BrahMos Cruise Missile

[LETHALFORCE]

Of all the deluded statements this one takes the prize "excessive evasive maneuvers?" Do people even realize that at Mach 3 the SR-71 needed a 100 miles to make a turn?
Your claims defy the laws of Physics, how do you explain high maneuverability on a missile that has fewer control surfaces than an SR-71 and no thrust vector capability?

Brahmos is able to change trajectory upto the last 20km of it's flight.

 

[nrj]

Do you folks realize that ramjet engines need a steady flow of pressurized air to keep the engine from flaming out?

Now regarding your concern about the steady flow of pressurized air requirement,

In Kh-31 after the solid Booster stage, the four air intakes open up and as in the Franco-German ANS/ANF the empty rocket case becomes the combustion chamber of a kerosene-fuelled ramjet, which takes it beyond Mach 4. This is how air intake is achieved.

Sunburn has similar air intake design like Kh-31.

In Coyote, it integrates a four-inlet, solid-fuel ducted rocket ramjet propulsion system into a compact missile airframe 18 feet long and 14 inches in diameter. This is how it obtains its pressurized air. Coyote's ducted ramjet is remarkable progress.

In Brahmos, Air-breathing ramjet propulsion is employed which is much more fuel-efficient than rocket propulsion, giving the BrahMos a longer range than a pure rocket-powered missile would achieve. This is how Brahmos takes care of its air requirements.

 

[nrj]

US got everything they needed. Russians were fool enough to even sell S-300V.

Russia initially sold Kh-31 to US which has no seeker & major critical components. US lost money.
Russia agreed to sell active & reserved inventory of Sunburn to US after that but US showed reluctance sighting high price. And in the next 11 months Sunburn was sold to China. US still empty handed. US' failed policy led it to arm China with sophisticated Sunburn.

Here, see how US lost money & technology
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/1/22/190620.shtml

US has committed many mistakes.

 

[Armand2REP]

Each Chinese warship is armed with eight nuclear-tipped Sunburn missiles.

Better to check your sources before posting speculation.

 

[nrj]

March 19, 2007
Orbital Sciences Corp., Chandler, Ariz., is being awarded a $9,222,023 cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for the procurement of one GQM-163A Supersonic Sea Skimming Target Vehicle, support equipment, spare parts, technical data, and technical assistance for the government of France under the Foreign Military Sales Program. The GQM-163A will support the validation of the French weapon system.

http://www.defense.gov/contracts/con...ontractid=3476

In May 2007, the final qualification firing of PAAMS (E) was successfully completed. The firing comprised the EMPAR radar and associated fire control system, the A 50 Sylver Vertical Launcher and the Aster 30 missile.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/sit...-PAAMS_89.html

Aster has conducted test against C22 Subsonic targets, aerial drones, aircraft flying at Mach-1.
Aster 30 has the capability to intercept targets at altitudes from 50m to 20km.
I couldn't trace any interception record of Supersonic Sea-Skimming Missile flying at 2.8 MACH.

Aster Block-2 can bring any good news about extended range which ain't happening until 2020.

 

[Armand2REP]

Aster has conducted test against C22 Subsonic targets, aerial drones, aircraft flying at Mach-1.
Aster 30 has the capability to intercept targets at altitudes from 50m to 20km.
I couldn't trace any interception record of Supersonic Sea-Skimming Missile flying at 2.8 MACH.

The final validation test for French-Italian PAAMS was conducted in May 2007 with the delivery of the Coyote target drone. It flies at Mach 2.5

Aster Block-2 can bring any good news about extended range which ain't happening until 2020.

Aster Block-2 is the ABM expansion of land based SAMP-T. PAAMS is the French-Italian naval defence system that has already finished validation.

 

[nrj]

The final validation test for French-Italian PAAMS was conducted in May 2007 with the delivery of the Coyote target drone. It flies at Mach 2.5

Will you provide details starting with authenticate non-corporate source, details if the similar target speed, similar maneuvers, similar terminal phase time slot was employed in any of the known tests?

Aster Block-2 is the ABM expansion of land based SAMP-T. PAAMS is the French-Italian naval defence system that has already finished validation.

The Aster evolution is backed by MBDA, Safran and Thales, which are seeking development funding for Block 2 from the French government. MBDA and Thales executives estimate up to 5 billion euros ($6.48 billion) would be needed to deploy an Aster Block 2 from 2020.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4001379

 

[RAM]

BATL ready with first prototype of BrahMos launcher

India's BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Ltd (BATL) is ready with the first prototype of an indigenous airborne launcher developed for the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. The air-launched version of the missile will be fitted to the Su-30 MKI aircraft. The basic design of the launcher was conceived by BrahMos engineers from Hyderabad and accepted by the Sukhoi Design Bureau. The launcher must undergo one more final test before it is fitted onto the Su-30 MKI for flight trials.
http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2010/05/batl-ready-with-first-prototype-of.html

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Let us examine your assertion .

"Unless other supersonic interceptor missile or attack missile come up with better than these maneuvers. Brahmos, Kh-31, Sunburn maneuvers remain supreme"

It is an established fact that aerodynamic control surfaces are needed to alter pitch, roll or yaw of an aircraft; this applies to both air planes and missiles. There are three components that can be manipulated to achieve either pitch and/or yaw these are canard, wings and tail fins. This method of maneuvering a missile is conventional, thrust vectoring on the other hand is an unconventional method of deflecting the missile nozzle in the vertical or horizontal plane to dramatically improve the turn rate of a missile. The below image graphically demonstrates the different mechanisms for achieving thrust vector.

The Brahmos missile see image below appears to have prominent delta wings mid-body, with four small delta control fins at the rear generally expected on long range surface to surface or air to surface missiles. The wing controls the rotary motion and aids in producing the desired pitch, yaw and roll while the tail fin assembly in the rear provides stability to the missile.

Based on publicly available information on the Brahmos missiles I have concluded that the Brahmos missile relies solely on the wings to perform any and all maneuvers while the tail fin stabilizes the missile. If this is untrue please provide some reliable reference to establish the existence of an alternate mechanism to control flight. Until the introduction of thrust vector on air-to-air missiles it was generally accepted that fighter aircraft's have larger control surfaces and can out maneuver missiles as was routinely done in the past and there are several accounts of pilots evading air-to-air missiles especially in Vietnam forcing the re-introduction of guns on the F-4 Phantom. I've quoted an SR-71 Blackbird pilot say that he needed a hundred miles to turn his plane around traveling at thrice the speed of sound at 50,000 ft, there is one account of an SR-71 pilot that accidentally intruded into France while attempting to turn his plane over Spain causing a diplomatic row between France and the United States. Considering all these facts how can you explain the super maneuverability of a missile with such small control surfaces?

Another known fact Ramjets require considerable forward speed to operate, flying straight and level at supersonic speeds allows the air intake on the nose of the craft to slow down supersonic air causing the needed pressurized air to be enter the Ramjet combustion chamber. The act of turning the missile at Mach 2.8 will cause longitudinal sonic shock waves to divert air away from the intake on the nose, this is the reason four intakes are preferred and located near the tail on ramjet powered missiles such as Akash ,S-6 and the Coyote.

Returning to your original assertion.

"Unless other supersonic interceptor missile or attack missile come up with better than these maneuvers. Brahmos, Kh-31, Sunburn maneuvers remain supreme"

You claim that the Brahmos is more maneuverable than any interception missile in existence. This is absurd, unlike the Brahmos which is a wing controlled missile, the ESSM,SM-2 and Aster are all tail controlled missile, tail control provides excellent maneuverability at the high angles of attack often needed to intercept a highly maneuverable aircraft. ESSM has strakes instead of wings and skid-to-turn technique further improves turn rates.

In skid-to-turn, the vehicle does not roll to a preferred angle. Instead commands to the control surfaces are mixed to produce the maneuver in the desired direction. This is distinct from the coordinated turn used by aircraft pilots. For instance, a vehicle flying horizontally may be turned in the horizontal plane by the application of rudder controls to place the body at a sideslip angle relative to the airflow. This sideslip flow then produces a force in the horizontal plane to turn the vehicle's velocity vector.

In addition, missiles like the Brahmos and ESSM have a jet vane that facilitates vertical launch. The jet vane is ejected on both missiles immediately after the launch; this can be seen in the countless launch videos available for both on Youtube. See below image, PAC-3,SM-2 and ASTER all have some thrust vectoring capability which is one of the advantages of solid fueled missiles. Considering everything I've just explained and assuming the absence of unconventional thrust vector mechanism there is just no way that the Brahmos can out maneuver any of the intercept missiles I've listed above.

 

[nrj]

Let us examine your assertion .



It is an established fact that aerodynamic control surfaces are needed to alter pitch, roll or yaw of an aircraft; this applies to both air planes and missiles. There are three components that can be manipulated to achieve either pitch and/or yaw these are canard, wings and tail fins. This method of maneuvering a missile is conventional, thrust vectoring on the other hand is an unconventional method of deflecting the missile nozzle in the vertical or horizontal plane to dramatically improve the turn rate of a missile. The below image graphically demonstrates the different mechanisms for achieving thrust vector.

The Brahmos missile see image below appears to have prominent delta wings mid-body, with four small delta control fins at the rear generally expected on long range surface to surface or air to surface missiles. The wing controls the rotary motion and aids in producing the desired pitch, yaw and roll while the tail fin assembly in the rear provides stability to the missile.

Based on publicly available information on the Brahmos missiles I have concluded that the Brahmos missile relies solely on the wings to perform any and all maneuvers while the tail fin stabilizes the missile. If this is untrue please provide some reliable reference to establish the existence of an alternate mechanism to control flight. Until the introduction of thrust vector on air-to-air missiles it was generally accepted that fighter aircraft's have larger control surfaces and can out maneuver missiles as was routinely done in the past and there are several accounts of pilots evading air-to-air missiles especially in Vietnam forcing the re-introduction of guns on the F-4 Phantom. I've quoted an SR-71 Blackbird pilot say that he needed a hundred miles to turn his plane around traveling at thrice the speed of sound at 50,000 ft, there is one account of an SR-71 pilot that accidentally intruded into France while attempting to turn his plane over Spain causing a diplomatic row between France and the United States. Considering all these facts how can you explain the super maneuverability of a missile with such small control surfaces?

Another known fact Ramjets require considerable forward speed to operate, flying straight and level at supersonic speeds allows the air intake on the nose of the craft to slow down supersonic air causing the needed pressurized air to be enter the Ramjet combustion chamber. The act of turning the missile at Mach 2.8 will cause longitudinal sonic shock waves to divert air away from the intake on the nose, this is the reason four intakes are preferred and located near the tail on ramjet powered missiles such as Akash ,S-6 and the Coyote.

Returning to your original assertion.



You claim that the Brahmos is more maneuverable than any interception missile in existence. This is absurd, unlike the Brahmos which is a wing controlled missile, the ESSM,SM-2 and Aster are all tail controlled missile, tail control provides excellent maneuverability at the high angles of attack often needed to intercept a highly maneuverable aircraft. ESSM has strakes instead of wings and skid-to-turn technique further improves turn rates.



In addition, missiles like the Brahmos and ESSM have a jet vane that facilitates vertical launch. The jet vane is ejected on both missiles immediately after the launch; this can be seen in the countless launch videos available for both on Youtube. See below image, PAC-3,SM-2 and ASTER all have some thrust vectoring capability which is one of the advantages of solid fueled missiles. Considering everything I've just explained and assuming the absence of unconventional thrust vector mechanism there is just no way that the Brahmos can out maneuver any of the intercept missiles I've listed above.

Point known. Flight control of supersonic missile & maneuvers are extremely difficult.
Coyote, Brahmos, Kh-31, Sunburn extreme maneuver techniques will never be open public. That is why it is classified technology.

But just because flight control & maneuvering techniques are not public, I won't reject 'maneuverability' claims of any supersonic missile. Be it Coyote, Brahmos, ESSM or anyone.

Now my opinion is Brahmos like missile is not easily intercepted by conventional techniques.
If there are successful interception tests known, please enlighten.

I am ending another post requesting source for interception tests -

Originally Posted by death.by.chocolate Post no. #370
The Brahmos is 'interceptable' now. This has been demonstrated by ESSM tests with smaller more maneuverable target vehicles.

Can you provide details if the claim that Brahmos is 'now' interceptable is to be true. Details if the similar target speed, similar maneuvers, similar terminal phase time slot was employed in any of the known tests?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://www.rockingteam.com/2010/03/...ahmos-supersonic-cruise-missile-successfully/

India tested More Maneuverable BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile Successfully

India tested the new version of BrahMos cruise missile on 21-Mar-2010, and became the first country to develop a maneuverable supersonic cruise missile. The missile had a vertical lift off from the ship and was then maneuvered to hit the target ship.

The BrahMos missile, developed with Russia, can carry nuclear and conventional warheads weighing 620 to 660 pounds (280 to 300 kilograms) and has a maximum range of 180 miles (290 kilometers).

The missile can fly at 2.8 times the speed of sound and can be launched from land, ships, submarines and aircraft.

The standard version of the missile has already been tested more than a dozen times, but this was the first test of the new version.The new version is more maneuverable version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile that was jointly developed with Russia

The test proved it was possible to change the direction of the missile at supersonic speeds before hitting the target. According to the officials BrahMos can turn upto 360 degrees during the flight and hit the target.


http://www.dailynews365.com/nationa...-country-to-have-cruise-maneuverable-missile/

India Became First Country To Have Cruise Maneuverable Missile

Bhubaneshwar, March 21 — India successfully test-fired the BrahMos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile from a warship in the Bay of Bengal off coast of Orissa on Sunday and became the first country to have a 'maneuverable' missile for cuise.
India Became First Country To Have Cruise Maneuverable Missile
A Sivathanu Pillai, chief of BrahMos aerospace, said: "The vertical-launch version of missile was launched at 1130 hours today from Indian Navy ship INS Ranvir and it maneuvered successfully hitting the target ship. It was a perfect hit and a perfect mission."

He also added, "After today's test, India has become the first and only country in the world to have a "maneuverable supersonic cruise missile in its inventory."

President Pratibha Patil and Defence Minister A K Antony, in a separate message, congratulated the BrahMos scientists for the successful test-launch and congratulated the navy too.

According to Pillai, the software of the new anti-ship cruise missile was improved and the Sunday's test from Orissa coast proved its capability of maneuverability at supersonic speeds.

BrahMos officials said, "During the test, the missile hit a free-floating ship piercing it above the waterline and destroying it completely."

Sunday's test-firing of the missile was a part of the pre-induction tests as moves by the Navy are afoot to deploy the vertical-launch version of the missile in ships.

Indo-Russian joint venture company designed and developed this weapon system.

http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/33122.aspx

6 February 2007 (Sawf News) - A maneuverable land attack version of the BrahMos missile, fired from a mobile launcher, was tested on Sunday, 04 Feb 2006 at Chandipur, Orissa..

The missile flew over the Gulf of Bengal at a 2.8 speed along an "S" trajectory.

Elaborating on the test of a weapons system that has earlier already been proven Project Chief Sivathanu Pillai, who heads the BrahMos Air Space Ltd. said, "...we staged for the first time on Sunday an experiment to see whether it [the missile] is able to make sharp maneuvers at supersonic speeds.

"The missile proved able to do it and, thereby, confirmed its very high combat effectiveness".

Hindu reports, "With a clear sky, the missile took off at 12:16 p.m. from the mobile launch complex. Before the lift-off, it was raised vertically. As Lt. Col. Bishnu Ram pressed the ignition button, the missile rose, turned sharply at 90 degrees horizontally and spectacularly carried out the maneuvering in the form of a "S" curve and cruised over the Bay of Bengal at 2.8 times the speed of sound."

It appears what was being tested is the missile's ability to approach a ground target from any direction not just the very predictable line of sight from the launcher to the target.

If the terse announcement following the test that the ground-to-ground missile had accurately performed the assigned maneuver is indeed true, the Army must be elated.

The ability to maneuver in flight at supersonic speeds will make the missile even more lethal than it was earlier by complicating the task of defending against it. A small number of quick reaction surface to air missiles positioned along the line of site between the launcher and target will now not constitute a adequate defense. A target will now need a protective ring of expensive missile batteries.

The new test proves that development of new versions of Brahmos missile is being pursued vigorously. Submarine and air launched versions of the missile are under development. The Navy and more recently the Army have both placed order for their respective versions of the eight-metres-long, two-stage missile that has a takeoff weight of more than three tons and can hit targets up to 290 kilometers away.

Brahmos is a fine example of what Russian ingenuity and engineering skills can achieve in combination with Indian baniagiri.

 

[Armand2REP]

This is absurd, unlike the Brahmos which is a wing controlled missile, the ESSM,SM-2 and Aster are all tail controlled missile

Actually the Aster interceptor dart is steered by a DACS high speed control loop called pif-paf in the interception phase. It has several directional thrusters controlling its flight much like a ballistic KE interceptor. It is the most advanced atmospheric interceptor in existence.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

To get a clue about how effective ESSM really is, think about why Turkey wants to have Barak from Israel rather than ESSM???They had a joint partnership with Roketsan of Turkey to make ESSM and they still were not happy with it.

http://www.debka.com/article/8744/
Israel will not sell Turkey advanced naval Barak-8 interceptor

 

[Armand2REP]

Barak didn't protect that corvette from the 40 year old Hezzie Silkworm.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Barak didn't protect that corvette from the 40 year old Hezzie Silkworm.

Did they have Barak on the ship?? During Falkland war PHALANX , sea Darts, 965 radar which claimed to pick up sea skimming missiles, failed to protect the British destroyer HMS Sheffield from the Argentine Exocet.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Did they have Barak on the ship?? During Falkland war PHALANX , sea Darts, 965 radar which claimed to pick up sea skimming missiles, failed to protect the British destroyer HMS Sheffield from the Argentine Exocet.

LETHALFORCE, this incident doesn't count, one because ship defense, radar and missile technology have evolved considerably since 1982.
And second I think someone was asleep at the wheel on the Sheffield - the Étendard launched the Exocet from six miles of the Sheffield? How does an enemy fighter get that close?

The Exocet missile that hit HMS Sheffield had been fired from a French-built Super Étendard. The pilot, Captain Augusto Bedacarratz, had launched his Exocet when only six miles from the Sheffield – to all intents, this represented point blank range. The 'rule book' stated that an Exocet would be launched at a ship from 45 miles away and from a reasonable height. In this sense a 965 radar would pick it up. This Exocet was launched and flew just above sea level and was not picked up by radar until it was too late to react. The Sea Dart missile system was also generally not overly good at picking up sea skimming missiles. The crew had just 5 seconds warning that a missile was incoming.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

http://www.rockingteam.com/2010/03/...ahmos-supersonic-cruise-missile-successfully/

The test proved it was possible to change the direction of the missile at supersonic speeds before hitting the target. According to the officials BrahMos can turn upto 360 degrees during the flight and hit the target.

The point of contention is not that the Brahmos is incapable of maneuvering, the question is weather the Brahmos can out maneuver missiles such as SM-2,ESSM,Aster and Barak?
Further one 360 degree turn in over 100 miles of flight is achieved by the SR-71 as well at Mach 3. What I dispute is the capability to perform instantaneous turns needed to evade smaller, faster more maneuverable solid fueled thrust vector capable tail controlled missiles.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Barak didn't protect that corvette from the 40 year old Hezzie Silkworm.

The crew of the Ahi-Hanit was complacent the ships air defense systems were turned off 15 km from shore when the ship was hit by land launched Kowsar.
The USS Cole was hit by a explosive laden rubber dinghy- does that mean small boats are more effective anti ship weapons?
I guess its important to recognize that while discussing weapons capability the human factor should be excluded. We should assume an alert,
well trained and motivated force on both sides (aggressors and defenders).

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The point of contention is not that the Brahmos is incapable of maneuvering, the question is weather the Brahmos can out maneuver missiles such as SM-2,ESSM,Aster and Barak?
Further one 360 degree turn in over 100 miles of flight is achieved by the SR-71 as well at Mach 3. What I dispute is the capability to perform instantaneous turns needed to evade smaller, faster more maneuverable solid fueled thrust vector capable tail controlled missiles.

http://www.missilethreat.com/archives/id.15/subject_detail.asp

In part of the executive overview to the new edition of Jane's Strategic Weapons Systems publication, Duncan Lennox summarizes two features receiving relatively new attention in the missile defense community: ship-launched missiles and maneuverable reentry vehicles which are a sort of hybrid between ballistic and cruise missile technologies, two issues frequently referenced on Missilethreat.com.
The ship-launched threat is relevant for rogue states or even terrorists who might acquire a SCUD or other primitive missile, equip it with a WMD payload, and deliver it from a short distance off the coast of a major U.S. city. The 1998 Rumsfeld Report warned of such a threat. As Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld has repeatedly noted that rogue states have tested missiles in this configuration and that the near term threat remains, as have other administration officials. Missilethreat.com maintains an archive of related stories. "The ship-launched threat is one that needs to be taken seriously," Lennox notes.
As for the development of maneuverable reentry vehicles, this applies especially to Russia's continued announcements over the last two years that its new ballistic missiles, the Topol-M and the Bulava, are armed with some sort of hypersonic payload which would be capable of maneuvering in its midcourse and terminal phase, and thereby evading the sort of ground-based, midcourse ballistic missile defenses currently being fielded in Alaska and California. On this point, Lennox observes, "the sum conclusion is that in the future, the ballistic missile and nuclear warhead threat situation is going to become more complex and international in nature, with whole regions likely to be involved rather than just two individual countries." Less unclear, however, is the extent to which long-range ICBMs would be able to maneuver significantly in their boost phase, when the missile is working to obtain altitude and speed necessary to travel long distances

Russia's Topol and Bulava are Ballistic missiles and assuming that their mid flight speed is MACH 15 to MACH 25 can manuever and change course. Manueverability for hypersonic missiles has been achieved by both Russia and India. India has done it with Brahmos and Shaurya, and Russia with Topol. Shaurya is a cruise/ballistic missile hybrid Shaurya flys at MACH 6 and is manueverable. India also did a test earlier with AGNI 2 missile where the course changed .

http://knol.google.com/k/shaurya-missile#

Shaurya could get through the air defense of an adversary country because it was highly manoeuvrable, Dr. Selvamurthy said.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article429490.ece

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/8359-AGNI-RV-MK-2-manoeuvring-missile

It has a special navigation system to improve accuracy and a manoeuvring re-entry vehicle enabling it to change course during re-entry.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

LETHALFORCE, this incident doesn't count, one because ship defense, radar and missile technology have evolved considerably since 1982.
And second I think someone was asleep at the wheel on the Sheffield - the Étendard launched the Exocet from six miles of the Sheffield? How does an enemy fighter get that close?

This is what was reported by the British but this incident shocked the British. Later it was claimed Margaret Thatcher pleaded with the French for the exocet source codes until she got them; if this is true or not remains a mystery??