StealthFlanker
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There are so many misinformation that i cant help but chime in
2- Terminal phase maneuver is hardly something that specific to Brahmos , even the early version of the Harpoon has that capability
About intercepting of supersonic threat , US Navy has a bunch of supersonic decoys that they practice interception on such as MA-31 ( mach 3) , MQM-8 ( mach 2.5) , GQM-163 ( mach 4) , AQM-37C (mach 4) , hardly something new to them.
whatever platfrom that carried the Brahmos will be detected by AWACs the moment it get over the horizon since we cant put Brahmos on stealth aircraft yet, so no , you cannot expect the missiles or the platform carry it to get within 150 km from the ship.
And ship will not have 1/3 time to react compared to subsonic missiles , you only take distance/speed into account , but reaction time depend alot on detection range. So what affect detection range ?
Firstly is the radar horizon .Because subsonic missiles can sea skimming at much lower altitude compared to supersonic one ( imagine how easy it would be to crash the missiles into the ocean if you flying too low ),the destroyer can detect them from much shorter distance
For example: Against SPY-1 radar height of about 17 meters above the sea
P-270 Moskit in full sea skimming mode fly at 20 meters above the sea thus the radar horizon is 35 km , Moskit reaches Mach 3 at a high altitude and its maximum low-altitude speed is M2.2 , so in sea skimming mode it take 47 seconds from detection until missiles hit
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/moskit.htm
P-500 BAZALT in full sea skimming mode fly at about > 10 meters above the sea thus the radar horizon is 30 km , P-500 reaches Mach 2 at high altitude , while low-altitude speed is Mach 1.5 so in sea skimming mode it take 59 seconds from detection until missiles hit
http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz_7.html
P-700 GRANIT in full sea skimming mode fly at about > 10 meters above the sea thus the radar horizon is 30 km , P-700 reaches Mach 2.5 at high altitude , while low-altitude speed is Mach 1.6 so in sea skimming mode it take 55 seconds from detection until missiles hit
http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz_7.html
also BrahMos according to their officials website can reach mach 3 , however cruise altitude is 15 km ( only at terminal phased it reduced to 10 meter) thus the radar horizon is 522 km so technically speaking , it will be detected right after launch , it may be able to follow a full sea skimming profile but not any better than P-700 in that aspect
http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10
AS-16 Kickback climbs to an altitude of about 40,000 m (130,000 ft) and then dives in on the target, accelerating to a speed of about Mach 5 ,so the radar horizon is 841 km
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ssia/as-16.htm
Kh-22 In low-altitude mode, it climbs to 12,000 m (39,000 ft) and makes a shallow dive at about Mach 3.5, making the final approach at an altitude under 500 m (1,600 ft) so the radar horizon is 468 km
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/as-4.htm
Subsonic missiles like NSM , RBS-15 in sea skimming mode can fly only 1 meter above water so the radar horizon is 21 km , with speed of mach 0.95 it takes 65 seconds from detection until missiles hit ( ignore stealth )
Using AWACS or fighters can eliminate radar horizon problem but there are others factor
Second factor that affect detection range is signature :
1-Subsonic antiship missiles have much smaller RCS than supersonic missiles , not only due to their smaller size , they also have an easier time using radar absorbing material and shaping as there is almost no requirement for heat resistance material. Radar will also have easier time pick out supersonic missiles from clutters due to significant dopper shift involved with high speed
2-Subsonic antiship missiles have much smaller thermal signature both in term of skin friction and engine heat , thermal sensor will detect supersonic missiles from much higher distance
3-supersonic anti-ship missiles use active radar seeker , which mean they will always show up on ELINT system , unlike subsonic missiles which can do a silent attack
2- Higher speed , same G limit mean smaller turn rate. So if a subsonic and a supersonic antiship missiles both rated for same G limit ( which is unlikely due to weight different), the subsonic one will have much more erratic maneuver, there is no free lunch
1- faster target are not harder to track and detect , by contrast they are much easier to detect due to doppler shift differentMach 3 (2500-3000 km/hr) speed (which makes it very difficult to detect and track)
S-manoeuver just a few seconds before impact (which makes interception very difficult)
2- Terminal phase maneuver is hardly something that specific to Brahmos , even the early version of the Harpoon has that capability
Absolute nonsense , supersonic threat is nothing new , Kh-22 developed by soviet can reach speed up to mach 5 since 1962.There is a lot of rumor that the BrahMos is impossible to shoot down. This is mainly due to the fact that NATO missile defense systems were prepared to handle Mach 1-1.5 speed Anti-Ship missiles which Russia possessed during the Cold War. But after the Mach 2-3 speed Onyx/BrahMos was developed, it surprised the western world and it is unknown what specific measures have been taken to handle this supersonic threat.
About intercepting of supersonic threat , US Navy has a bunch of supersonic decoys that they practice interception on such as MA-31 ( mach 3) , MQM-8 ( mach 2.5) , GQM-163 ( mach 4) , AQM-37C (mach 4) , hardly something new to them.
SM-2, SM-6 newest block has maximum range about 460 km , ESSM has range about 50 km , both SM-2 and ESSM use Interrupted Continuous Wave Illumination technology which mean the illuminator doesnt have to illuminated target all the way until impact , missiles can be guided by datalink and CW illuminators only used in final phase. SM-6 has active seeker so that enough said.The US Navy uses the SM-2 as its standard long range SAM on its destroyers. It has a range of 90+ km and uses a semi-active homing radar seeker which means that the mechanically scanning illuminators on board the warships should provide them with guidance. This proves to be a handicap as a Burke carries 3 centrally mounted SPG-62 illuminators which will find it difficult to deal with a multi directional missile attack.
This is nothing more than hot air nonsenseNormally, once the missile is detected at longer ranges if its following a high altitude profile, multiple SM-2 missiles are launched to counter the threat. 2-3 SAMs are fired against subsonic threats, so it is safe to assume that 4-5 SAMs will be fired at a single incoming BrahMos missile.
this is absolute BS , even ESSM was used to intercept target flying at mach 4 before (AQM-37) , SM-2 can be used to intercept theater ballistic missiles moving at around mach 8-10 , a target moving at mach 3 is nothingAgain, the SM-2 wasn’t designed to handle a missile flying at 3 times the speed of sound but designed to handle Soviet missiles flying at 1-1.5 times the speed of sound.
Ffs , who wrote this ?Let us consider a scenario in which a Burke class destroyer escorting a carrier battle group (CBG) is faced with a swarm of 8 BrahMos/Yakhont Anti-Ship missiles. Once the missiles are detected by the AWACS at 150+ km from the ship, the usual procedure would be to direct fighter jets from a nearby carrier towards the missile to shoot it down. But in this case, the missile is traveling at 3 times the speed of sound. Fighter jets will have 1/3 the time to react when compared to facing subsonic missiles. Hence the chances of a successful shoot down by fighters is less. .
whatever platfrom that carried the Brahmos will be detected by AWACs the moment it get over the horizon since we cant put Brahmos on stealth aircraft yet, so no , you cannot expect the missiles or the platform carry it to get within 150 km from the ship.
And ship will not have 1/3 time to react compared to subsonic missiles , you only take distance/speed into account , but reaction time depend alot on detection range. So what affect detection range ?
Firstly is the radar horizon .Because subsonic missiles can sea skimming at much lower altitude compared to supersonic one ( imagine how easy it would be to crash the missiles into the ocean if you flying too low ),the destroyer can detect them from much shorter distance
For example: Against SPY-1 radar height of about 17 meters above the sea
P-270 Moskit in full sea skimming mode fly at 20 meters above the sea thus the radar horizon is 35 km , Moskit reaches Mach 3 at a high altitude and its maximum low-altitude speed is M2.2 , so in sea skimming mode it take 47 seconds from detection until missiles hit
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/moskit.htm
P-500 BAZALT in full sea skimming mode fly at about > 10 meters above the sea thus the radar horizon is 30 km , P-500 reaches Mach 2 at high altitude , while low-altitude speed is Mach 1.5 so in sea skimming mode it take 59 seconds from detection until missiles hit
http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz_7.html
P-700 GRANIT in full sea skimming mode fly at about > 10 meters above the sea thus the radar horizon is 30 km , P-700 reaches Mach 2.5 at high altitude , while low-altitude speed is Mach 1.6 so in sea skimming mode it take 55 seconds from detection until missiles hit
http://www.vectorsite.net/twcruz_7.html
also BrahMos according to their officials website can reach mach 3 , however cruise altitude is 15 km ( only at terminal phased it reduced to 10 meter) thus the radar horizon is 522 km so technically speaking , it will be detected right after launch , it may be able to follow a full sea skimming profile but not any better than P-700 in that aspect
http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10
AS-16 Kickback climbs to an altitude of about 40,000 m (130,000 ft) and then dives in on the target, accelerating to a speed of about Mach 5 ,so the radar horizon is 841 km
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ssia/as-16.htm
Kh-22 In low-altitude mode, it climbs to 12,000 m (39,000 ft) and makes a shallow dive at about Mach 3.5, making the final approach at an altitude under 500 m (1,600 ft) so the radar horizon is 468 km
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/as-4.htm
Subsonic missiles like NSM , RBS-15 in sea skimming mode can fly only 1 meter above water so the radar horizon is 21 km , with speed of mach 0.95 it takes 65 seconds from detection until missiles hit ( ignore stealth )
Using AWACS or fighters can eliminate radar horizon problem but there are others factor
Second factor that affect detection range is signature :
1-Subsonic antiship missiles have much smaller RCS than supersonic missiles , not only due to their smaller size , they also have an easier time using radar absorbing material and shaping as there is almost no requirement for heat resistance material. Radar will also have easier time pick out supersonic missiles from clutters due to significant dopper shift involved with high speed
2-Subsonic antiship missiles have much smaller thermal signature both in term of skin friction and engine heat , thermal sensor will detect supersonic missiles from much higher distance
3-supersonic anti-ship missiles use active radar seeker , which mean they will always show up on ELINT system , unlike subsonic missiles which can do a silent attack
If the Brahmos climb to high altitude at the start , it will be detected by SPY-1 at that phase , Brahmos isn't a stealthy missile after all so low altitude at terminal phase only isnt enoughBrahMos will be detected at about 25-30 km from the ship when it is in it’s sea-skimming terminal phase..
Given that Brahmos doesnt start maneuver until terminal phase , it is basically a non maneuver , non jamming target, PK of a single SAM would be closer to 80-90%. Practically there are decoys to fool those active radar guided Brahmos tooWe have 4 SAMs targeting each BrahMos missile and the probability of interception is ‘theoretically’ 100%. Practically, the BrahMos may break through these defenses.
The big flaw is to assume that the Burke will not be returning fire , if you consider 2 destroyers facing off against each other without any third party support , their radar horizon would be the same. The moment Russian or Indian destroyer detect it , they will be detected themselves. Both SM-2 and ESSM are dual role missiles that can be used again both air and surface target , now the question is which one will reach target first , those SM-2 and ESSM or Brahmos ? given that SAM accelerate much quicker compared to antiship missiles.But there’s a big flaw in this if you haven’t noticed. Firing 24 ESSM takes 24 seconds, 4 ESSM will target 1 BrahMos, so 24 of these can target 6 BrahMos and by that time the last few ESSM have been fired, there are still 2 BrahMos missiles left untargeted and speeding towards the Burke. So what’s the flaw? Think ……….If 16 BrahMos missiles (the capacity of new gen Russian frigates and Indian destroyers) were fired instead of 8, the defense of the Burke would be saturated if it’s operating alone.
The Phalanx CIWS and Softkill countermeasures would probably manage to counter 2 more BrahMos, but then you have 6 remaining supersonic anti-ship missiles with 300 kg semi-armor piercing warheads ramming at full speed into a 9000 ton destroyer. Hence we can assume the saturation limit for a single Burke stands at 12 BrahMos missiles approaching simultaneously. So if it goes one-on-one with a Russian frigate or Indian destroyer carrying 16 BrahMos, it’s not returning home.
This estimation based on the assumption that SM-2 need constant CW illumination from start to finish , Burker class has no missiles with their own sensors , E-2 cant guide SM-2 , fighters cant guide missiles at different target at the same time. All of those assumptions are wrong. The exact value is not disclosed for obvious reasons, but considering a CBG will have 3 AEGIS equipped escorts in wartime, 48 fighters with 8 on Combat Air Patrol (CAP)and 2 E-2s will be airborne for providing Over The Horizon (OTH) radar coverage, the saturation limit for this CBG will be around 64 BrahMos missiles.
This assumes that time to react only depend on range to target , which is not true. Detect stealth anti-ship missiles are very hard even at close rangeThe target ship has around 5-10 seconds to react if it’s a supersonic AShM and around 20-30 seconds to react if it’s a subsonic AShM because the range of these SAMs is in the 10-15 km category. A volley of 8-12 point defense SAMs are usually fired in order to shoot down 2-3 incoming AShMs.
The reason for this is low , slow flying missiles are hard to detect in sea clutter. Neither are really true for BrahmosIt has a max range of 3 km and an effective range of 1.5 km when dealing with low flying cruise missiles.
1- Brahmos isnt the only missiles with terminal phase maneuver , all anti ship have some forms of itIt doesn’t end here, BrahMos performs an S-manoeuver in its final few km of flight. This makes it extremely difficult for Phalanx to get a lock on BrahMos. It will have less than 2 seconds to lock on to a maneuvering target flying at 3 times the speed of sound. It is practically impossible for the Phalanx to shoot down BrahMos
2- Higher speed , same G limit mean smaller turn rate. So if a subsonic and a supersonic antiship missiles both rated for same G limit ( which is unlikely due to weight different), the subsonic one will have much more erratic maneuver, there is no free lunch