AWACS will change Asia's military dynamics

LETHALFORCE

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Chinese AWACS are reportedly a coy of SAAB eeryie, just more stupidity by the pakistanis to get the original and get copies from China on different platforms but when things are free you take what you can get.
 

badguy2000

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Chinese AWACS are reportedly a coy of SAAB eeryie, just more stupidity by the pakistanis to get the original and get copies from China on different platforms but when things are free you take what you can get.
China has develped 3 AWACs:
1. KJ2000 with il76 as platform; it is the most advanced and powerful,of course most expensive.

its NO. is limited ,because CHinese can not produce plance as big as IL76 by themselves.

2.KJ200 with Chinese Y8 as platform. it is a mediu-size AWAC and Chinese can mass-produce it,because Y8 has been mass-produced in China for decades.
it is reported that KJ200 will also be the AWAC for CHinese AC carriers.

3. balance beam: it is quite likeSAAB eeryie: it should be speicialy designed for export to Pakistan.

FYI:

KJ2000


from the left ,the 1st and 2ed are KJ2000; the 3th and 4th are KJ200; the last is balance beam;
 

LETHALFORCE

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Chinese Crash Kills Top Engineers

Chinese Crash Kills Top Engineers

Charles R. Smith
Thursday, June 15, 2006


Accident Is Major Blow to Developing New Weapon

China has suffered a major setback in developing an advanced air defense system. The recent crash of a so-called "transport" plane, killing 40, has turned out to be a blow against the Chinese air force (People's Liberation Army Air Force, or PLAAF) ambitions to provide a 21st century force.

The downed aircraft has been identified by several sources as an airborne radar plane carrying Chinese electronics experts. The aircraft slammed into a hillside in central Anhui Province, killing all 35 technicians and the five-member crew.

"It is not clear whether the aircraft involved is the KJ-2000, a derivative of the Russian/Israeli A-50/Phalcon AWACS, or a new version of the smaller Xian Y-8 'Balance Beam' AWACS. Scant photo evidence suggests it may be the latter," stated Rick Fisher, vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

"In either case, this is a setback for PLA's ambition to excel in this critical area of high-tech warfare," noted Fisher.

The aircraft may have been loaded with so many top Chinese technicians because China wanted to avoid having to transmit test performance information to the ground. The U.S. has the capability to intercept Chinese air-to-ground signals and could use the information to determine the capability and weakness of the airborne radar.



Big or Little Loss?

Yet the critical question being circulated inside defense circles is which type of Chinese radar plane was destroyed. The fuzzy photographs released by Beijing suggest it was the smaller and less sophisticated Y-8 turboprop radar aircraft code-named "Balance Beam."

The Y-8 is a Chinese version of the Russian four-engine AN-12 military transport. The aircraft was developed with the assistance of Ukrainian Antonov Design Bureau. The new Y-8 Chinese airborne radar plane includes navigation avionics from U.S. maker Honeywell, four Pratt and Whitney Canada PW150B turboprop engines and British Dodi R-408 six-blade propellers.

"The Y-8 platform is especially noteworthy because it will likely be marketed as an inexpensive alternative to Western and Russian AWACS, and be seen in places like Iran," stated Fisher.

The Y-8 "Balance Beam" is fitted with a linear-shape electronically steered phased-array (ESA) radar. The radar is similar in shape and size to the Swedish Ericsson PS-890 Erieye airborne radar. The radar is to be manufactured by the PLA 38th Institute.

The Y-8 "Balance Beam" will provide the PLAAF with a platform for tactical airborne early warning and electronic intelligence missions. The "Balance Beam" is designed to coordinate Chinese fighters, bombers and strike aircraft via data links in air campaigns against Taiwan, Japan, India or the U.S.

However, the Y-8 crew count does not correspond to the five crew members that Chinese officials say died in the radar plane crash. The Y-8 is manned by only two or three crewmembers. It is also questionable whether the Y-8 could carry onboard radar, test equipment and the additional 35 engineers/passengers.

In fact, the published death count indicates that the crash may have been a larger aircraft such as the extremely expensive – and much more sophisticated – KJ-2000 radar plane. The KJ-2000 radar plane is based on a Russian jet transport, the Il-76. The KJ-2000 reportedly has a five-member crew and has the capability to carry the additional 35 technicians with test equipment.

The KJ-2000 surveillance plane is reportedly fitted with a Chinese-made airborne radar system at Xian Aircraft Industry Co. (XAC). The aircraft made its first flight in November 2003.

Two KJ-2000s, one based on a Russian radar plane purchased by China and one converted from a PLAAF IL-76MD transport have been delivered to the PLAAF for operational evaluation and tests. According to reports from Beijing, a total of four KJ-2000 aircraft will eventually be built.

New Radar or New Weapon?

Another item raising questions inside Western intelligence circles is what the Chinese radar plane was testing when it went down. According to Fisher, the electronics installed on the KJ-2000 and Y-8 "Balance Beam" aircraft can be used for far more than simple tracking.

"Both platforms are testing different types of active phased array radar, which can serve as a highly flexible and difficult-to-jam radar, or if refined via software and more capable transmit-receive modules, can also become a microwave weapon that can directly attack enemy electronics," stated Fisher.

"For example, if they can 'see' an approaching AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile, the most important U.S.-made air-to-air missile, then it can also likely 'fry' the missile's microchips, rendering it inoperable," stated Fisher.

The U.S. Air Force has already demonstrated the capability of powerful scanned array radar systems. The AESA (Advanced Electronically Scanned Array) radar fitted on the F-22 Raptor demonstrated that it can penetrate the sophisticated electronic guidance systems of a missile in flight and disable it.

Pentagon engineers are testing the radar against a variety of missile threats. The tests have already demonstrated that the AESA radar can burn out or disable missile guidance systems.

The AESA radar has proven to be so adept and powerful that it can overwhelm, jam and even intercept enemy communications. The computer-controlled radar can use the latest information warfare spy algorithms to insert false data or plant a computer virus intended to bug and monitor the enemy communications.

There is evidence that China is trying to develop similar radar-based weapons. According to the 2006 Pentagon report on Chinese military power, PRC officials have publicly indicated their intent to acquire advanced microwave weapons such as the AESA as a means of defeating technologically advanced military forces.

"Chinese writings have suggested that RF (Radio Frequency) weapons could be used against C4ISR, guided missiles, computer networks, electronically-fused mines, aircraft carrier battle groups, and satellites in orbit," states the report.

"Analysis of Chinese technical literature indicates a major effort is underway to develop the technologies required for RF weapons, including high-power radio frequency sources, prime-power generators, and antennas to radiate RF pulses. Chinese scientists are also investigating the effects of RF pulses on electronics and the propagation of these pulses through building walls and through the atmosphere. Furthermore, China appears to be assessing its own vulnerability to RF weapons and exploring ways to 'harden' electronics," notes the Pentagon report.

Most defense analysts agree that the loss of a single experimental radar plane can be seen as only a temporary setback for the Chinese air force. The People's Liberation Army can quickly recover from such a setback.

However, the loss of an advanced microwave weapon, and the expert team of scientists developing it, can be viewed as a crippling blow against the ambitions of Chinese warlords to start and win a war before the end of this decade.
 

LETHALFORCE

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China has develped 3 AWACs:
1. KJ2000 with il76 as platform; it is the most advanced and powerful,of course most expensive.

its NO. is limited ,because CHinese can not produce plance as big as IL76 by themselves.

2.KJ200 with Chinese Y8 as platform. it is a mediu-size AWAC and Chinese can mass-produce it,because Y8 has been mass-produced in China for decades.
it is reported that KJ200 will also be the AWAC for CHinese AC carriers.

3. balance beam: it is quite likeSAAB eeryie: it should be speicialy designed for export to Pakistan.:2guns:

FYI:

KJ2000


from the left ,the 1st and 2ed are KJ2000; the 3th and 4th are KJ200; the last is balance beam;
according to the article above all 3 of these are different versions of SAAB eeryie?
 

badguy2000

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Chinese Crash Kills Top Engineers

Chinese Crash Kills Top Engineers

Charles R. Smith
Thursday, June 15, 2006


Accident Is Major Blow to Developing New Weapon

China has suffered a major setback in developing an advanced air defense system. The recent crash of a so-called "transport" plane, killing 40, has turned out to be a blow against the Chinese air force (People's Liberation Army Air Force, or PLAAF) ambitions to provide a 21st century force.

The downed aircraft has been identified by several sources as an airborne radar plane carrying Chinese electronics experts. The aircraft slammed into a hillside in central Anhui Province, killing all 35 technicians and the five-member crew.

"It is not clear whether the aircraft involved is the KJ-2000, a derivative of the Russian/Israeli A-50/Phalcon AWACS, or a new version of the smaller Xian Y-8 'Balance Beam' AWACS. Scant photo evidence suggests it may be the latter," stated Rick Fisher, vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

"In either case, this is a setback for PLA's ambition to excel in this critical area of high-tech warfare," noted Fisher.

The aircraft may have been loaded with so many top Chinese technicians because China wanted to avoid having to transmit test performance information to the ground. The U.S. has the capability to intercept Chinese air-to-ground signals and could use the information to determine the capability and weakness of the airborne radar.



Big or Little Loss?

Yet the critical question being circulated inside defense circles is which type of Chinese radar plane was destroyed. The fuzzy photographs released by Beijing suggest it was the smaller and less sophisticated Y-8 turboprop radar aircraft code-named "Balance Beam."

The Y-8 is a Chinese version of the Russian four-engine AN-12 military transport. The aircraft was developed with the assistance of Ukrainian Antonov Design Bureau. The new Y-8 Chinese airborne radar plane includes navigation avionics from U.S. maker Honeywell, four Pratt and Whitney Canada PW150B turboprop engines and British Dodi R-408 six-blade propellers.

"The Y-8 platform is especially noteworthy because it will likely be marketed as an inexpensive alternative to Western and Russian AWACS, and be seen in places like Iran," stated Fisher.

The Y-8 "Balance Beam" is fitted with a linear-shape electronically steered phased-array (ESA) radar. The radar is similar in shape and size to the Swedish Ericsson PS-890 Erieye airborne radar. The radar is to be manufactured by the PLA 38th Institute.

The Y-8 "Balance Beam" will provide the PLAAF with a platform for tactical airborne early warning and electronic intelligence missions. The "Balance Beam" is designed to coordinate Chinese fighters, bombers and strike aircraft via data links in air campaigns against Taiwan, Japan, India or the U.S.

However, the Y-8 crew count does not correspond to the five crew members that Chinese officials say died in the radar plane crash. The Y-8 is manned by only two or three crewmembers. It is also questionable whether the Y-8 could carry onboard radar, test equipment and the additional 35 engineers/passengers.

In fact, the published death count indicates that the crash may have been a larger aircraft such as the extremely expensive – and much more sophisticated – KJ-2000 radar plane. The KJ-2000 radar plane is based on a Russian jet transport, the Il-76. The KJ-2000 reportedly has a five-member crew and has the capability to carry the additional 35 technicians with test equipment.

The KJ-2000 surveillance plane is reportedly fitted with a Chinese-made airborne radar system at Xian Aircraft Industry Co. (XAC). The aircraft made its first flight in November 2003.

Two KJ-2000s, one based on a Russian radar plane purchased by China and one converted from a PLAAF IL-76MD transport have been delivered to the PLAAF for operational evaluation and tests. According to reports from Beijing, a total of four KJ-2000 aircraft will eventually be built.

New Radar or New Weapon?

Another item raising questions inside Western intelligence circles is what the Chinese radar plane was testing when it went down. According to Fisher, the electronics installed on the KJ-2000 and Y-8 "Balance Beam" aircraft can be used for far more than simple tracking.

"Both platforms are testing different types of active phased array radar, which can serve as a highly flexible and difficult-to-jam radar, or if refined via software and more capable transmit-receive modules, can also become a microwave weapon that can directly attack enemy electronics," stated Fisher.

"For example, if they can 'see' an approaching AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile, the most important U.S.-made air-to-air missile, then it can also likely 'fry' the missile's microchips, rendering it inoperable," stated Fisher.

The U.S. Air Force has already demonstrated the capability of powerful scanned array radar systems. The AESA (Advanced Electronically Scanned Array) radar fitted on the F-22 Raptor demonstrated that it can penetrate the sophisticated electronic guidance systems of a missile in flight and disable it.

Pentagon engineers are testing the radar against a variety of missile threats. The tests have already demonstrated that the AESA radar can burn out or disable missile guidance systems.

The AESA radar has proven to be so adept and powerful that it can overwhelm, jam and even intercept enemy communications. The computer-controlled radar can use the latest information warfare spy algorithms to insert false data or plant a computer virus intended to bug and monitor the enemy communications.

There is evidence that China is trying to develop similar radar-based weapons. According to the 2006 Pentagon report on Chinese military power, PRC officials have publicly indicated their intent to acquire advanced microwave weapons such as the AESA as a means of defeating technologically advanced military forces.

"Chinese writings have suggested that RF (Radio Frequency) weapons could be used against C4ISR, guided missiles, computer networks, electronically-fused mines, aircraft carrier battle groups, and satellites in orbit," states the report.

"Analysis of Chinese technical literature indicates a major effort is underway to develop the technologies required for RF weapons, including high-power radio frequency sources, prime-power generators, and antennas to radiate RF pulses. Chinese scientists are also investigating the effects of RF pulses on electronics and the propagation of these pulses through building walls and through the atmosphere. Furthermore, China appears to be assessing its own vulnerability to RF weapons and exploring ways to 'harden' electronics," notes the Pentagon report.

Most defense analysts agree that the loss of a single experimental radar plane can be seen as only a temporary setback for the Chinese air force. The People's Liberation Army can quickly recover from such a setback.

However, the loss of an advanced microwave weapon, and the expert team of scientists developing it, can be viewed as a crippling blow against the ambitions of Chinese warlords to start and win a war before the end of this decade.
the crashed were KJ200, the mid-size AWAC.
 

LETHALFORCE

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these Chinese AWACS don't have datalink with ground control how exactly will countries buying them use them?? and how will USA feel linking F-16's in pakistan to Chinese AWACS?? so F-16 will remain vulnerable for pakistan?
 

p2prada

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"For example, if they can 'see' an approaching AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile, the most important U.S.-made air-to-air missile, then it can also likely 'fry' the missile's microchips, rendering it inoperable," stated Fisher.
^^^
That's from the article.

It talks about HPW(High Power microwave). As of date, it has been fictional. Frying a circuit from vey far through air is difficult as of now. It would require a huge transfer of energy through wireless. As of date, only very small quantities of electricity transfer has been achievable.

Perhaps, at a later date, that will be more believable.
 

badguy2000

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according to the article above all 3 of these are different versions of SAAB eeryie?
the big one(KJ2000) is more like E3 and the ... india import from Israel.

it is very enpensive..Pakistan can not afford it. besides it, PLA are not ready to export it most advanced toy;

KJ2000 is the prodcut of Nanjing 14th Institute. the R&D of KJ2000 was almost aborted after PLA ordered Phalcon of Israel in 1990s .But thanks for the God, Israel canceled the deal of Phalcon and sold the ordered PHalcon to India. PLA has to poured the fund to indigenious KJ2000; so, the project of KJ2000 came back to life .

Ironically, KJ2000 came into service of PLA even more early than PHalcon sold to India.:blum3:



the mid-size one (KJ200) is the low-cost makeup ,because NO. of KJ2000 is too limited( maybe only 4 or so); besides, it is also the AWAC for pla'S AC Carrier.




well, sorry ,i made a mistake here. KJ200 is the "balance beam"

the third kind of Chinese AWAC,Chinese export AWAC, is not "balance beam" ,but a "small Mushroom" on Y8. it is the downgraded version of KJ2000.It was once sent to Pakistan for test.
 

LETHALFORCE

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the big one(KJ2000) is more like E3 and the toy india import from Israel.

an error here badguy E3 does not compare to Phalcon


is very enpensive..Pakistan can not afford it. besides it, PLA are not ready to export it most advanced toy;

Pakistan gets thing for free so why give good stuff free

KJ2000 is the prodcut of Nanjing 14th Institute. the R&D of KJ2000 was almost aborted after PLA ordered Phalcon of Israel in 1990s .But thanks for the God, Israel canceled the deal of Phalcon and sold the ordered PHalcon to India. PLA has to poured the fund to indigenious KJ2000; so, the project of KJ2000 came back to life .

Ironically, KJ2000 came into service of PLA even more early than PHalcon sold to India.:blum3:

This is also an error in comparision. And Israel cancelled the deal due to US pressure.
KJ2000 is only believed to be slightly better than E3 SAAB



the mid-one (KJ200) is the low-cost makeup ,because NO. of KJ2000 is too limited( maybe only 4 or so); besides, it is also the AWAC for pla'S AC Carrier.


balance beam is speical export version.....


this is more of a mini AWAC that India has also developed

India to build mini-AWACS-05/10/2004-Flight International
 

p2prada

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these Chinese AWACS don't have datalink with ground control how exactly will countries buying them use them?? and how will USA feel linking F-16's in pakistan to Chinese AWACS?? so F-16 will remain vulnerable for pakistan?
Chinese aerospace industry has been using the MIL STD 1553 mate. They are GCI capable, not sure if it's mature enough. If the Chinese are capable, then they will be able to integrate the AWACS with PAF's existing radar network. But, that will be nowhere compared to our own AFNET(Airforce Network).

As far as F-16 is concerned, it is vulnerable. But, the Y8 or KJ-2000 will maintain radio contact with the F-16 for vectoring on target coordinates. Missiles like the Aim-120 can be fired blind. Once the missile comes within 20km of the target, the seeker kicks in and paints the target automatically. KJ-2000 can provide coordinates for mid course guidance. It's a headache though. But, it keeps the missile hidden until vectoring(considering the target is not equipped with AESA or is not in the Phalcon coverage).
 

LETHALFORCE

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yes P2P but Pakistan is not getting the KJ2000 they are getting y-8/9 something similar to the SAAB? and the range of KJ2000 is greater than Y-8 and for y-8 to be effective would put it in range of our AWAC killer missiles( 400km) and our Phalcon.
 

badguy2000

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Chinese aerospace industry has been using the MIL STD 1553 mate. They are GCI capable, not sure if it's mature enough. If the Chinese are capable, then they will be able to integrate the AWACS with PAF's existing radar network. But, that will be nowhere compared to our own AFNET(Airforce Network).

As far as F-16 is concerned, it is vulnerable. But, the Y8 or KJ-2000 will maintain radio contact with the F-16 for vectoring on target coordinates. Missiles like the Aim-120 can be fired blind. Once the missile comes within 20km of the target, the seeker kicks in and paints the target automatically. KJ-2000 can provide coordinates for mid course guidance. It's a headache though. But, it keeps the missile hidden until vectoring(considering the target is not equipped with AESA or is not in the Phalcon coverage).
well, In fact, it is widely reported that PLA now feel it lucky that abortion of Israel Phalcon let the project of KJ2000 come back of life.:blum3:

If Israel continue the deal and KJ2000 got aborted, CHinese indigenious AWAC would be put off at least 1 decade;
 

badguy2000

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yes P2P but Pakistan is not getting the KJ2000 they are getting y-8/9 something similar to the SAAB? and the range of KJ2000 is greater than Y-8 and for y-8 to be effective would put it in range of our AWAC killer missiles( 400km) and our Phalcon.
that is downgrade of KJ2000...it maybe not the most advanced,but has high performance/price:blum3:

More clear KJ200(balance beam)
 

F-14

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Damm got to hand it to them the Chinies are good at copying
 

Known_Unknown

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badguy, why do you feel the impulsive need to put a tongue showing smiley at the end of each and every post? It seems too immature and degrades the quality of the discussion.
 

p2prada

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yes P2P but Pakistan is not getting the KJ2000 they are getting y-8/9 something similar to the SAAB?
It's not a problem. Ultimately the AESA used on the AWACS are similar. The difference will lie in data processing.

The capabilities of the KJ-2000 is relatively unknown. They have operationalized their AESA sometime ago. They claim to have a capable AEGIS like system on their ships. They also claim to have AESA on their ships.

But they have agreed that the KJ-2000 is still not as effective as the Phalcon. Also, the ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT capabilities are largely unknown.

The Phalcon can finish a 360deg scan in 1-2 seconds and can track target coordinates in less than 3 seconds. The SAR can generate terrain images in a fraction of a second too and the passive surveillance capabilities exceed the radar detection range for the Phalcon.

If the Chinese have been able to achieve even 50% of that, it's a very, very big achievement. The Chinese were exposed to the 2075 technical specifications for quite sometime. If their memory is good, they will be able to copy some parts of it.
 

LETHALFORCE

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It's not a problem. Ultimately the AESA used on the AWACS are similar. The difference will lie in data processing.

The capabilities of the KJ-2000 is relatively unknown. They have operationalized their AESA sometime ago. They claim to have a capable AEGIS like system on their ships. They also claim to have AESA on their ships.

But they have agreed that the KJ-2000 is still not as effective as the Phalcon. Also, the ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT capabilities are largely unknown.

The Phalcon can finish a 360deg scan in 1-2 seconds and can track target coordinates in less than 3 seconds. The SAR can generate terrain images in a fraction of a second too and the passive surveillance capabilities exceed the radar detection range for the Phalcon.

If the Chinese have been able to achieve even 50% of that, it's a very, very big achievement. The Chinese were exposed to the 2075 technical specifications for quite sometime. If their memory is good, they will be able to copy some parts of it.


I highly doubt any of these come close to their claims KJ-200 was also on hold for a long time and y-8/9 with pakistan has aso not be completed, when completed it will be an inferior SAAB EERYIE. One last point China has not been able to make a radar for j-10 and they are making AWACS interesting.
 

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