BrahMos Cruise Missile

[rishivashista13]

I listen to a video comparing Indian and Chinese navy. It praised Brahmos a lot and added further that when Brahmos 2 will come in, it will be impossible to intercept it with even laser. Chinese navy shall have no option but to surrender.

Yes , that's because of speed . In case of Bhramos 2 , After detection , you will only have about 15 seconds to impact . In that small time you have to ready , aim , fire and intercept .
Almost impossible ..........

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[StealthFlanker]

Yes , that's because of speed . In case of Bhramos 2 , After detection , you will only have about 15 seconds to impact .

That is absolutely not possible , supersonic missiles need to cruise at higher altitude due to drag ( especially if missiles flying at Mach 5 , it wont be sea skimming ), so the radar horizon will be alot bigger , they will be detect from much further distance compared to subsonic one.

 

[rishivashista13]

That is absolutely not possible , supersonic missiles need to cruise at higher altitude due to drag ( especially if missiles flying at Mach 5 , it wont be sea skimming ), so the radar horizon will be alot bigger , they will be detect from much further distance compared to subsonic one.

Bhramos can achieve a hight of 10 meters . Is it not enough !!

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[Chinmoy]

That is absolutely not possible , supersonic missiles need to cruise at higher altitude due to drag ( especially if missiles flying at Mach 5 , it wont be sea skimming ), so the radar horizon will be alot bigger , they will be detect from much further distance compared to subsonic one.

You are right here when talking about supersonic missile in general. But in case of Brahmos II things are bit different. As opposed to Brahmos, its smaller in size and more over it does perform something like barrel role to spread the heat across its surface. Now in hypersonic missile the biggest threat is of drag induced temperature, but the testing for that has already been done.
But inspite of all these, I am not sure if it could be sea skirming like Brahmos. It should atleast fly at an altitude of minimum 1000m as oppose to that of Brahmos at 10m. But this way too, it would not be wise to fire it in solo mode. Best bet would be to fire it in salvo mode.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Bhramos can achieve a hight of 10 meters . Is it not enough !!

That is Brahmos I, where it cruise around mach 2.5-2.9, Not the alleged Brahmos II that can reach Mach 7-10, there is no way you can reach that speed in sea skimming. And 10 meters sea skimming still much higher than subsonic missiles

 

[StealthFlanker]

But in case of Brahmos II things are bit different. As opposed to Brahmos, its smaller in size and more over it does perform something like barrel role to spread the heat across its surface.

Even if it is as small as an AIm-120, it wont be able to cruise at mach 7-10 near sea level, the thrust that needed to overcome the drag would be enormous and induced heat too (rolling the missiles will do absolutely nothing because the missiles will always be at 0 AoA to minimize drag, unlike a space shuttle)

Now in hypersonic missile the biggest threat is of drag induced temperature, but the testing for that has already been done.

Not at sea level, hypersonic at higher altitude

 

[Chinmoy]

Even if it is as small as an AIm-120, it wont be able to cruise at mach 7-10 near sea level, the thrust that needed to overcome the drag would be enormous and induced heat too (rolling the missiles will do absolutely nothing because the missiles will always be at 0 AoA to minimize drag, unlike a space shuttle)



Not at sea level, hypersonic at higher altitude

Seems you only read half of what I've written. Here is the second half.

But inspite of all these, I am not sure if it could be sea skirming like Brahmos. It should atleast fly at an altitude of minimum 1000m as oppose to that of Brahmos at 10m. But this way too, it would not be wise to fire it in solo mode. Best bet would be to fire it in salvo mode.

I agree that unlike Brahmos, it would not be able to fly as low as 10m.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Seems you only read half of what I've written. Here is the second half.



I agree that unlike Brahmos, it would not be able to fly as low as 10m.

Say for example for SPY-1 , radar mass height is about 15 meters above sea surface , an object flying at 1 meters above the sea ( subsonic sea skimming missiles )will have radar horizon of about 10 km , while an object flying at 1000 meters above the sea will has radar horizon of about 146 km ). That is about 7 times different. Anyways , to reach Mach 10 , Brahmos II will have to cruise at higher altitude , 1000 meters is not enough

 

[Chinmoy]

Say for example for SPY-1 , radar mass height is about 15 meters above sea surface , an object flying at 1 meters above the sea ( subsonic sea skimming missiles )will have radar horizon of about 10 km , while an object flying at 1000 meters above the sea will has radar horizon of about 146 km ). That is about 7 times different. Anyways , to reach Mach 10 , Brahmos II will have to cruise at higher altitude , 1000 meters is not enough

That's the very reason why I mentioned that these would work best only in salvo mode. Main aim of supersonic missiles are to saturate your defence system.
Moreover Hypersonic missiles would be more effective in lower altitude rather then higher altitude because of the air density as we know that these do consume huge amount of atmospheric air to sustain its burn. Theoretically Brahmos too is ineffective at low altitude, but it has repeatedly been tested at sea skirming altitude. So what would be the minimum flight altitude of Brahmos II is somewhat we could say only after it undergoes trials and tests. But till then I would put my money on the range of 1km min altitude.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Moreover Hypersonic missiles would be more effective in lower altitude rather then higher altitude because of the air density as we know that these do consume huge amount of atmospheric air to sustain its burn.

You only need to generate as much thrust as required to overcome drag. Which is why aircraft top speed often achieved at high altitude rather than 1 km above sea level......
Btw , air density at 1 km and at sea level is not that different

 

[Defcon 1]

That is absolutely not possible , supersonic missiles need to cruise at higher altitude due to drag ( especially if missiles flying at Mach 5 , it wont be sea skimming ), so the radar horizon will be alot bigger , they will be detect from much further distance compared to subsonic one.

In that case, what is even the point of developing Brahmos 2?
Kh15 which can reach Mach 5, exists from the 1980s
Whole point of Brahmos was that it is sea skimming at Mach 3, thus avoiding radar detection until it is too late.

Why develop high altitude cruising Brahmos 2 when similar missiles already exist?

 

[Chinmoy]

You only need to generate as much thrust as required to overcome drag. Which is why aircraft top speed often achieved at high altitude rather than 1 km above sea level......
Btw , air density at 1 km and at sea level is not that different

Now you can't compare an aircraft engine with that of an scramjet engine. For any scramjet to work properly, you need to create a shock wave in front of it so that the incoming air jet travels at supersonic speed inside the scramjet engine. Along with that you need a volume of that to suck in.
Now it might not attain a minimum altitude of 1000 m, but no way it is going to fly at an altitude of 10000 m.

 

[StealthFlanker]

In that case, what is even the point of developing Brahmos 2?
Kh15 which can reach Mach 5, exists from the 1980s
Whole point of Brahmos was that it is sea skimming at Mach 3, thus avoiding radar detection until it is too late.

Why develop high altitude cruising Brahmos 2 when similar missiles already exist?

Kh-15 cannot maintain mach 5 over the whole flight , mach 5 is its terminal velocity when it dive down .A scramjet missiles can maintain hypersonic speed for much longer time, and they have generally much better specific impulse compared to rocket engine => better range

 

[StealthFlanker]

For any scramjet to work properly, you need to create a shock wave in front of it so that the incoming air jet travels at supersonic speed inside the scramjet engine. .

You got that in reverse order
1) with all air-breathing engine that work at supersonic speed you will have shock wave at the inlet
2) the air already travel into the inlet at supersonic speed , in turbofan , turbojet and ramjet engine the air is slowed down to subsonic speed before combustion , generally with the help of shockwave created by inlet. By contrast , on scramjet engine , air is keep at supersonic speed

Now it might not attain a minimum altitude of 1000 m, but no way it is going to fly at an altitude of 10000 m.

Have a look at X-43 , scramjet engine , Mach 9.6 top speed , cruise at altitude of over 95.000-113.000 ft (29-33 km )

Or better the X-51 that look exactly like Brahmos ii ,also use scramjet engine , cruise at at Mach 5 (3,300 mph; 5,300 km/h), at altitude of 70,000 feet (21,000 m)

 

[Chinmoy]

You got that in reverse order
1) with all air-breathing engine that work at supersonic speed you will have shock wave at the inlet
2) the air already travel into the inlet at supersonic speed , in turbofan , turbojet and ramjet engine the air is slowed down to subsonic speed before combustion , generally with the help of shockwave created by inlet. By contrast , on scramjet engine , air is keep at supersonic speed

Have a look at X-43 , scramjet engine , Mach 9.6 top speed , cruise at altitude of over 95.000-113.000 ft (29-33 km )

Or better the X-51 that look exactly like Brahmos ii ,also use scramjet engine , cruise at at Mach 5 (3,300 mph; 5,300 km/h), at altitude of 70,000 feet (21,000 m)

Now no where it is written that Scramjet can't operate at low altitude. If you look at X-51, after releasing from the pylon, it is powered by rocket motor to reach supersonic speed and at that point its scramjet take over in reentry phase. So the point is, it requires a dense atmospheric presence to work.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Now no where it is written that Scramjet can't operate at low altitude. If you look at X-51, after releasing from the pylon, it is powered by rocket motor to reach supersonic speed and at that point its scramjet take over in reentry phase. So the point is, it requires a dense atmospheric presence to work.

It doesnot require dense air to work as i showed you both X-41 and X-51 cruised at very high altitude , it required supersonic stream to work , because there is no other mean of compression in a scramjet engine rather than the supersonic shockwave.
Scramjet doesnot work at sea level because drag would be too high , you wont generate enough thrust and the heat generated due to cruising at Mach 7-10 at sea level would be enormous

 

[Chinmoy]

For any scramjet to work properly, you need to create a shock wave in front of it so that the incoming air jet travels at supersonic speed inside the scramjet engine.

Now you said the same what I told earlier......

it required supersonic stream to work , because there is no other mean of compression in a scramjet engine rather than the supersonic shockwave.

As far as drag and heat is concerned, drag is more of a challenge then heat. That's the very reason that Scramjet is structurally different then other conventional missiles. If drag would have been such an issue at low level, no one would have thought of investing so much in scramjet R&D for weapon tech.

Anyhow what we are currently talking about is more of assumption and tits and bits for entirely different models. Lets wait for some truly RAMJET powered missile to come forward.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Now you said the same what I told earlier......

It sounds the same but it is actually fundermentally different.
1) the shockwave will be there regardless of altitude ( unless there is literally no air), so your notion that scramjet only work at low altitude is wrong
2) You dont "create" supersonic air stream, supersonic air stream simply the results of missiles propelled to supersonic speed, non moving parts engines like Ramjet, scramjet need this stream to compressed the air which is why they always have a rocket booster.

As far as drag and heat is concerned, drag is more of a challenge then heat. That's the very reason that Scramjet is structurally different then other conventional missiles.

No amount of structure chage can help your missiles overcome the enormous drag of crusing at Mach 10 at sea level. And air breathing missiles are more much more draggy compared to rocket propelled missiles too.
Fd = Cd x A x 0.5 x P x V^2
P = Density of Air (kg/m^3) ; ~1.225kg/m^3 at sea level;
V = Velocity (m/s) ; Mach 1 = 340 m/s @ sea level; so Mach 10 =3400 m/s
Cd = Co-efficient of Drag ; ~ 0.6 to 0.95 for rockets depending mostly on finnage,
nose and tail profile
A = Sectional Area (m^2)
the drag would be more than a million Newton for a tiny missiles. And you have to sustain that thrust too.

If drag would have been such an issue at low level, no one would have thought of investing so much in scramjet R&D for weapon tech.

No, that because no one planned to have a Mach 10 cruise missiles at sea level period. Scramjet missiles are nit designed to sea skimming, they go fast but at high altitude

Anyhow what we are currently talking about is more of assumption and tits and bits for entirely different models. Lets wait for some truly RAMJET powered missile to come forward.

There are loads of ramjet missiles in existence already. But they cant fight against physics.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

BrahMos Cruise Missile To Be Inducted Into IAF’s Arsenal After March 2017

Land based version of the BrahMos missile. Photo credit: RAVEENDRAN/AFP/GettyImages

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will get a modified version of the BrahMos cruise missile added to its arsenal after March 2017, Praveen Pathak, an official representative of BrahMos Aerospace told
RIA Novosti, a leading Russian news agency.

Over the past two years, the air version of the BrahMos cruise missile, developed jointly by India and Russia, is being continuously tested in India on the Su-30MKI plane. The naval and land versions of the missile have already been added to the armoury of their respective wings in the Indian Armed Forces.

"Adopting the BrahMos air-based missile will be done after March 2017, when the missile test analysis with the Su-30MKI for marine and terrestrial targets is carried out," Pathak said at an arms exhibition Indo Defence 2016.

Pathak said the two-year cycle of tests, which included building a launch pad for missiles and the Su-30MKI, and bench tests on the ground will be completed in March, with the launch of the Su-30MKI missiles for ground targets. At the same time, Pathak noted that for experts who conducted the tests, it was important to compensate for the vibration shocks that occurred.

"We were able to compensate for the vibration due to the new technologies that have been used by the BrahMos. These technologies are unique in the world", said the BrahMos representative.

In September 2010, India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of aircraft comprising 40 Su-30MKI air dominance fighters. In October 2012, the Cabinet Committee on Security gave the permission to make structural and software modifications on 42 Su-30MKIs and acquire 216 air-launched BrahMos missiles.

Using BrahMos will allow the IAF to engage targets from beyond the effective range of enemy weapons and attack enemy objectives protected by air defence.

Watch here, SU-30 MKIs’ first flight with BrahMos-A:

 

[Chinmoy]

It sounds the same but it is actually fundermentally different.
1) the shockwave will be there regardless of altitude ( unless there is literally no air), so your notion that scramjet only work at low altitude is wrong
2) You dont "create" supersonic air stream, supersonic air stream simply the results of missiles propelled to supersonic speed, non moving parts engines like Ramjet, scramjet need this stream to compressed the air which is why they always have a rocket booster.



No amount of structure chage can help your missiles overcome the enormous drag of crusing at Mach 10 at sea level. And air breathing missiles are more much more draggy compared to rocket propelled missiles too.
Fd = Cd x A x 0.5 x P x V^2
P = Density of Air (kg/m^3) ; ~1.225kg/m^3 at sea level;
V = Velocity (m/s) ; Mach 1 = 340 m/s @ sea level; so Mach 10 =3400 m/s
Cd = Co-efficient of Drag ; ~ 0.6 to 0.95 for rockets depending mostly on finnage,
nose and tail profile
A = Sectional Area (m^2)
the drag would be more than a million Newton for a tiny missiles. And you have to sustain that thrust too.


No, that because no one planned to have a Mach 10 cruise missiles at sea level period. Scramjet missiles are nit designed to sea skimming, they go fast but at high altitude

There are loads of ramjet missiles in existence already. But they cant fight against physics.

Wow............. You have done a lot of study. Good to see someone saying something on logic. Here I'd not delve much into maths as along with design parameters, readings and results does change a lot. The main issue which you are saying would be faced by any hypersonic flight would be that of drag. Now its not that designers have not thought and worked about it. Some simple form of reducing the induced drag due to high speed travel is as..

1- Aero spike based drag reduction.
2- Counter flow drag reduction.
3- Energy deposition and drag reduction.

Here are two of the links for reference.....

http://nptel.ac.in/courses/101103003/pdf/mod8.pdf
http://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5955&context=masters_theses
http://scholarsmine.mst.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5955&context=masters_theses
So you see, drag would always be there, but its not something which couldn't be counter. Obviously range of any missile flying at an lower altitude would be much less then that flying at anything high. But its not impossible to achieve Mach 5 at lower altitude because of Drag and Heat.
Moreover I believe that Brahmos II would have to fly at an higher altitude like Brahmos if it wants to fly long, but at lower altitude, its flight distance would be much less just like Brahmos.