sees it from far away.
So in Brahmos case two main requirements for a cruise missile, range and stealth are compromised because it's supersonic. Other problem is invulnerability. Brahmos cannot make tight turns and cannot go round the mountains and buildings same as subsonic cruise missiles do to avoid detection and increase accuracy. It's just too fast to do that and can only make gentle adjustments to it's flight path.
No wonder most advanced armies prefer using a subsonic cruise missile, such as European Storm shadow, American Tomahawk and Pakistani Babur and Raad.
The other problem is cost and weight to range ratio. Brahmos being supersonic has to endure high levels of stress and heat due to air friction .Also the engine used to obtain supersonic speeds is called Ramjet engine, and it is, not fuel efficient. So the missile also carries far more fuel than a Subsonic missile.
For that reason it needs to be made of better and expensive alloys ,increasing cost and weight.
At 3 million a piece and weighing 3 tons for ground and naval version, the missile goes only 295 km, or less than half as far as Pakistan's babur.
Babur cruise missile only costs a few hundred thousand a piece and goes more than twice the range of Brahmos, while weighing less than half at 1.4 tons.
The bulky missile also cannot carry much explosives and only has a warhead of 250 Kg compared to Babur's 350 Kg.
It is argued that the missile compensates for carrying less explosives by kinetic energy of impact which is very high and can cause substantial damage.
But we did calculate kinetic energy of impact for Pakistan airforce's anti ship missile CM-400AKG and it was 200Kg equivalent of explosives when the CM-400AKG impacts target at Mach 5.
Brahmos impact speed is about half that.
Stipulating by theses known parameters Brahmos will have total destructive power of 250kg warhead and another 100 kg equivalent of warhead power, making its impact and warhead explosion equivalent of 350 kg of chemical explosives. That's same as Babur albeit at much lower costs.
Every missile needs a launcher and so does Brahmos. It wasn't difficult or expensive to fit a few trucks with Brahmos land version tubular launchers, the problem arises when India wanted to introduce sea and air versions of Brahmos. The missile was just too big in length and breadth to be able to be fitted on any Indian naval platform without major modifications to the ship or submarine. A total of 13 Indian Navy ships have been fitted with Brahmos Ship to Ship and Ship to shore missiles. But the problem of range remains as it is. To fire the missile in sea skimming mode or a Combination of High altitude and low altitude flight the Indian Navy ships will have to come within less than 200 Kilometers of enemy Ships or coast. That will be well within range of Pakistan Navy's C-802 Missiles. The Brahmos will also lose stealth as mentioned earlier and very much likely to become a target of Pakistan Navy's 5000 Rounds per minute CIWS automated guns.
However it can be argued that anti ship capability is the only viable characteristic of Brahmos. Pakistan is using much cheaper options such as C-802 and now home made Zarb Missile.
About Submarine Launch of Barhmos. A submerged pontoon test fire of the missile was conducted in 2013 and hailed successful. But the missile needs special Launch tubes or Vertical Launch system VLS, as the missile is too wide for Submarine Torpedo tubes.These special wide vertical tubes will have to be retro fitted on existing Indian submarines. that is an extremely expensive undertaking and the time frame needed to do the job is many months taking the submarine out of service. No such attempts have been made and no Indian submarine is even undergoing any conversion for Brahmos launch.
On the other hand Pakistan built Babur Cruise missiles keeping in view Submarine design and dimensions. A standard Submarine Torpedo tube is 533 Millimeters in diameter. Babur Cruise missile was kept narrow at 520 Millimeter diameter,so that it could be fitted in an existing Pakistani submarine Torpedo tube without any significant and expensive modification to the submarine. The capability was first demonstrated on 09th of January 2017 when an unspecified submarine launched a Babur cruise missile from Torpedo tube. The only modification required to the submarine was to the software of fire control system.
About Air launch Brahmos. The Private firm Brahmos corporation did modify the missile for air launch. Reducing the weight from 3 Tons to 2.5 Tons and developing a special rail to be fitted to Indian jets.
Trouble was that Indian air force had no jets capable of lifting an 8 meter long 25000 Kilo missile. The largest Indian airforce jet the SU-30MKI simply doesn't have enough structural strength to hang 2.5 tons on a single hard point.
The solution was to modify the jets specially for Carrying Brahmos. Again an expensive undertaking. But Indian Government did agree to pay for the project. A total of 40 IAF SU-30 had to be structurally strengthened for carrying a single the missile under the belly . Additional metal frames had to be welded to the jet to increase strength,making it heavy and effecting overall performance,reducing range. So far only one such jet has been handed over to IAF and completing modification on 39 more will take many more years.
So in effect so far only one IAF jet can carry and fire a Brahmos. It's another thing that even that hasn't been done yet and the project is still experimental .But IAF jets are not ready as explained above,and no deliveries have been made by Brahmos manufacturer.

On the other hand the whole fleet of Pakistan's Mirage jets can carry and fire one Raad cruise missile from under the belly hard point. Thus making#Pakistan air force Nuclear capable,while no such capability exists among Indian air force.No According to reports India has made arrangements with Russia to increase the range of Brahmos.. For doing that, all existing Brahmos missiles in the Indian arsenal will have to go back to the factory and refitted and reprogrammed. Whenever that happens, the missile will attain a maximum range of what Russian version of P-800 had, a maximum range of 600 kilometre at altitude, decreasing to less than 200 kilometre if the missile is sent on sea skimming or low flying mode.. However work hasn't started on the project yet. #IAF has put a requisition for 200 Air launched versions of #Brahmos.
On the other hand, being subsonic, both babur and Raad maintain the range in all flight profiles. 700 + km for Babur and 350+ Km for raad. The Pakistani air launched cruise missile Raad also carries much heavier warhead of 450 kg than Brahmo 250 kg
No wonder India is trying to make a subsonic cruise missile now, the Nirbhay, which is a few years away from induction.
I am aghast at your lack of knowledge of many technical issues:
1) Brahmos always had a range of 600km . It was never tested at that range due to MTCR restrictions but those restrictions do not apply now as India has joined MTCR. Infact India had conducted 1 test of brahmos at 600km range even before it joined MTCR.
2) Brahmos does not need to fly at low altitude as there is no air defence system in Pakistan or China's inventory which can intercept it. Babur which flies at speed of a 737 jett plane can easily be taken down by Barak or even Akash AD system of India. Even its low flight altitude is no longer a hindrance as India has Israeli Aerostat radars which can detect even the minutest objects meters from surface of earth.
3) The recent Babur test was a fake. U cannot change fire control systems of Agosta Submarines as source codes are with French and we have confirmation that no such source codes were shared with Pakistanis. That video was a Shang class submarine firing a Chinese cruise missile (from which Babur is derived) which was doctored. However it only proves how deeply involved China is in nuclear proliferation and this would do wonders to Chinese and Paki application to MTCR
4) India has tested Brahmos from both ships and Subs to its full range.

Beyond that a lot of your points are plain wrong and cooked up. This goes to show how technically inferior Pakis are.
 

Bornubus

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A factual Comparison between India's Brahmos Missile and Pakistan's Babur and Raad Cruise Missiles.

(A Re-post)

You may have seen #Indian netizens bragging endlessly about their private corporate co-production missile Brahmos.
The missile is a Russian company NPO and Indian private venture joint production. It is a rearranged P-800 from Russia. The P-800 in use with Russia has a range of 600 Km, but due to international regulations a country cannot export missiles of over 300 km range and cannot export nuclear missile of any range. Russians had to limit the Brahmos range to 295 Kilometers. All versions of Brahmos in use with India won't go beyond 295 kilometers. But there is a problem with this stated range.
The missile can only travel the full 295 kilometer if flying at 14 Kilometer altitude. Lower the flight altitude, lower the range. At low altitude the missile has lowest range of only 120 kilometers. That's because the missile is a supersonic missile and on paper being supersonic looks good but high speed has it's demerits. Once anything crosses the speed of sound it creates a shock wave or wall of compressed air in front of it which it has to keep pushing to move forward. That's because air simply can't get out of the way fast enough to make way for the missile , and accumulates. Higher the speed above sound and denser the wall of compressed air and more energy needed to push it. At higher altitudes air is thin and this effect is less pronounced. At lower altitude air is dense and the problem is magnified. That's why reduction in Brahmos range with reduced altitude .
For a missile flying that high to increase range, the stealth is compromised and enemy sees it from far away.
So in Brahmos case two main requirements for a cruise missile, range and stealth are compromised because it's supersonic. Other problem is invulnerability. Brahmos cannot make tight turns and cannot go round the mountains and buildings same as subsonic cruise missiles do to avoid detection and increase accuracy. It's just too fast to do that and can only make gentle adjustments to it's flight path.
No wonder most advanced armies prefer using a subsonic cruise missile, such as European Storm shadow, American Tomahawk and Pakistani Babur and Raad.
The other problem is cost and weight to range ratio. Brahmos being supersonic has to endure high levels of stress and heat due to air friction .Also the engine used to obtain supersonic speeds is called Ramjet engine, and it is, not fuel efficient. So the missile also carries far more fuel than a Subsonic missile.
For that reason it needs to be made of better and expensive alloys ,increasing cost and weight.
At 3 million a piece and weighing 3 tons for ground and naval version, the missile goes only 295 km, or less than half as far as Pakistan's babur.
Babur cruise missile only costs a few hundred thousand a piece and goes more than twice the range of Brahmos, while weighing less than half at 1.4 tons.
The bulky missile also cannot carry much explosives and only has a warhead of 250 Kg compared to Babur's 350 Kg.
It is argued that the missile compensates for carrying less explosives by kinetic energy of impact which is very high and can cause substantial damage.
But we did calculate kinetic energy of impact for Pakistan airforce's anti ship missile CM-400AKG and it was 200Kg equivalent of explosives when the CM-400AKG impacts target at Mach 5.
Brahmos impact speed is about half that.
Stipulating by theses known parameters Brahmos will have total destructive power of 250kg warhead and another 100 kg equivalent of warhead power, making its impact and warhead explosion equivalent of 350 kg of chemical explosives. That's same as Babur albeit at much lower costs.
Every missile needs a launcher and so does Brahmos. It wasn't difficult or expensive to fit a few trucks with Brahmos land version tubular launchers, the problem arises when India wanted to introduce sea and air versions of Brahmos. The missile was just too big in length and breadth to be able to be fitted on any Indian naval platform without major modifications to the ship or submarine. A total of 13 Indian Navy ships have been fitted with Brahmos Ship to Ship and Ship to shore missiles. But the problem of range remains as it is. To fire the missile in sea skimming mode or a Combination of High altitude and low altitude flight the Indian Navy ships will have to come within less than 200 Kilometers of enemy Ships or coast. That will be well within range of Pakistan Navy's C-802 Missiles. The Brahmos will also lose stealth as mentioned earlier and very much likely to become a target of Pakistan Navy's 5000 Rounds per minute CIWS automated guns.
However it can be argued that anti ship capability is the only viable characteristic of Brahmos. Pakistan is using much cheaper options such as C-802 and now home made Zarb Missile.
About Submarine Launch of Barhmos. A submerged pontoon test fire of the missile was conducted in 2013 and hailed successful. But the missile needs special Launch tubes or Vertical Launch system VLS, as the missile is too wide for Submarine Torpedo tubes.These special wide vertical tubes will have to be retro fitted on existing Indian submarines. that is an extremely expensive undertaking and the time frame needed to do the job is many months taking the submarine out of service. No such attempts have been made and no Indian submarine is even undergoing any conversion for Brahmos launch.
On the other hand Pakistan built Babur Cruise missiles keeping in view Submarine design and dimensions. A standard Submarine Torpedo tube is 533 Millimeters in diameter. Babur Cruise missile was kept narrow at 520 Millimeter diameter,so that it could be fitted in an existing Pakistani submarine Torpedo tube without any significant and expensive modification to the submarine. The capability was first demonstrated on 09th of January 2017 when an unspecified submarine launched a Babur cruise missile from Torpedo tube. The only modification required to the submarine was to the software of fire control system.
About Air launch Brahmos. The Private firm Brahmos corporation did modify the missile for air launch. Reducing the weight from 3 Tons to 2.5 Tons and developing a special rail to be fitted to Indian jets.
Trouble was that Indian air force had no jets capable of lifting an 8 meter long 25000 Kilo missile. The largest Indian airforce jet the SU-30MKI simply doesn't have enough structural strength to hang 2.5 tons on a single hard point.
The solution was to modify the jets specially for Carrying Brahmos. Again an expensive undertaking. But Indian Government did agree to pay for the project. A total of 40 IAF SU-30 had to be structurally strengthened for carrying a single the missile under the belly . Additional metal frames had to be welded to the jet to increase strength,making it heavy and effecting overall performance,reducing range. So far only one such jet has been handed over to IAF and completing modification on 39 more will take many more years.
So in effect so far only one IAF jet can carry and fire a Brahmos. It's another thing that even that hasn't been done yet and the project is still experimental .But IAF jets are not ready as explained above,and no deliveries have been made by Brahmos manufacturer.

On the other hand the whole fleet of Pakistan's Mirage jets can carry and fire one Raad cruise missile from under the belly hard point. Thus making#Pakistan air force Nuclear capable,while no such capability exists among Indian air force.No According to reports India has made arrangements with Russia to increase the range of Brahmos.. For doing that, all existing Brahmos missiles in the Indian arsenal will have to go back to the factory and refitted and reprogrammed. Whenever that happens, the missile will attain a maximum range of what Russian version of P-800 had, a maximum range of 600 kilometre at altitude, decreasing to less than 200 kilometre if the missile is sent on sea skimming or low flying mode.. However work hasn't started on the project yet. #IAF has put a requisition for 200 Air launched versions of #Brahmos.
On the other hand, being subsonic, both babur and Raad maintain the range in all flight profiles. 700 + km for Babur and 350+ Km for raad. The Pakistani air launched cruise missile Raad also carries much heavier warhead of 450 kg than Brahmo 250 kg
No wonder India is trying to make a subsonic cruise missile now, the Nirbhay, which is a few years away from induction.

Range won't bother us anymore since India became a member of MTCR. Brahmos range can easily be extended to hit Maryam Nawaz p$%##y sitting in Islamabad or even beyond with pinpoint accuracy.


You should worry about our guided Rocket artillery (Pinaka and Smerch) capable to hit most of your cities again with pinpoint accuracy.


Also, Prahar which is superior to Russian Tochka. If older Tochka create such a Mayhem in Yemen imagine what will Prahar do with Porkistan.
 

Bornubus

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Brahmos cannot make tight turns and cannot go round the mountains and buildings
Someone educate this Paki about Steep Diving capability of Brahmos capable of 75 degree dive (gearing to 90 degree dive ) and hit the targets well beyond mountain ranges. Already deployed for your masters Chinese.



Now eat your words.
 

Tarun Kumar

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The way Chinese are getting desperate at Indian military success by testing a cruise missile from their own sub and showing it as paki missile, we should be under no illusion that these shang class subs with cruise missiles will be deployed near Paki waters soon.Also China may give Paki Asat capability as well to respond to Indian development of IRNSS. Therefore we must build more long range Pinaka rockets that do not need satellite guidance. I mean who cares if 1000 pakis die as collateral damage to Pinaka 's destruction of GHQ
 

DingDong

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A factual Comparison between India's Brahmos Missile and Pakistan's Babur and Raad Cruise Missiles.

(A Re-post)

You may have seen #Indian netizens bragging endlessly about their private corporate co-production missile Brahmos.
The missile is a Russian company NPO and Indian private venture joint production. It is a rearranged P-800 from Russia. The P-800 in use with Russia has a range of 600 Km, but due to international regulations a country cannot export missiles of over 300 km range and cannot export nuclear missile of any range. Russians had to limit the Brahmos range to 295 Kilometers. All versions of Brahmos in use with India won't go beyond 295 kilometers. But there is a problem with this stated range.
The missile can only travel the full 295 kilometer if flying at 14 Kilometer altitude. Lower the flight altitude, lower the range. At low altitude the missile has lowest range of only 120 kilometers. That's because the missile is a supersonic missile and on paper being supersonic looks good but high speed has it's demerits. Once anything crosses the speed of sound it creates a shock wave or wall of compressed air in front of it which it has to keep pushing to move forward. That's because air simply can't get out of the way fast enough to make way for the missile , and accumulates. Higher the speed above sound and denser the wall of compressed air and more energy needed to push it. At higher altitudes air is thin and this effect is less pronounced. At lower altitude air is dense and the problem is magnified. That's why reduction in Brahmos range with reduced altitude .
For a missile flying that high to increase range, the stealth is compromised and enemy sees it from far away.
So in Brahmos case two main requirements for a cruise missile, range and stealth are compromised because it's supersonic. Other problem is invulnerability. Brahmos cannot make tight turns and cannot go round the mountains and buildings same as subsonic cruise missiles do to avoid detection and increase accuracy. It's just too fast to do that and can only make gentle adjustments to it's flight path.
No wonder most advanced armies prefer using a subsonic cruise missile, such as European Storm shadow, American Tomahawk and Pakistani Babur and Raad.
The other problem is cost and weight to range ratio. Brahmos being supersonic has to endure high levels of stress and heat due to air friction .Also the engine used to obtain supersonic speeds is called Ramjet engine, and it is, not fuel efficient. So the missile also carries far more fuel than a Subsonic missile.
For that reason it needs to be made of better and expensive alloys ,increasing cost and weight.
At 3 million a piece and weighing 3 tons for ground and naval version, the missile goes only 295 km, or less than half as far as Pakistan's babur.
Babur cruise missile only costs a few hundred thousand a piece and goes more than twice the range of Brahmos, while weighing less than half at 1.4 tons.
The bulky missile also cannot carry much explosives and only has a warhead of 250 Kg compared to Babur's 350 Kg.
It is argued that the missile compensates for carrying less explosives by kinetic energy of impact which is very high and can cause substantial damage.
But we did calculate kinetic energy of impact for Pakistan airforce's anti ship missile CM-400AKG and it was 200Kg equivalent of explosives when the CM-400AKG impacts target at Mach 5.
Brahmos impact speed is about half that.
Stipulating by theses known parameters Brahmos will have total destructive power of 250kg warhead and another 100 kg equivalent of warhead power, making its impact and warhead explosion equivalent of 350 kg of chemical explosives. That's same as Babur albeit at much lower costs.
Every missile needs a launcher and so does Brahmos. It wasn't difficult or expensive to fit a few trucks with Brahmos land version tubular launchers, the problem arises when India wanted to introduce sea and air versions of Brahmos. The missile was just too big in length and breadth to be able to be fitted on any Indian naval platform without major modifications to the ship or submarine. A total of 13 Indian Navy ships have been fitted with Brahmos Ship to Ship and Ship to shore missiles. But the problem of range remains as it is. To fire the missile in sea skimming mode or a Combination of High altitude and low altitude flight the Indian Navy ships will have to come within less than 200 Kilometers of enemy Ships or coast. That will be well within range of Pakistan Navy's C-802 Missiles. The Brahmos will also lose stealth as mentioned earlier and very much likely to become a target of Pakistan Navy's 5000 Rounds per minute CIWS automated guns.
However it can be argued that anti ship capability is the only viable characteristic of Brahmos. Pakistan is using much cheaper options such as C-802 and now home made Zarb Missile.
About Submarine Launch of Barhmos. A submerged pontoon test fire of the missile was conducted in 2013 and hailed successful. But the missile needs special Launch tubes or Vertical Launch system VLS, as the missile is too wide for Submarine Torpedo tubes.These special wide vertical tubes will have to be retro fitted on existing Indian submarines. that is an extremely expensive undertaking and the time frame needed to do the job is many months taking the submarine out of service. No such attempts have been made and no Indian submarine is even undergoing any conversion for Brahmos launch.
On the other hand Pakistan built Babur Cruise missiles keeping in view Submarine design and dimensions. A standard Submarine Torpedo tube is 533 Millimeters in diameter. Babur Cruise missile was kept narrow at 520 Millimeter diameter,so that it could be fitted in an existing Pakistani submarine Torpedo tube without any significant and expensive modification to the submarine. The capability was first demonstrated on 09th of January 2017 when an unspecified submarine launched a Babur cruise missile from Torpedo tube. The only modification required to the submarine was to the software of fire control system.
About Air launch Brahmos. The Private firm Brahmos corporation did modify the missile for air launch. Reducing the weight from 3 Tons to 2.5 Tons and developing a special rail to be fitted to Indian jets.
Trouble was that Indian air force had no jets capable of lifting an 8 meter long 25000 Kilo missile. The largest Indian airforce jet the SU-30MKI simply doesn't have enough structural strength to hang 2.5 tons on a single hard point.
The solution was to modify the jets specially for Carrying Brahmos. Again an expensive undertaking. But Indian Government did agree to pay for the project. A total of 40 IAF SU-30 had to be structurally strengthened for carrying a single the missile under the belly . Additional metal frames had to be welded to the jet to increase strength,making it heavy and effecting overall performance,reducing range. So far only one such jet has been handed over to IAF and completing modification on 39 more will take many more years.
So in effect so far only one IAF jet can carry and fire a Brahmos. It's another thing that even that hasn't been done yet and the project is still experimental .But IAF jets are not ready as explained above,and no deliveries have been made by Brahmos manufacturer.

On the other hand the whole fleet of Pakistan's Mirage jets can carry and fire one Raad cruise missile from under the belly hard point. Thus making#Pakistan air force Nuclear capable,while no such capability exists among Indian air force.No According to reports India has made arrangements with Russia to increase the range of Brahmos.. For doing that, all existing Brahmos missiles in the Indian arsenal will have to go back to the factory and refitted and reprogrammed. Whenever that happens, the missile will attain a maximum range of what Russian version of P-800 had, a maximum range of 600 kilometre at altitude, decreasing to less than 200 kilometre if the missile is sent on sea skimming or low flying mode.. However work hasn't started on the project yet. #IAF has put a requisition for 200 Air launched versions of #Brahmos.
On the other hand, being subsonic, both babur and Raad maintain the range in all flight profiles. 700 + km for Babur and 350+ Km for raad. The Pakistani air launched cruise missile Raad also carries much heavier warhead of 450 kg than Brahmo 250 kg
No wonder India is trying to make a subsonic cruise missile now, the Nirbhay, which is a few years away from induction.
Typical Paki trait: If you cannot convince yourself, then confuse yourself :rofl:.

The only credible defense Pakistan has got against India are it's nukes, had Pakistan not been bearing them we would have walked all over Pakistan by now.

I am not even going to counter your "cooked up" facts, that will be wastage of my time and effort, I will allow your Paki brain to snort those numbers and remain high.

Brahmos is a tactical missile, primarily intended to be used against the hardened, well-protected enemy assets. Brahmos can pierce through the enemy defenses and counter-measures, that is it's strength.

As far as Nirbhaya is concerned, different platform, different mission, different configuration.
 

Tarun Kumar

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Actually even nukes are not an insurance. Nukes that Paki have will cause real damage only if fired on crowded cities. What if India launches a war after evacuating cities like Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore etc (which will take 3-5 days). Pakis are unlikely to use strategic nukes which will invite their own destruction at hands of India in a surprise attack as they cannot destroy Indian missiles which are hidden in hardened nuke bases deep underground. The overpressure required to destroy only one such base is like 10 Megaton. India has probably uncountable number of such sites to disperse and harden its nuke infrastructure. There is a reason why we spend so much on our nuke programme. The main insurance for Pakis are Chinese. The recent moves by Chinese clearly indicate that China is now moving to overt support to pakiland from covert support. It is therefore vital that we build our military capability like there is no tomorrow.
 

HariPrasad-1

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1) Brahmos always had a range of 600km . It was never tested at that range due to MTCR restrictions but those restrictions do not apply now as India has joined MTCR. Infact India had conducted 1 test of brahmos at 600km range even before it joined MTCR.
Brahmos had a range of 600 KM in hi hi mode and saraswat himself had reveal this. He had also said that A5's range can be extended. He said make is 6000 if you want a 6000 KM range missile. Make it 7000 KM if you need a 7000 KM range missile. He did not mentioned 8000 but said that its range can be increased as per our requirement.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Range won't bother us anymore since India became a member of MTCR. Brahmos range can easily be extended to hit Maryam Nawaz p$%##y sitting in Islamabad or even beyond with pinpoint accuracy.


You should worry about our guided Rocket artillery (Pinaka and Smerch) capable to hit most of your cities again with pinpoint accuracy.


Also, Prahar which is superior to Russian Tochka. If older Tochka create such a Mayhem in Yemen imagine what will Prahar do with Porkistan.
When we will launch it from sukhoi, It will hit the @$$ of bajwa doing genocide in Baluchistan.
 

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