BrahMos Cruise Missile

death.by.chocolate

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Manueverability for hypersonic missiles has been achieved by both Russia and India. India has done it with Brahmos and Shaurya, and Russia with Topol. Shaurya is a cruise/ballistic missile hybrid Shaurya flys at MACH 6 and is manueverable. India also did a test earlier with AGNI 2 missile where the course changed .

Shaurya could get through the air defense of an adversary country because it was highly manoeuvrable, Dr. Selvamurthy said.[/COLOR][/B]
Shaurya and AGNI 2 are both solid fueled missiles, I have already described how solid fueled missiles can be deflected by thrust vector. The only consideration for such is the airframes ability to withstand high 'G' maneuvers and the guidance systems ability to re-orient itself and reacquire the target after a violent high G deflection. High maneuverability on a large supersonic or hypersonic vehicle is difficult to achieve even for a flying wing design. I present exhibit 'A' the SHAFT, dubbed the 'golden bullet' the SHAFT or Supersonic/Hypersonic Attack AircraFT is a ramjet / scramjet powered concept for the future global power projection. A key design consideration for the SHAFT is turn radius, the designers accept that this vehicle will have a very large turning radius at supersonic speeds and acknowledge that the aircraft will avoid turning and RTB(return to base) to CONUS(Continental US) if the conflict zone is missed.



This large range requires a vehicle that is aerothermodynamically designed for a high lift-to-drag ratio. The range is directly related to the mach number-the faster the flight velocity, the farther the range. This range also includes the turning radius. At mach 12, the radius of a 2-g turn is 480 statute miles.
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/v3c12/v3c12-2.htm



The Brahmos is a ramjet powered low flying cruise missile you cannot associate the attributes of a high flying solid fueled Shaurya to it.
 
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The point of contention is not that the Brahmos is incapable of maneuvering, the question is weather the Brahmos can out maneuver missiles such as SM-2,ESSM,Aster and Barak?
Further one 360 degree turn in over 100 miles of flight is achieved by the SR-71 as well at Mach 3. What I dispute is the capability to perform instantaneous turns needed to evade smaller, faster more maneuverable solid fueled thrust vector capable tail controlled missiles.
Why would the turn have to be an extreme 360 degrees?? A 20 degree shift at the right time would be adequate to evade
defenses, or even elevating or lowering the trajectory would do the same. One factor you have not taken into account is
the missiles guidance system and software which IMO makes most of these things possible, you have focused strictly on the
propulsion system but the guidance system would be controlling the target,trajectory,velocity,range etc... any adjustments
can be made as needed via the datalink. Which defense system on the ship would first detect the missile is the real question??
Without detection there is no tracking and without tracking there is no defenses. Exocet missile speed give a reaction time of
120-150 seconds after detection according to NATO and missiles like MOSKIT SS-N-22 which is similar to Brahmos in speed give
a reaction time of 25 to 30 seconds, this is for individual missiles, salvos would be worst.
 
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Armand2REP

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The crew of the Ahi-Hanit was complacent the ships air defense systems were turned off 15 km from shore when the ship was hit by land launched Kowsar.
Kind of hard for it to have been a 20km Kowsar when the Egyptian merchant was hit at 21.75nm. What hit the Ahi-Hanit was much bigger than that, it wasn't a direct hit like it was on the merchant ship that sank. The excuse given by the IDF that all defences were turned off is laughable. There is a weapons officer on watch at all times. He will be especially vigilant in a hot zone where they feared armed UAVs being flown into the ship.

I think someone was asleep at the wheel on the Sheffield - the Étendard launched the Exocet from six miles of the Sheffield? How does an enemy fighter get that close?
The Argies didn't get anywhere near six miles within the Sheffield. They were launched at 25 miles. The reason it was hit without a response is because the search radar was shit for detecting sea skimming targets and the pilots pecked the lobes on the way in staying out of sight. They didn't know it was there until they saw the smoke on the horizon. The radar warning receivers didn't work either for the excuse that the SAT Comms Sheffield was conducting were hiding the signal. The reality is Sea Wolf was crap against the Exocet then and it was crap when the Atlantic Conveyor was hit when HMS Broadsword was protecting it later. Sea Wolf on Broadsword failed to protect the Conventry from A-4 Skyraiders as well.
 
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nandu

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BATL To Roll Out First BrahMos Missile By 2011


Brahmos vertical launch photo: DRDO

BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Ltd. (BATL) is expected to roll out its first fully-integrated supersonic BrahMos cruise missile by 2011.

The Indian air force's Southern Air Command (SAC) is on the verge of agreeing to hand over 7.15 acres of land to BATL for its Phase-II expansion, which would ensure that the missile's production rate will increase and maintain a pace of 20-25 annually. The missile is currently being integrated at the BrahMos Integration Complex (BIC) in Hyderabad.

"BIC comprises two integration bays — one for mechanical systems and another for electrical and electronic systems," BATL Executive Director N.R. Vishnu Kartha says. "All missile systems fabricated at various work centers in Indian and Russia [are] routed through BIC for integration and checking. The BATL Phase-II would supplement BIC and the missile production rate would definitely soar by 2011."

Phase-II's cost is pegged at Rs 75 crore ($17 million), and a possible third phase of expansion is being discussed for the integration of space launch vehicles for the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO). "We cannot forget the kind of support ISRO has been giving to us over the years and we are confident of now playing a major role in ISRO's future launch programs," Vishnu Kartha says.

ISRO has already given Rs 25 crore to BATL to augment its facilities for increased production of L-40 tanks, Vikas engines and other subsystems for the Geostationary Satellite Launch Vehicle and Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gene...ATL To Roll Out First BrahMos Missile By 2011
 

death.by.chocolate

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Without detection there is no tracking and without tracking there is no defenses. Exocet missile speed give a reaction time of 120-150 seconds after detection according to NATO and missiles like MOSKIT SS-N-22 which is similar to Brahmos in speed give a reaction time of 25 to 30 seconds, this is for individual missiles, salvos would be worst.
Absolutely! Early detection is the key, if a land or ship launched Brahmos is used against a USN carrier group then the onus of detection will be with the fleet's early warning air borne radar likely the Hawkeye E-2D. The Brahmos is known to have a range of 300 km so the launch will likely occur within the detection range of the Hawkeye. Examine the familiar image of a Brahmos launch, notice the white smoke or plume trailing the missile.



A plume is defined as " a moving formation of hot exhaust gases (and often also with entrained small particles) outside the rocket nozzle. This gas formation is not uniform in structure, velocity or composition. It contains several different flow regions and supersonic shock waves. It is usually visible as a brilliant flame, emits intense radiation energy in the infrared, visible and ultra violet segments of the spectrum and is a strong source of noise" -page 710, Rocket Propulsion Elements By George P. Sutton, Oscar Biblarz

It is an established fact that the plume effect increases the radar cross section of all rockets. This has been established by radar observation of countless rocket launches and has been reproduced under laboratory conditions. Please read below the conclusions of an Italian researcher on the subject.
The use of the MoM for the RCS calculation of the missile+plume system has finally led to
the following conclusions:

1) the effect of the plume generally provokes an increase in the value of the RCS;
2) the resonance effect can be studied accordingly with the particular system specification.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA447064

Plumes that are invisible to the naked eye are still visible to the radar due to a phenomenon known as stochastic Bragg scatter. As an example thermal plumes that cause turbulence especially during take off or landing is visible to the radar while it is invisible to the naked eye see below image of forest fire plumes on a Doppler weather radar.



You can't throw Mach 3 or "TRISONIC" energy into the universe and expect the universe not to notice my guess is the fleet has nearly six minutes to react.

A little known fact, can you guess which air plane has the dubious distinction of being the most radar observable airplane in history - it is the SR-71 Blackbird. Despite its OXCART design incorporating stealth features. The SR-71 was easily observed due to the hot plumes and aerodynamic heating of the skin at MACH speeds.

I don't want y'all to misunderstand, I think the Brahmos is the biggest threat to surface vessels and will stress the defenses of capable navies. However, I do wish to emphasize that the Brahmos can be defeated especially by a well equipped, well trained and alert crew.
 
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DBC the six minute reaction time is for a missile that is launched 300km away from it's target??? IMO reaction time
would be less than 3 minutes. Basically the ships defenses would be Hawkeye,ESSM,seaRam, Phalanx and LRCS , ECCM
on the bigger ships. Planes like Superhornets have AESA radar but they would have a minimal to a secondary role at best.
So far the track record for ships defenses against missiles is terrible 0-2. The Sheffield claimed their radars were off that is
very strange for a ship close to enemy territory if true why wasn't the Captain Court Marshalled. The Israel incident could be
summarized as an intelligence failure. Out of the defenses I mentioned above more than 50% would be ineffective from
the start.The other 50% are untested and like you mentioned a well trained staff working in perfect syncronization to make
it happen.Well 100% of the staff probably have little to no real life experience in having done this before. Using Iran as an
example of the present time.US ships have specific orders to stay 100-150 km away from the Iranian coast, there is a threat
that Iranians may have sunburn or sizzler. The fear is not only from those missiles. there is also a fear that Iranians may
have Kh-31 that they can air launch from Mirages. The US navy does not have faith in the defenses or the well trained staff.
IMO not even 5% of Brahmos of missiles would be intercepted after detection.
 
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death.by.chocolate

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DBC the six minute reaction time is for a missile that is launched 300km away from it's target??? IMO reaction time
would be less than 3 minutes.
Reaction time is exactly 5.25 minutes if launched from 300 Km, Mach 2.8 translates to 952 m/sec at an altitude of 10 m. I have provided a link to the NASA calculator.
http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/machu.html

As I said earlier in order to reach a conclusion about the effectiveness of interception missiles we have to exclude real world complications including the human factor.
My assumption is that the Brahmos is detected early and counter-measures have been initiated in this scenario intercept missiles such as ESSM, SM-2 and Aster have a good probability of intercept.
 
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Armand2REP

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Reaction time is exactly 5.25 minutes if launched from 300 Km,
Reaction time is how fast you can respond once you see it. You will not know it is coming at 300km range even with an AWACs over your head. To see something as small as a Brahmos against the backdrop of waves from an AWACs will be well under 100km. Without an AWACs it will less than 30km.
 
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Reaction time is exactly 5.25 minutes if launched from 300 Km, Mach 2.8 translates to 952 m/sec at an altitude of 10 m. I have provided a link to the NASA calculator.
http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/machu.html

As I said earlier in order to reach a conclusion about the effectiveness of interception missiles we have to exclude real world complications including the human factor.
My assumption is that the Brahmos is detected early and counter-measures have been initiated in this scenario intercept missiles such as ESSM, SM-2 and Aster have a good probability of intercept.
This is in a textbook scenario the real world in not a textbook, you would not know where or when the exact launch took place so this is next 0% chance of interception. If Armand is right and Brahmos would be detected at the last 30km-100km it will be less than 30 seconds ,that is not enough time for everything to work perfectly for interception so the chance of interception at that point would close to 0% not even the 5% I said earlier..
 
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death.by.chocolate

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Reaction time is how fast you can respond once you see it. You will not know it is coming at 300km range even with an AWACs over your head. To see something as small as a Brahmos against the backdrop of waves from an AWACs will be well under 100km. Without an AWACs it will less than 30km.
Really! under 100km? What is your detection range theory based on?

You clearly don't have a clue read post #424 and get one!

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...nd-Discussions?p=140997&viewfull=1#post140997
 

nrj

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To know if Brahmos like missile is interceptable or not, it'll have to take Real World test involving Brahmos like target & similar terminal phase while supposed to be intercepted by very well developed precise interceptor missile.
 

death.by.chocolate

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This is in a textbook scenario the real world in not a textbook, you would not know where or when the exact launch took place so this is next 0% chance of interception. If Armand is right and Brahmos would be detected at the last 30km-100km it will be less than 30 seconds ,that is not enough time for everything to work perfectly for interception so the chance of interception at that point would close to 0% not even the 5% I said earlier..
Armand claims 100km, the Erieye fact sheet claims at an altitude of 10,000 a low flying subsonic cruise missile is detected at 200km in a post launch sea skimming profile, read post #424 if you haven't already. Remember a subsonic cruise missile like the TomaHawk has a much longer range than the Brahmos and the launch will likely occur beyond the detection capability of the air borne radar (over the horizon).

Gentlemen, we are talking about a super hot, MACH 2.8 screaming, hot gas spewing missile not a low observable subsonic cruise missile.

Read the Italian research paper link I provided, today researchers are able to identify the species of migratory birds using high resolution long range iSAR.
The Brahmos is much larger than a bird - no?
 
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death.by.chocolate

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To know if Brahmos like missile is interceptable or not, it'll have to take Real World test involving Brahmos like target & similar terminal phase while supposed to be intercepted by very well developed precise interceptor missile.
Has Brahmos Aerospace tested their missile against interceptors like ASTER, Barak 8,SM-2 or ESSM? Isn't it premature to claim invincibility until such tests are performed scientifically to asses the effectiveness of the Brahmos against intercept missiles? At least the ESSM, SM-2 and ASTER has been tested against missiles that mimic the Brahmos in threat scenario A,B and C - has the Brahmos been similarly tested against a missile as capable as the ESSM, SM-2 or ASTER?
 
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Armand2REP

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Armand claims 100km, the Erieye fact sheet claims at an altitude of 10,000 a low flying subsonic cruise missile is detected at 200km in a post launch sea skimming profile
Don't see anying about it...

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents and Images/Air/Sensor Systems/ERIEYE/ERIEYE EN Print.pdf

Gentlemen, we are talking about a super hot, MACH 2.8 screaming, hot gas spewing missile not a low observable subsonic cruise missile.
It is a Ramjet engine, quite a bit different than spewing a bunch of hot gas. Radars do not detect heat, only the plume and a ramjet in supersonic flight has very little.
 

death.by.chocolate

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Don't see anying about it...

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents and Images/Air/Sensor Systems/ERIEYE/ERIEYE EN Print.pdf
It is a Ramjet engine, quite a bit different than spewing a bunch of hot gas. Radars do not detect heat, only the plume and a ramjet in supersonic flight has very little.
Wrong! Ramjet ejects pressurized hot gas as a result of imperfect combustion of pressurized air and fuel.
Radar does not detect heat but it is sensitive to thermal gradients produced by the hot emission and aerodynamically heated skin.
Even a humble weather radar is able to detect thermal gradients.

The aircraft also used special radar-absorbing materials which were incorporated into sawtooth shaped sections of the skin of the aircraft, as well as cesium-based fuel additives to reduce the exhaust plumes' visibility on radar. Despite these efforts, the SR-71 was still easily detected on radar while traveling at speed due to its large exhaust stream and air heated by the body (large thermal gradients in the atmosphere are detectable with radar).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-71_Blackbird

Finally, look at graphic on the top left corner of the Erieye brochure it clearly shows a cruise missile between 180-200 km.
Subsonic cruise missiles are a lot harder to detect for the following reasons:

1. Launch occurs at distances greater than the detection range of radars protecting the target.
2. In comparison to supersonic ASCM, subsonic missiles are capable of lower altitude terrain hugging or sea skimming profile.
 

nrj

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Has Brahmos Aerospace tested their missile against interceptors like ASTER, Barak 8,SM-2 or ESSM?
Brahmos is attack missile program. India's Interception program will try Bramhos. Don't worry PDV or future BMD tests will involve Brahmos soon.

Isn't it premature to claim invincibility until such tests are performed scientifically to asses the effectiveness of the Brahmos against intercept missiles?
IMO Interception tests involving Brahmos like target are not performed by India /Russia or by any country. So till such successful test arises nothing is premature but is absolute.


At least the ESSM, SM-2 and ASTER has been tested against missiles that mimic the Brahmos in threat scenario
Again where are the real interception tests ??
 
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p2prada

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Reaction time is exactly 5.25 minutes if launched from 300 Km, Mach 2.8 translates to 952 m/sec at an altitude of 10 m. I have provided a link to the NASA calculator.
http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/machu.html

As I said earlier in order to reach a conclusion about the effectiveness of interception missiles we have to exclude real world complications including the human factor.
My assumption is that the Brahmos is detected early and counter-measures have been initiated in this scenario intercept missiles such as ESSM, SM-2 and Aster have a good probability of intercept.
At 10m altitude the Brahmos will be able to do less than 120km. The 300km range is for a different flight regime.

Nevertheless the Brahmos is detectable and can be engaged. The only drawback is there is not a single defence system that exists today that can stop it as of now. If the Brahmos is fired in a salvo, then even systems like the ESSM or Aster can be overwhelmed. The logic is simple; 1 ship, 1 MKI, 3 Brahmos.

SM-2 cannot stop the Brahmos, it is way too outdated and is meant for slower targets.
 
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death.by.chocolate

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At 10m altitude the Brahmos will be able to do less than 120km. The 300km range is for a different flight regime.

Nevertheless the Brahmos is detectable and can be engaged. The only drawback is there is not a single defence system that exists today that can stop it as of now. If the Brahmos is fired in a salvo, then even systems like the ESSM or Aster can be overwhelmed. The logic is simple; 1 ship, 1 MKI, 3 Brahmos.

SM-2 cannot stop the Brahmos, it is way too outdated and is meant for slower targets.
Do you believe a USN carrier fleet will allow an MKI wielding three Brahmos to get anywhere close to launch range?

These engagement has been against all target types from subsonic to supersonic from small to large radar cross section.


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You don't need to launch Brahmos from a sukhoi, a sub launch or ship launch would do the trick, the
Brahmos is unstoppable people like to take comfort in a false sense of security,but that is the truth. Not just
Brahmos but any missile flying above MACH 2 fired in a salvo would achieve the same results. ESSM is uproven,
Sea sparrow unproven and ineffective beyond MACH 2.5.Phalanx ineffective did not save the HMH sheffield from
Arganetine exocet. AWACS would not pick up a missile flying 30 feet above sea level. LRCS and ECCM deception
tactics unproven and would not fool the missiles guidance system. Forget dreaming about intercepting
Brahmos someone explain how it would be detected first?? By the time it is detected one minute later would be the end.
Remember in 2005 a Chinese sub appeared undetected within 25 miles of a US carrier easy striking distance, even with all this
hype of technology,radar,AWACS etc .. could not pick up the sub until it surfaced and revealed itself. If a sub was undetected
I am 100% sure BRAHMOS will never be detected until it's too late and when it is still will be uninterceptable.


http://www.sinodaily.com/reports/Chinese_Sub_Approached_US_Aircraft_Carrier_Undetected_999.html

Chinese Sub Approached US Aircraft Carrier Undetected

A Chinese submarine came within a few miles (kilometers) of a US aircraft carrier in international waters near Okinawa last month without being detected, a Pentagon spokesman confirmed Tuesday. Spokesman Bryan Whitman played down the security breach, saying he did not believe the Chinese Song-class submarine was considered a threat.

"I think you're generating more concern than perhaps is warranted," he told reporters.

But submarines of the type involved in the incident carry weapons capable of striking a carrier from a distance of more than 25 miles (40 km), an expert on the Chinese military said.

"Any time a potentially hostile submare operates in such proximity to critical naval assets like an aircraft carrier should be of concern to American military leaders," said Richard Fisher.

The Washington
Times, which first reported the encounter, said the navy was reviewing its anti-submarine defenses and that China analysts at the Pentagon were surprised that a Chinese submarine was operating so far from the mainland.

Whitman said a US naval strike group led by the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk was conducting routine training operations in the East China sea near Okinawa in October when the incident occurred.

"During these operations a Chinese Navy Song-class submarine was sighted near the strike group by US Navy aircraft," he said.

"My understanding is that this was several miles away," he said.

The Kitty Hawk was not actively engaged in anti-submarine warfare operations during the exercise, Whitman said, explaining why it did not detect the Chinese submarine sooner.

The Pentagon spokesman said he was not aware that any complaints had been lodged with the Chinese.

News of the incident came as commander of the US Pacific Fleed, Admiral Gary Roughead, was in Beijing for talks with Chinese military leaders ahead of a joint search and rescue exercise in the South China Sea.

"I really would like to know what the intent is in some of the developments that I see in the PLA navy," Roughead told reporters Monday.

He said these included the expansion of China's submarine fleet and procurement of ships.

"I look foward to having discussions about what the vision is and perhaps what some of the operating doctrine might be," Roughead said.

Fisher said incidents at sea between the two navies are likely to increase as China's ocean-going naval operations expand in the years ahead.

"It is my opinion the Chinese are going to be posturing against US military forces in Asia increasingly in the coming years," he told AFP.

"They are building a blue water navy. They have made clear in the past, a bit more subtly but consistently, that they are not at all accepting of the American military presence in what they see as their sphere of influence," he said.

He said China appears to be building a base on the tip of Hainan Island
from which to deploy ballistic missile submarines and possibly future aircraft carriers across the South China Sea between China and Philippines.

"As a consequence I expect there may be many opportunities for naval incidents as the Chinese take exception to the presence of American navy ships transiting between northeast Asia and the Persian Gulf," he said.

Hainan Island was where a US Navy EP-3 surveillance plane collided with a Chinese fighter on April 1, 2001 in the last major US-Chinese military confrontation.

The latest incident occurred near Okinawa where the bulk of US forces in Japan are based.

"In the event of a general, out-of-the-blue Chinese attack against Taiwan, in my opinion they will also attack all American forces in Japan," Fisher said.

"Making sure their submarine commanders are familiar with operating around Okinawa or close to Japan is a competency the Chinese want to develop," he said.
 
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death.by.chocolate

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I am 100% BRAHMOS will never be detected.
If you say so - disbelief is your prerogative, you claim the Brahmos will go undetected because a submarine got close to an aircraft carrier during DEFCON 5 peace time protocol =omg=.
In any case I'm done talking about the Brahmos, folks here are too emotional to present rationale plausible arguments.
 

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