BrahMos Cruise Missile

[Armand2REP]

Wrong! Ramjet ejects pressurized hot gas as a result of imperfect combustion of pressurized air and fuel.

Not wrong, ramjets have nozzles to regulate air flow and the combustion is much more efficient than rocket motors. The "plume" is several times less.

Radar does not detect heat but it is sensitive to thermal gradients produced by the hot emission and aerodynamically heated skin.
Even a humble weather radar is able to detect thermal gradients.

How much of a thermal gradient do you think a sea-skimming missile is going to create? This isn't a storm front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-71_Blackbird

Don't waste my time reading wiki

Finally, look at graphic on the top left corner of the Erieye brochure it clearly shows a cruise missile between 180-200 km.
Subsonic cruise missiles are a lot harder to detect for the following reasons:

1. Launch occurs at distances greater than the detection range of radars protecting the target.
2. In comparison to supersonic ASCM, subsonic missiles are capable of lower altitude terrain hugging or sea skimming profile.

Brahmos is 3m off the ocean's surface. Erieye is only capable of detecting cruise missiles at 180km max and that isn't for the extreme sea skimmers. It falls considerably closer when talking about Brahmos, 180km is for something that flies at a higher approach like Sandbox, Shipwrecker, Sea Eagle... ect. Not all AWACs are as advanced as Erieye either.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

If you say so - disbelief is your prerogative, you claim the Brahmos will go undetected because a submarine got close to an aircraft carrier during DEFCON 5 peace time protocol =omg=.
In any case I'm done talking about the Brahmos, folks here are too emotional to present rationale plausible arguments.

appearing during a training exercise where the best technology is present to detect subs,and still remaining undetected?? No explanation except it was peace time?? how many nations interfere in another nations exercise ??

 

[nrj]

It needs to realized that as the projectile delivery technology has progressed rapidly & still developing vigorously, to counter them parallel defense systems are not achieved. It requires entire new generation perspective to obtain reliable defense against present/ upcoming Hypersonic missiles. These missiles will beat conventional defense system; if not individually, definitely in saturation scenario.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

It needs to realized that as the projectile delivery technology has progressed rapidly & still developing vigorously, to counter them parallel defense systems are not achieved. It requires entire new generation perspective to obtain reliable defense against present/ upcoming Hypersonic missiles. These missiles will beat conventional defense system; if not individually, definitely in saturation scenario.

If WW2 era SCUDS are a problem for the latest high tech systems, Supersonic and hypersonic missiles will remain uninterceptable for a long time, even if a 10 missiles are used costing 3 million dollars each to bring down a carrier worth 10 billion or more the cost is relatively low. I still don't understand how a missile flying at MACH 2.5 can chase down
an intercept a missile flying MACH 3 or how the seeker on this missile would be better than a seeker on a beyond visual range missile which cost 10 times more??

 

[nrj]

If WW2 era SCUDS are a problem for the latest high tech systems, Supersonic and hypersonic missiles will remain uninterceptable for a long time, even if a 10 missiles are used costing a 1 million dollars each to bring down a carrier worth 10 billion or more the cost is relatively low. I still don't understand how a missile flying at MACH 2.5 can chase down
an intercept a missile flying MACH 3 or how the seeker on this missile would be better than a seeker on a beyond visiual range missile which cost 10 times more??

Exactly. Even if these missiles cost little high, their Salvo attack will pull down any active setup. It was rightly said by author i posted earlier -

A new F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter costs $50 million and USS FORD will carry 90. But for the cost of just two Hornets an enemy can buy three dozen BrahMos missiles, enough to put the entire battlegroup out of action.

 

[p2prada]

Do you believe a USN carrier fleet will allow an MKI wielding three Brahmos to get anywhere close to launch range?

The SM-2 capabilities are limited. Maybe a salvo of ESSM missiles will do the job. But, by the time the ESSM is fully operational, IN will start operationalizing the hypersonic version of Brahmos.

The SM-2 is simply too slow to react to a supersonic missile, especially against something that is continuously flying at full power like the Brahmos. The Brahmos has a Ramjet engine while the SM-2 has the old solid fuelled rocket engines. The difference is simply too much. The ramjet engines are always powered while the SM-2's engines reach full speed only in the final phase of their flight.

Anyway, you never know what can happen in a war. A bunch of jags "sank" the Nimitz during Operation Malabar in the Bay of Bengal. So, a MKI or even a PAKFA reaching its target cannot be ruled out.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/i...-f18s-return-the-favour-to-ins-viraat/215163/

As the small green dots approached closer on the radar screen, the Indian officer sitting deep inside USS Nimitz knew it was too late to save the ship. Jaguar maritime fighters of the Indian Air Force (IAF), operating from the Car Nicobar air base, had managed to come dangerously within striking range to successfully launch anti-ship missiles on the super carrier.

The missiles on the jags were the older generation subsonic missiles. Also, the exercise saw the use of 3 aircraft carriers a lot of supporting vessels and 200 aircraft. So, I don't think a carrier battlegroup is as strong as you imagine. You need to get lucky just once.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Don't waste my time reading wiki

How about declassified CIA files?

Lockheed's new entry was much like its first, but with several modifications and a new designator, A-12. It too, would employ two of the powerful J58 engines. Lockheed's major innovation in reducing radar return was a cesium additive in the fuel, which decreased the radar cross section of the afterburner plume. This improvement had been proposed by Edward Purcell of the Land committee. Desiring to save weight, Kelly Johnson had decided not to construct the A-12 out of steel. Traditional lightweight metals such as aluminum were out of the question because they could not stand the heat that would be generated as the A-12 flew at Mach 3.2, so Johnson chose a titanium alloy.

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/a12.html

Not wrong, ramjets have nozzles to regulate air flow and the combustion is much more efficient than rocket motors. The "plume" is several times less.

Several times less as compared to conventional solid or liquid fueled rockets - yes. But still enough to register on the radar.

How much of a thermal gradient do you think a sea-skimming missile is going to create? This isn't a storm front.

You are kidding right? Which storm do you know of that heats the air by 200 deg C? If the Brahmos passes you at a few feet flying at Mach 2.8 the sonic shock wave is enough to disintegrate your body.

The complex Pratt and Whitney J58 engines are very unique. Inlet temperatures can reach 1100 degrees C. and require astralloy discs in the turbine sections to withstand the heat. The combustion exhaust temperature reaches 3200 degrees F. The blast created by the SR71 stretches for 3000 feet and the turbulent air sizzles at over 200 degrees. The SR71 cruises in afterburner so it incorporates an Air Inlet Control System (spikes) and a bleed by-pass system, which increases or decreases airflow into the engine, when flying between subsonic and into the higher supersonic speeds. The largest engines of their timeto be built for an aircraft, they produce 160,000 horse power giving the blackbird a thrust to weight ratio of 5 to 1. Designed as a combination turbo-ramjet engine, after attaining desired altitude and speed, the engines remain in afterburner and speed is maintained by increasing the airflow passing around the engine, thus requiring less thrust from the core engine, and thereby consuming less fuel. These are the only engines built that effectively and efficiently cruised at Mach 3 and above for sustained time periods.

http://www.marchfield.org/sr71a.htm


I guess you didn't bother to read the research paper I posted earlier about how an over the horizon radar can easily detect a missile launch. Over the horizon radars are prone to atmospheric attenuation and yet these reliably detect missile launches. If a OTH radar can detect a missile launch airborne radars will do it quite easily.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

The SM-2 capabilities are limited. Maybe a salvo of ESSM missiles will do the job. But, by the time the ESSM is fully operational, IN will start operationalizing the hypersonic version of Brahmos.

The SM-2 is simply too slow to react to a supersonic missile, especially against something that is continuously flying at full power like the Brahmos. The Brahmos has a Ramjet engine while the SM-2 has the old solid fuelled rocket engines. The difference is simply too much. The ramjet engines are always powered while the SM-2's engines reach full speed only in the final phase of their flight.

Anyway, you never know what can happen in a war. A bunch of jags "sank" the Nimitz during Operation Malabar in the Bay of Bengal. So, a MKI or even a PAKFA reaching its target cannot be ruled out.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/i...-f18s-return-the-favour-to-ins-viraat/215163/


The missiles on the jags were the older generation subsonic missiles. Also, the exercise saw the use of 3 aircraft carriers a lot of supporting vessels and 200 aircraft. So, I don't think a carrier battlegroup is as strong as you imagine. You need to get lucky just once.

You're assuming tail chase, I think head on intercept with a proximity fuse will work quite well. Besides the US NAVY's OPEVAL deems the SM-2 BLOCK IIIB and higher operationally effective and suitable against all high-speed, high/low altitude anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs) in an advanced ECM environment.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/sm-2.htm

I don't think I've ruled out anything, a rubber dinghy took out the USS Cole. I am well aware that under the right conditions with the right motivation skill and planning anything can be accomplished.
I've been trying to convince LETHALFORCE for the last few days that the Brahmos is not infallible it can be neutralized.

 

[Armand2REP]

How about declassified CIA files?

http://www.paperlessarchives.com/a12.html

What you quoted was not said in the real documents at the bottom of the page.

Several times less as compared to conventional solid or liquid fueled rockets - yes. But still enough to register on the radar.

It isn't the flame that registers on radar, it is the plume trace. Ramjets cruising at sea level leave a very small plume, not enough to register on radar especially against the wave background. You are talking about an SR-71 that is a 100 times bigger flying at the top of the stratosphere against the background of the atmosphere... it is totally different scenarios that are not interchangeable.

You are kidding right? Which storm do you know of that heats the air by 200 deg C? If the Brahmos passes you at a few feet flying at Mach 2.8 the sonic shock wave is enough to disintegrate your body.

Radars do not detect heat, they detect the crystalline solids that bounce radar rays off the plume. It is exactly like looking at a cloud. The plume of Brahmos is not only small and thin, it will be dissipated over the waves quickly. Your theory does not apply to a ramjet or subsonic turbojet cruising over the waves, the plumes are not that big and the radars are not that good.

http://www.marchfield.org/sr71a.htm

Still don't know why you are wasting your time trying to compare a plane the size of an office building flying at the top of the stratosphere to a sea-skimming missile.

I guess you didn't bother to read the research paper I posted earlier about how an over the horizon radar can easily detect a missile launch. Over the horizon radars are prone to atmospheric attenuation and yet these reliably detect missile launches. If a OTH radar can detect a missile launch airborne radars will do it quite easily.

They do not "reliably" detect missile launches. OTH bounces radar off the ionosphere and is highly susceptible to atmospheric interference. OTH doesn't even work half the time. That is why we still have Early Warning satellites and UV detection sensors. OTH as an Early Warning system is a joke which is why it was shelved for 30 years. Now it is used for maritime reconnaissance.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Subsonic cruise missiles are a lot harder to detect for the following reasons:

1. Launch occurs at distances greater than the detection range of radars protecting the target.
2. In comparison to supersonic ASCM, subsonic missiles are capable of lower altitude terrain hugging or sea skimming profile.

A turbofan sub sonic cruise missile would give off way more plumes than a ramjet cruise missile, it would be 100 times easier to detect and intercept you may not even need to use a ship's defenses warplanes can be used it this role ,to detect using their AESA radar then to intercept.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Navies around the world have accepted that the biggest threat other than a torpedo is a cruise missile launched from a sub. How would a sub launched Brahmos ever be detected?? or intercepted??? Many torpedos claim to be undetectable.

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/04/22/report-south-korean-ship-was-hit-by-north-korean-torpedo/

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_14/torpedoes.html

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/02/iran_goes_publi.php

 

[nrj]

Brahmos submarine launched version has completed most of its development needs. Proper submarine platform is not free. Any news of scheduling tests? When the real submarine platform will be allowed, Brahmos can carry out its User Trials clearing its way for induction. Next few years will give Brahmos Universal platform compatibility.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Brahmos submarine launched version has completed most of its development needs. Proper submarine platform is not free. Any news of scheduling tests? When the real submarine platform will be allowed, Brahmos can carry out its User Trials clearing its way for induction. Next few years will give Brahmos Universal platform compatibility.

According to Indian press, BrahMos production series started in Indian by March 2006. Integration of the BrahMos missile on an Indian Navy's Kilo-class modified submarine may be conducted between November 2007 and February 2008. The Russian Amur-class submarines are BrahMos missile capable from its inception. In fact, Russia has already deployed the BrahMos missile in the Amur-class submarines.

http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Ship-Missiles/BrahMos_a001774001.aspx

a Brahmos and Klub/Sizzler on a kilo what a nice combination

 

[Armand2REP]

According to Indian press, BrahMos production series started in Indian by March 2006. Integration of the BrahMos missile on an Indian Navy's Kilo-class modified submarine may be conducted between November 2007 and February 2008. The Russian Amur-class submarines are BrahMos missile capable from its inception. In fact, Russia has already deployed the BrahMos missile in the Amur-class submarines.

http://www.deagel.com/Anti-Ship-Missiles/BrahMos_a001774001.aspx

a Brahmos and Klub/Sizzler on a kilo what a nice combination

Kind of hard for a 600cm Brahmos to fit in a 533cm torpedo tube.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Kind of hard for a 600cm Brahmos to fit in a 533cm torpedo tube.

kilo(s) are being refitted for Brahmos
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_navy-wants-brahmos-in-submarines_1104880

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Ramjets cruising at sea level leave a very small plume, not enough to register on radar especially against the wave background.

The plume of Brahmos is not only small and thin, it will be dissipated over the waves quickly. Your theory does not apply to a ramjet or subsonic turbojet cruising over the waves, the plumes are not that big and the radars are not that good.

Prove it please it is time you finally back up your assertion with proof. Why is a Ramjet powered missile flying at Mach 2.8 above the ocean surface 'small and thin' and undetectable by Radar?

 

[p2prada]

You're assuming tail chase, I think head on intercept with a proximity fuse will work quite well.

No. I am talking about head on intercept. Tail chase will not work on the Brahmos ever. The speed and maneuvering achieved by Ramjet engines is simply too mind boggling for a rocket engine to even think about tail chase interception. It is the similar with head on. The Brahmos can turn at very high angles at full power and leave the SAM is a lurch. The rocket propelled SAM will have to reduce its thrust to achieve a similar turn, which is not possible.

Besides the US NAVY's OPEVAL deems the SM-2 BLOCK IIIB and higher operationally effective and suitable against all high-speed, high/low altitude anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs) in an advanced ECM environment.

It does not talk about the Brahmos. It has been acknowledged by the USN that the Brahmos cannot be stopped with current levels of technology. It is simply too fast.

At first the US tried justifying the missile was useless since a supersonic missile cannot maneuver at such high speeds at low altitudes. The IN did a test that validated the Brahmos's S maneuver at full speed that completely defeats any present generation anti-missile system and that put an end to the American claim.

The US has been trying to stop the development of the Brahmos since the last 25 years. It was only because the US could not say NO to India that the Brahmos was fully developed in the first place.

High speed is too general a term and characterizing the Brahmos in the high speed regime is foolish. It is 3 times faster than any aircraft at sea level. Right now there is nothing that exists in the world that can catch up or outrun the Brahmos at sea level.

The best part is brahmos is capable of sea skimming. In the sea skimming mode the Brahmos cannot be detected until it is in the terminal phase of its flight, and that is the last few kilometres. In the sea skimming mode it is only 20metres above the surface of the sea. This is well below radar level and can be detected only by passive sensors like IR. Locking onto such a small target and shooting the SM2 with just a few seconds warning only decreases the probability of survival. The sea skimming mode gives it a 120km range.

I've been trying to convince LETHALFORCE for the last few days that the Brahmos is not infallible it can be neutralized.

Brahmos can be neutralized, but not yet. The concept behind defeating a cruise missile is simple. It is the most difficult target to be detected and tracked. But, once detected it can be killed easily with any other aircraft or point defence system. Any fighter like the Mig-31 or F-16 can detect a Tomahawk, catch up and shoot it down with WVR missile. The reason for this is the lack of speed on cruise missiles. None of them go above Mach 1. Over the many decades the cruise missile has been used, speed was its most infallible weakness. This limitation was overcome by the Brahmos.

The only way to beat it is by using a SAM or an aircraft that can achieve much higher speeds than 2.8 Mach and 5+Mach for the Brahmos 2 at sea level and lower. Even then survival is not guaranteed because the Brahmos will come at you in salvos.

Perhaps the biggest threat to it will be directed energy weapons and that is still fictional as of now.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/25/stories/2010032563641200.htm

Bravo BrahMos

The successful flight of the BrahMos missile on March 21 spotlights India's status as a world leader in launching supersonic cruise missiles vertically from moving warships and manoeuvring the missiles at the supersonic speed of 2.8 Mach. Launching a missile in an inclined mode is relatively easy. But lifting off vertically from a rolling and pitching vessel, climbing, turning and cruising horizontally, performing manoeuvres, and precisely hitting the target is technologically a big task. Astonishingly, BrahMos performed its intricate manoeuvres at 2.8 Mach, with its propulsion fully switched on during the whole course of its flight. (Normally, when a missile performs manoeuvres, its engines will not operate.) Another highlight was the advanced indigenous software for way point manoeuvring that enables the low-flying missile to hit a target vessel taking shelter, for instance, behind a rocky island. This was the 22nd launch of BrahMos, a joint venture product of the Defence Research and Development Organisation of India and NPO Mashinostroyenia, a space-missile enterprise of the Russian Federation. BrahMos is a versatile, two-stage missile that is nine metres long and weighs 3.9 tonnes with the canister. It has a range of 290 km. It can carry only non-nuclear warheads. With a flight record demonstrating a high degree of reliability, it has already been inducted into the Navy and the Army. India has ship-to-ship, ship-to-land, land-to-land, and land-to-ship versions of BrahMos.

Nobody in their right mind wants lethal missiles fired to kill, destroy, and inflict damage on civilian targets. Since the BrahMos missile is all about enhancing defence capability, a vertical launch from a ship has several advantages. First, it ensures the vessel's safety because the missile is pushed out vertically and its booster engine is fired in the air, allowing the ship to move away. Secondly, the missile in vertical launch can take on a target lying anywhere in a 360-degree range. Whatever the ship's orientation, the missile can turn in any direction to pursue the target. Thirdly, the vertical placement enables accommodation of more missiles in less space in a warship's cramped environs. The missiles are concealed inside the ship, providing them with long and safe storage and protection against corrosion. With India declaring that it would not use nuclear weapons first against another country, BrahMos becomes a formidable and highly cost-effective defence because it can hit any attacker with speed, power, and precision. Given its fast reaction — it takes off in four minutes from the time the command is given from launch headquarters — the missile has virtually no equal in a hypothetical conventional battlefield. BrahMos is a state-of-the-art demonstration of the great advantages of Indo-Soviet, and now Indo-Russian, defence cooperation.

 

[nrj]

Gates Questions Carrier Fleet

In a speech today at the Navy League symposium, Gates said the service needed to take another look at plans to keep 11 carrier strike groups for the next three decades. "In terms of size and striking power, no other country has even one comparable ship," Gates noted.

"To be sure, the need to project power across the oceans will never go away," he said. "But, consider the massive over-match the U.S. already enjoys. Consider, too, the growing anti-ship capabilities of adversaries. Do we really need eleven carrier strike groups for another 30 years when no other country has more than one? Any future plans must address these realities."

It's a message the Navy has thus far been resistant to. The service has taken some steps to buy smaller, faster shore-hugging ships, and has also embraced riverine operations for the first time since Vietnam. But Gates suggested that the service was still wedded to multi-billion-dollar ships that may in the future be increasingly vulnerable. The aircraft carrier may be the ultimate symbol of American military power. But with the right missile aimed at it, a carrier can go from fearsome to fearful sitting duck in a hurry.

"The virtual monopoly the U.S. has enjoyed with precision guided weapons is eroding – especially with long-range, accurate anti-ship cruise and ballistic missiles that can potentially strike from over the horizon," he said.

That point should be familiar to Danger Room readers: As we've noted here before, China has been testing anti-ship ballistic missiles designed specifically to target aircraft carriers. And as ships rise in price — like the next-generation, Ford-class carrier under construction here — cost itself becomes a vulnerability. A Ford-class carrier with a full complement of aircraft, Gates noted, "would represent potentially $15 to $20 billion worth of hardware at risk."

Source

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://kuku.sawf.org/News/60841.aspx

Impressive Brahmos carrier attack capability detailed
Posted by vkthakur on Monday, October 19, 2009 (EST)
Russia's Pravda has claimed an impressive salvo fire and intelligent coordinated attack capability for the Brahmos missile.

Russia's Pravda has claimed an impressive salvo fire and intelligent coordinated attack capability for the Brahmos missile. INS Rana (R), seen here with the US Navy Ronald Reagan Carrier Strike Group during Malabar 2008, is equipped with four Brahmos launchers and is capable of a salvo attack. Photo Credit: U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Gary Prill

October 19, 2009, (Sawf News) - Russia's Pravda has claimed an impressive salvo fire and intelligent coordinated attack capability for the Brahmos missile.

The capability allows a missile salvo to intelligently takeout multiple ships from within a formation, such as a aircraft carrier group.

Missiles fired in a salvo stagger their attack and automatically reassign themselves new targets if the primary target, say an aircraft carrier is destroyed.

Here is the capability in Pravda's words.

The missiles are so clever that they not only detect a target but develop a plan of attack based on the enemy's air defense. They know exactly which target is the primary one, which of them is an attacker and which is a defender. When the main target is destroyed, they re-prioritize and continue with the attack. Now even more advanced missile is on the way.