Astra BVRAAM

[Enquirer]

if India gets into a shooting war with China the few hundred Meteor and Mica the IAF will have on hand won't be enough. It will be good to have an adaptable indigenous rail that can be mounted on Rafale when it runs out of French made ordinance.

Once again...just mounting a compatible rail doesn't solve the problem!
Thales' radars (on both Mirages and Rafales) are still incompatible with both Russian Agat seekers and desi seekers onboard Astra missiles!!

 

[Armand2REP]

Even if a rail is developed, Mirage2K & Rafale will still remain incompatible with Astra as their radars are not mated.
As far as Jaguar is concerned, it's got Mica missiles - pretty good to last till it retires.

That actually brings up a question in my mind - Are the Mica missiles being mated with ELM2052 radar now???

Anything that uses the same MIL standard can be adapted for use. Russia started doing this in the late nineties so they could export their fighters with Western missile integration as an option.

 

[Enquirer]

Anything that uses the same MIL standard can be adapted for use. Russia started doing this in the late nineties so they could export their fighters with Western missile integration as an option.

Couldn't disagree more.
French have solidly refused to integrate their avionics with anything Russian! They even turned down a multi-billion offer from India to integrate Meteor on ~300 Su-30MKIs..

 

[Enquirer]

MICA and METEOR are coming with Rafale, little need to integrate Astra on Rafale unless costs are astronomically more for French BVRAAMs.

Astra’s main utility will be on the 100s of MKIs and LCA that are/will ne in service. The R77 is a cr@ppy missile in this day and age and is plagued by issues. The Astra in full scale production will have a market for 1000+ just for these two platforms alone.

Not to mention the attractiveness of the LCA will increase the more indigenous systems are developed for it. I imagine there are plenty of nations out there that would be interested in a platform without US/European/Chinese strings attached so LCA with Astra+Kaveri+UTTAM should be the priority.

I take that you're in full agreement with what I posted.

That still leaves my side-question: What's happening to the hundreds of millions $$ worth ASRAAM missiles (not Mica as I incorrectly said previously) that were integrated on Jaguar few years back....now that ELM2052 is fitted on Jaguars? Perhaps UK is ok with integrating with Israeli radars...

 

[Armand2REP]

Couldn't disagree more.
French have solidly refused to integrate their avionics with anything Russian! They even turned down a multi-billion offer from India to integrate Meteor on ~300 Su-30MKIs..

Indian MiG-21MF-75 with MATRA R-550 Magic II

Czech MiG-23ML with MATRA R-550 Magic

Slovak MiG-29A with MATRA R-550 Magic II

 

[Enquirer]

Indian MiG-21MF-75 with MATRA R-550 Magic II

Czech MiG-23ML with MATRA R-550 Magic

Slovak MiG-29A with MATRA R-550 Magic II

Dude! Those are short-range heat-seeking missiles that don't need any targeting cues from onboard radar!
I should have guessed from your obsession with 'rails' that you think of only 'mechanical compatibility'. Modern missiles (especially long range ones like Astra) need 'software compatibility' with the onboard radars

 

[Armand2REP]

Dude! Those are short-range heat-seeking missiles that don't need any targeting cues from onboard radar!
I should have guessed from your obsession with 'rails' that you think of only 'mechanical compatibility'. Modern missiles (especially long range ones like Astra) need 'software compatibility' with the onboard radars

Dude, the Magic II still uses the aircraft's fire control system. Russia has updated their FC to current MIL standards. How do you think they incorporate all of the Western upgrades?

 

[Enquirer]

Dude, the Magic II still uses the aircraft's fire control system. Russia has updated their FC to current MIL standards. How do you think they incorporate all of the Western upgrades?

'Fire control system'
It's more like a wire running into the cockpit for release/firing!
There's no on-board computer/radar to compute a 'firing solution' that involves target parameters being passed onto the missile. It's more of pointing the plane (consequently the missile also) towards the ass of an enemy plane and then 'fire' it.....more like firing a guided shell from a cannon.

You need to move into the current era, where a missile like Astra (that you're arguing can automatically integrate seamlessly with Rafale) is completely in-sync with the on-board radar!

 

[Armand2REP]

'Fire control system'
It's more like a wire running into the cockpit for release/firing!
There's no on-board computer/radar to compute a 'firing solution' that involves target parameters being passed onto the missile. It's more of pointing the plane (consequently the missile also) towards the ass of an enemy plane and then 'fire' it.....more like firing a guided shell from a cannon.

You need to move into the current era, where a missile like Astra (that you're arguing can automatically integrate seamlessly with Rafale) is completely in-sync with the on-board radar!

You really think there is no FC system controlling the use of heat seeking missiles? If you believe that there isn't much point continuing this conversation.

 

[Enquirer]

You really think there is no FC system controlling the use of heat seeking missiles? If you believe that there isn't much point continuing this conversation.

Do read specs on the Magic R550 - it has no provision to slave its seeker to the aircraft's fire control system!! It's onboard thermal seeker locks on by itself (to a visible target) and then indicates the lock!
(I am tired of arguing about weirdly simple stuff)

 

[Skdas]

Couldn't disagree more.
French have solidly refused to integrate their avionics with anything Russian! They even turned down a multi-billion offer from India to integrate Meteor on ~300 Su-30MKIs..

That doesn't mean it can't be done...

 

[Enquirer]

That doesn't mean it can't be done...

Technically, of course yes! But it involves a lot more than just building a 'rail'!
And then of course Thales (supplier of the radar on Rafale & France) has to agree to the integration!!!

 

[BON PLAN]

Even if a rail is developed, Mirage2K & Rafale will still remain incompatible with Astra as their radars are not mated.

It's not so difficult !
The main issue is the data link between a west radar and a russian missile... To give the ciphered key of the data link is unlikely from both sides.

 

[BON PLAN]

French have solidly refused to integrate their avionics with anything Russian! They even turned down a multi-billion offer from India to integrate Meteor on ~300 Su-30MKIs..

ciphered mid course data link is the reason.
To give it offered to the other a huge opportunity to jam it !

 

[Enquirer]

It's not so difficult !
The main issue is the data link between a west radar and a russian missile... To give the ciphered key of the data link is unlikely from both sides.

The issue has never been couched as being difficult at all...it's all to do with the willingness to do it and the price quoted to do it!

 

[Skdas]

ciphered mid course data link is the reason.
To give it offered to the other a huge opportunity to jam it !

Can't help that jiggly stuff up there from tingllig...
Does that mean a resourceful technician can Jerry rig a ocilloscop to the fire controller mechanism simulate firing multiple <Insert Country Name> radar guided missile cued by the <Insert the same country Name> radar then extrapolate that data to guide an another missile with scalable performance ?

Automate that thing, collect a ship load of data and brute force that key. Quantum computing is on the horizon guys....

Just saying. ( I don't want people with pic axes on my door)

 

[BON PLAN]

Can't help that jiggly stuff up there from tingllig...
Does that mean a resourceful technician can Jerry rig a ocilloscop to the fire controller mechanism simulate firing multiple <Insert Country Name> radar guided missile cued by the <Insert the same country Name> radar then extrapolate that data to guide an another missile with scalable performance ?

Automate that thing, collect a ship load of data and brute force that key. Quantum computing is on the horizon guys....

Just saying. ( I don't want people with pic axes on my door)

No.
For exemple to give the keys of the russian crypted mid course data link to a west supplier may greatly help the west to jam this data link.... This is why it's unlikely to see a russian modern weapon on a west jet and the opposite.

 

[Enquirer]

No.
For exemple to give the keys of the russian crypted mid course data link to a west supplier may greatly help the west to jam this data link.... This is why it's unlikely to see a russian modern weapon on a west jet and the opposite.

It's not just the mid-course data-link that's an issue.
The links will be seeded with different keys anyways. Otherwise they cannot sell it to any third country.
Imagine if Qatar and Egypt were to go war with their Rafales....is it reasonable to assume that Qatar's Rafales will be able to take mid-air control of Egypt's Meteors fired at them just because both planes use similar communication mechanism??

If Meteors were to be integrated onto Su-30MKI then they don't have to reveal the encryption mechanism (which is different from the encryption key) used for mid-course updates.

Russian radars and an onboard French system can communicate over an agreed upon interface AND THEN a French system can communicate with the missiles using their custom encryption.

Also, radar-missile integration is required even if the missile is incapable of mid-course updates - so as to pass on the target coordinates to the missile while still on the pylon.

 

[BON PLAN]

The links will be seeded with different keys anyways. Otherwise they cannot sell it to any third country.
Imagine if Qatar and Egypt were to go war with their Rafales....is it reasonable to assume that Qatar's Rafales will be able to take mid-air control of Egypt's Meteors fired at them just because both planes use similar communication mechanism??

NO.
Every customer received its own keys, so as to avoid a plane X to interfer with the missile fired by a plane Y.
The issue is for a potential foe to know the frequencies, the code ans so one used by your own data link.

A Meteor on MKI, if ever, need or to use a new west antenna on the plane to create the link with the missile, a totally black box system in with the plane weapon system only gave the location, speed and direction of the target and the black box system do its job all alone.
But don't imagine MBDA to give the russian the frequencies, the data encryption and so one used on Meteor : NEVER.

It's why i'm pretty sure you will never see a Meteor on MKI. And the russian have some potential solution for the near futur...

 

[BON PLAN]

AND THEN a French system can communicate with the missiles using their custom encryption.

YES. A new system, called "black box" in my precedent mail. Black box because it can't release the encryption system used by.