Astra BVRAAM

[p2prada]

R&D is over long back. The project started almost a decade back.

Astra was first tested without control and guidance systems in 2003. Another 2 test took place in 2003 itself. Then at least 6-7 more test occurred between 2007-2011. By 2013, most likely it would be inducted and DRDO has said more than once in recent times.

I personally think, If all news related with Astra is true (I hope DRDO not hired any 10 cent army) then it's possible that By 2014-2015, It can be used as SHORADS. Actually, It's not something very difficult. If we can make Akash, then it's easy to make Astra as SAM. (We already have all Radar, IPF, Vehicle and system required for such SHORADS)

Also, we will be operating enough no. of SpyDer, Barak-8, Akash MK1,2 by 2017.

Once we finalise Maitri/MBDA then Astra will never be used as SHORADS as we will have complete Air defence system without any major Gap. [We can speed-up Akash production & order more SpyDer system - which i think we already doing it]

Then why not go with it which is comparatively easy to do ?? It will also open the gate for Long Range SAM in future beyond 2020. We might not need to buy any such system after 2017.

Astra is still in R&D. It's not an operational missile. Once operational, we will need to see if it works as planned. This will take a few years. After that comes plans to develop a SHORAD version for which R&D could take 4 to 5 years, maybe more including testing. We will talk about it after Astra is inducted. Let's not make apples from peach trees.

SHORADs are supposed to be very advanced, they shouldn't go around shooting our own aircraft. These things have reaction times of 2 to 3 seconds. Quality cannot be compromised simply because we can build one ourselves. We aren't Iran.

Astra is a piece of cake compared to what's required for a Trishul, Spyder or Barak.

 

[Galaxy]

Astra is still in R&D. It's not an operational missile. Once operational, we will need to see if it works as planned. This will take a few years. After that comes plans to develop a SHORAD version for which R&D could take 4 to 5 years, maybe more including testing. We will talk about it after Astra is inducted. Let's not make apples from peach trees.

SHORADs are supposed to be very advanced, they shouldn't go around shooting our own aircraft. These things have reaction times of 2 to 3 seconds. Quality cannot be compromised simply because we can build one ourselves. We aren't Iran.

Astra is a piece of cake compared to what's required for a Trishul, Spyder or Barak.

Although I agree with few of your points. But It's been said many times that Astra would be operational by 2013 and as per current trend possible also.

We already have such technology. Akash, SpyDer, JV of Barak-8. 2/3rd of components we already operating. Missile doesn't shoot any flying object independently until Radars & IPF give direction which we already have. Few things we can buy from Israel if needed.

I don't see any reason why we can't make Astra as SHORAD when we already have technology. Yes, it might take few years but it would be worth as we will save money and future home made SAM industry will move upward. Also, Akash-1 & SpyDer in large number can fulfil our requirement.

I think, DRDO slow process of R&D is the main reason and not technology.

I would have not said same for Barak-8 or SpyDer as we need both on urgent basis. It would be too risky for us to develop such system on own when there are lots of gap unfilled.

2 Bn $ for new SHORAD is not great idea when it can be done with few hundred Millions that also in large number. Just my personal thought.

 

[Payeng]

Any news that claims that India is able produce her own Active radar seeker?

 

[Payeng]

Galaxy I dont think Israel will sell us Active Radar seeker technology or the components in loose the the importance of the LR-SAM project collaboration with the Israelis were the Active radar seeker technology, they offered the Package (Barak-8 )but not the component for us to implement it on a desi missile.

 

[p2prada]

Although I agree with few of your points. But It's been said many times that Astra would be operational by 2013 and as per current trend possible also.

We already have such technology. Akash, SpyDer, JV of Barak-8. 2/3rd of components we already operating. Missile doesn't shoot any flying object independently until Radars & IPF give direction which we already have. Few things we can buy from Israel if needed.

Possessing foreign technology does not mean we can develop the same in a shorter time span or we can develop the same at all for that matter.

ToT is wrongly seen as something the R&D department can use for their own technology. ToT is meant for use of the Air force, Army or the Navy. When Mig-21 production stopped and the Soviet Union broke up, had we had relevant ToT we could have manufactured the parts ourselves in our glorified IAF workshops(garages) which deal with making spare parts.

ToT cannot be easily applied in R&D and by law we don't reverse engineer. At least on paper.

I don't see any reason why we can't make Astra as SHORAD when we already have technology. Yes, it might take few years but it would be worth as we will save money and future home made SAM industry will move upward. Also, Akash-1 & SpyDer in large number can fulfil our requirement.

The few years is a decade at best. If we start in 2013 for a land based Astra, we will take a decade to build, test and operationalize it.

I think, DRDO slow process of R&D is the main reason and not technology.

Accurate. That's why IAF needs foreign SHORADs and LLQRMs.

2 Bn $ for new SHORAD is not great idea when it can be done with few hundred Millions that also in large number. Just my personal thought.

This isn't the issue of money. This is the issue of technology. Money takes a back seat in front of technology. Things we can develop properly, IAF will buy. Things we cannot develop we buy from outside. Things which were developed and suck, plenty of those, we buy from outside.

That's all there is to procurement.

Any news that claims that India is able produce her own Active radar seeker?

Nope.

 

[nitesh]

Galaxy, the Astra seeker is still imported (There was news that home made was tested, and performance is ...... (don't ask for sources please)), I am merely pointing towards the seekers now available with us (IIR and MMW), and now we have tech to make them smaller too, which we should be able to port to Astra, making it more potent weapon

 

[Payeng]

It is doubtful that the Russians will allow an Active seeker technology component to be used in the Astra as far as I remember the Russians dont even allow a battery change on the R-77 AAM, the area where DRDO is lagging in missile development is the seeker technology.

 

[Galaxy]

Well, Everyone has some valid points but I suppose DRDO too much of delay and inclined towards foreign acquisition are the main reason.

Astra active radar seeker & its launcher have been sourced from Russia. Why they will not sell when they are already selling for A2A ?? Eventually, DRDO has to develop on it's own active seeker and launcher. Also, We do have 3D-CAR and Akash Air defence Missile. Actually what we planning to purchase or JV is similar to Akash system but in smaller range for Armed forces specially Army.

Not to forget Active radar seeker for Astra A2A will be switched on when Missiles will be in 15-20Km range and our new SHORADS requirement will also be in same range. ​

 

[Payeng]

Galaxy, if we are getting seekers from Russia we will know when we see such an test had actually occurred, till now no Indian missile uses an Active radar seeker to home on enemy target, and the Astra also have not demonstrate such a technology till date.

 

[p2prada]

Astra uses the R-77s active seeker. It is quite well known. However it is supposed to be an interim need and will be replaced by a home made one for operational units.

There are rumours of a MICA seeker on the Astra as well. But treat it as rumours only.

 

[Galaxy]

Galaxy, if we are getting seekers from Russia we will know when we see such an test had actually occurred, till now no Indian missile uses an Active radar seeker to home on enemy target, and the Astra also have not demonstrate such a technology till date.

Actually we are getting Active radar seeker from Russia for Astra and from Israel for SpyDer/Barak. Of course, all will be operational.

Let me tell in simple words. We have Akash air defence system (30 Km) and we looking for something like Akash air defence system but in range of 15Km.

We have also started inducting SpyDer with 30Km range for IAF. IAF will deploy both Akash as well as SpyDer for 30Km range. If important airbase like Gwalior and Pune will have Akash that means it's important one. Otherwise why Total order for Akash is already 5.2 Bn $ for 3,000 Missiles ??

Akash in home made, Astra is also home made beside launcher and Radar seeker. Why not develop Astra as 15 Km SAM like Akash ?? What is big deal in that when Brahmos can be converted into S2A Missile into A2S missile within 2-3 year after announcement ??

We might not need such Russian/Israeli active radar seeker but if we need, It's easy to get.

 

[Payeng]

Astra uses the R-77s active seeker. It is quite well known. However it is supposed to be an interim need and will be replaced by a home made one for operational units.

There are rumours of a MICA seeker on the Astra as well. But treat it as rumours only.

The first test with the missile onboard guidance system can only confirm the piece of information, unless more information are released.

 

[Galaxy]

I think Astra is technology demonstrator otherwise why we looking to Buy so many A2A BVR Missile ??

Even we are planning to Buy Python 5, Derby and R-7# series missiles for Tejas which will be operational by 2014-15 only. So, Astra is not sure to be operational by 2014-2015 also ??

Since, DRDO is not sure of successful A2A missile anytime soon. Hence, They can't take risk for development for converting into SAM. It might not happen or too late to serve any purpose. It's not lack of confidence but may be lack of capability.

 

[Payeng]

Actually we are getting Active radar seeker from Russia for Astra and from Israel for SpyDer/Barak. Of course, all will be operational.

Let me tell in simple words. We have Akash air defence system (30 Km) and we looking for something like Akash air defence system but in range of 15Km.

We have also started inducting SpyDer with 30Km range for IAF. IAF will deploy both Akash as well as SpyDer for 30Km range. If important airbase like Gwalior and Pune will have Akash that means it's important one. Otherwise why Total order for Akash is already 5.2 Bn $ for 3,000 Missiles ??

Akash in home made, Astra is also home made beside launcher and Radar seeker. Why not develop Astra as 15 Km SAM like Akash ?? What is big deal in that when Brahmos can be converted into S2A Missile into A2S missile within 2-3 year after announcement ??

We might not need such Russian/Israeli active radar seeker but if we need, It's easy to get.

Galaxy, Spyder and Barak are not Indian products while Akash guidance system differs from that of Astra, Akash use line of sight ground based radar guidance, and technical challenge with the Astra is still the Active radar seeker, I believe when India could master in this technology we can go for a land based Astra or even a longer range SAM,note the inability to produce an Active seeker resulted in a JV with Israel for the LR-SAM project. LR-SAM is also an important requirement to make our navy Blue water capable where destroyers with such missile would be escorting Indian Aircraft carrier, so Barak-8 was an interim solution. The kolkata class are designed to operate Barak-8 and most probably escort Indian CVG, Barak-8 uses Active radar seekers.

 

[Payeng]

I think Astra is technology demonstrator otherwise why we looking to Buy so many A2A BVR Missile ??

Even we are planning to Buy Python 5, Derby and R-7 series missiles for Tejas.

Since, DRDO is not sure of successful A2A missile. Hence, They can't take risk for converting into SAM. It's not lack of confidence but may be lack of capability.

Again a new platform usually dont operate another new platform, Tejas itself is in testing phase and it is not a procedure to test a missile upon an aircraft which itself is passing through a testing phase, consider the BVRAAM on Tejas as an interim solution till we have our own missile ready.

 

[Galaxy]

Galaxy, Spyder and Barak are not Indian products while Akash guidance system differs from that of Astra, Akash use line of sight ground based radar guidance, and technical challenge with the Astra is still the Active radar seeker, I believe when India could master in this technology we can go for a land based Astra or even a longer range SAM,note the inability to produce an Active seeker resulted in a JV with Israel for the LR-SAM project. LR-SAM is also an important requirement to make our navy Blue water capable where destroyers with such missile would be escorting Indian Aircraft carrier, so Barak-8 was an interim solution. The kolkata class are designed to operate Barak-8 and most probably escort Indian CVG, Barak-8 uses Active radar seekers.

Yes, I agree completely.

But when we will not start R&D how come we will have such system in future ?? World is moving ahead in Technology and we need to move ahead if we want to be global power.

We need to spend more money on R&D otherwise we will continue to be No. 1 importer for very long time to come. DRDO lack strong intention/responsibility. I will not even blame DRDO as their budget is only 2 Bn $ for a year compare with 20 Bn $ for Chinese R&D. whole System is pathetic.

I am damn sure, if we invest more money on R&D backed with more quality facility and sense of responsibility, we will have every type of Missiles in our arsenal. We need to stand on own. Once we become bigger power, Few countries might not sell some technology to India. What if we face some sanction again ??

Self-Dependency is the only solution and actually this is time to start in right direction.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MBDA with bel were working on seeker for SAM and AAM..

 

[Payeng]

MBDA with bel were working on seeker for SAM and AAM..

Kunal will it end up in another LR-SAM/Barak-8 type of JV where India will be buying the missiles?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Only the seeker until we have our own, Like that we can missiles ( Body, Propulsion, gyros, boosters etc ) manufacture in country, Where as the seeker is IAI with DRDO/BEL input..

Seeker were we need help will be imported until we have our own matured..

Beside the seeker, everything is same as present astra..

This will help us to increase no of BVR missiles in IAF and less duds..

 

[Payeng]

Are their any such examples of any missile using a foreign made Active radar seeker?