Astra BVRAAM

[Pulkit]

@Pulkit, if a hostile target escapes the direct hit, it can't escape high proximity blast radius.

This was not my query.
Please read beyond the opening statement ....

 

[Pulkit]

They usually will do "Near-Hit" test in order to be able to re-use the rather expensive target drone which would otherwise be lost.

Bansee is designed to conduct such tests it has no other purpose .It is cheap when it comes to pricing but yes they might be Saving some money..... but the missile they are testing costs way more than bansee.... So i donot think they should be doing this.............

The missile will get a full Direct Hit test eventually before it is accepted into service. However as it is equipped with a proximity warhead rather than a kinetic one, the missile can achieve lethality with a Near Hit via blast fragmentation

Hope that answers your question

Here it was bansee which has no defense mechanism and its not maneuverable enough.

Direct hit percentage of any AAM is about 10% only. Its the proximity fuse which does most of the killing. Now if IAF has said that based on missed distance calculation its successful, it means the potency of the missile is no where less and it could achieve kill through proximity blast.

Please share the reference/Source where IAF has said what you have quoted above.

Moreover tests are conducted in real time war scenario. So these tests could be termed as successful. Moreover with the data acquired, we could be able to refine the seeker more and more.

I repeat here in this case target was bansee which has no defense mechanism and its not maneuverable enough.

 

[Chinmoy]

Bansee is designed to conduct such tests it has no other purpose .It is cheap when it comes to pricing but yes they might be Saving some money..... but the missile they are testing costs way more than bansee.... So i donot think they should be doing this.............


Here it was bansee which has no defense mechanism and its not maneuverable enough.


Please share the reference/Source where IAF has said what you have quoted above.

I repeat here in this case target was bansee which has no defense mechanism and its not maneuverable enough.

Defence sources said two rounds of the missile from Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft were targeting pilot-less target aircraft (PTA) Banshee. The mission was termed ‘successful’ considering the missed-distance calculation, though the missile failed to achieve a direct hit.

’The missiles were fired both at high and medium altitude. They passed very close to the target and it can be termed near-hit. The mission was conducted in a war-like scenario and the missile was fired on actual targets. Data collected during the tests are being examined,’’ the sources said.

These are the statements from defence sources aka IAF

DRDO officials, however, claimed that the mission was excellent. The tests were conducted to demonstrate the aerodynamic characteristics of the missile. It has demonstrated the repeatability, robustness and endurance capability of Astra weapon system, said a senior official.

This is the statement from DRDO.

All the tests are done with drones like these. Its the targeting and flight mechanism of the missiles which are tested. If it has flown within the target area, no matter how fast or slow the target is moving, it shows that the targeting system and seekers are working fine.

 

[Pulkit]

These are the statements from defence sources aka IAF

No thats not an official statement.
Wait for the official statement to be out.....

This is the statement from DRDO.

All the tests are done with drones like these. Its the targeting and flight mechanism of the missiles which are tested. If it has flown within the target area, no matter how fast or slow the target is moving, it shows that the targeting system and seekers are working fine.

But accuracy is another thing .... It should hits the target with precision as here it was war like scenario but not real war.

They say its kill % is very high that we will have to see and how IAF responds to it.

 

[Chinmoy]

No thats not an official statement.
Wait for the official statement to be out.....

Now this is quoted by an official. Now if this is not an official quote, then I am not sure what a official quote means. If you think ACM would give any statement, then I'm not sure what he would say.
Anyway at most IAF would simply go by this version or would come out with the plan of induction or few more tests at max.

But accuracy is another thing .... It should hits the target with precision as here it was war like scenario but not real war.

They say its kill % is very high that we will have to see and how IAF responds to it.

As I've already said, only 10% of any AAM does score a direct hit at any given time. For the same reason variety of simulated target and real target tests are done. Whether it would achieve a direct hit or not or would be able to beat any defence could only be verified when it is fired at a real fighter.

Moreoevr its a user trial. Based on the output of these tests, user would either recommend some changes or would directly go for its induction in the current form.

 

[Prashant12]

Another Astra test-fired over Bay of Bengal

BHUBANESWAR: One more round of air-to-air beyond visual range (BVR) missile Astra was test fired from the fighter aircraft Sukhoi-30 MKI on Tuesday. The missile was fired against a simulated live target - an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) over the Bay of Bengal.

Defence sources said the aircraft that took off from Kalaikunda air force base in West Bengal launched the sleek missile at an altitude of 4,000 metres towards Banshee, a British drone.

This was third test of the missile by the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the last two days. “Like previous two trials, the missile though was coordinated for a direct hit, achieved near-hit. The trial was conducted to demonstrate the aerodynamic characteristics of the missile at a low altitude,” the sources informed.

The missile, which uses a smokeless propulsion system, is more advanced than the BVR missiles of its class used by the US, France and Russia. It has the capability to kill fast moving highly manoeuvring aerial targets.

The captive trials will establish the compatibility of the missile’s electronics with the Sukhoi-30 MKI avionics. In terms of sheer technology, Astra is more complex than even the nuclear-capable Agni series of strategic ballistic missiles.

The dual-mode guidance consisting of an upgraded mid-course internal and active radar terminal homing systems allows Astra missile to locate and track targets at different altitudes. From a high altitude of 24 km to sea level, the missile can engage targets at different angles. The missile is expected to undergo trials for three more days.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...ra-test-fired-over-bay-of-bengal-1548780.html

 

[airtel]

The missile, which uses a smokeless propulsion system, is more advanced than the BVR missiles of its class used by the US, France and Russia.

ye Kuch Jyada Ho Gaya .........

 

[OnePunchMan]

ye Kuch Jyada Ho Gaya .........

well it does have better propulsion than any other AAM except maybe meteor but i havent seen its testing video yet the smoke trail is virtually non existent its totally clean burn so clean it looks almost ionic or electric propulsion and it will be virtually impossible to capture in IR only need to bring the seeker upto speed and hopefully a RAMjet version in future it will be one of the most potent BVR in the skies.

 

[Pandora]

@Superdefender , But the test was for direct hit...seems DRDO manipulate the result.

In real world scenario, almost all aircrafts shot down including by SAM is due proximity explosion. Directly hit is just copybook scenario where target is stationery.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

i havent seen its testing video yet the smoke trail is virtually non existent its totally clean burn so clean it looks almost ionic or electric propulsion and it will be virtually impossible to capture in IR.

Sir, how being smoke less trail will make it will be virtually impossible to capture in IR. Aren't IR and smoke to different things!!!
The question remains will IR sensor be able to detect burn in missile thruster where most IR is being emitted.

 

[OnePunchMan]

Sir, how being smoke less trail will make it will be virtually impossible to capture in IR. Aren't IR and smoke to different things!!!
The question remains will IR sensor be able to detect burn in missile thruster where most IR is being emitted.

smoke shows as a hot plume of heat on FLIR and it retains its signature for long time before dissipating by being smokeless there is no smoke trail which is neither visual thermally nor visual visually also astra's propulsion fluid is very different the exhaust it given out is very cool for lack of a better word cool in the sense it will be very hard to track from long ranges even on the best FLIRs and yet despite not releasing excessive IR signature it delivers the same punch / thrust for missile also the color of exhaust is very hard to get in a sky it literally burns blue which is damn near impossible to discern at the velocities that missile move trust me its a very very good missile atleast propulsion wise just need to put some decent seekers in it. and maybe make a ramjet in future.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The real advantage of having a BVRAAM with smokeless propellantent is; the pilot of the target aircraft won't be able to see it clear enough from long distences in case it's warning sensors have not alerted him/her. Also during evasive manoeuvring, it's important for the pilot of a target aircraft to maintain visual contact with the incoming missile; which if having a smokeless propellant and appropriately painted will become very hard for pilot to see it and hence evade it.

Near hit in a war-like scenario means getting close enough to engage a manoeuvring target (carrying out evasive manoeuvres, which at almost all of times means high G turns and rapid climb or descent) with warhead triggered by proximity fuse which may result in adequate disability but not total distruction of the target. A direct hit means aircraft is shot and destroyed on the spot.

If near hit stays repeated in following tests also, then DRDO will have to tweak the airframe and software for achieving a better or increased instantaneous rate of turn along with higher G load sustenance.

I think Astra MK-1 --which is in MICA class-- should be developed as an IR missile also with TVC giving it end-game manoeuvrability in a WVRAAM role.

 

[tejas warrior]

Source: BRF

Expert : tsarkar

tsarkar has explained in great detail of AAM working and why near miss is actually complete success.

Below content is from BRF:

Regarding "near miss", a lot of research has gone into the best way to down an aircraft.

It was discovered that a fragmentation warhead just peppers the aircraft with holes, but unless it hits pilot or vitals like hydraulics or engine (buried inside the body), it will not bring the plane down.

So a new type of warhead was invented - called expanding rod or continuous rod - that had ductile metal rods joined at alternate ends to the adjacent rods covering the warhead. The rods can with stand high temperature and pressure.

When the warhead exploded, the ductile metal rods expand like shown here

The final effect of continuous rod is this

The high speed metal ring slices through aircraft structure, hydraulics, etc like a Hollywood katana and brings down the aircraft.

So, coming to the original point, AAMs & SAMs need to fly in proximity to the target aircraft with reasonable spacing to enable the continuous road to fully deploy to properly slice the target aircraft.

The proximity fuse is in the side of the missile.

Note the rectangular windows on the side here. That is where the laser or radio frequency fuse emits & receives.

Given the low warhead weight of AAMs (22.5 kg for R-77, 22.7 kg for AMRAAM), a direct hit wont bring down a Su-30 or F-15. The purpose of the warhead is only to create and deploy the continuous rod.

Its actually a malfunction if a continuous rod equipped AAM scores a direct hit.

Hence AAMs are deliberately designed to "near miss" using proximity fuses rather than hit to kill.

 

[BON PLAN]

The missile, which uses a smokeless propulsion system, is more advanced than the BVR missiles of its class used by the US, France and Russia. It has the capability to kill fast moving highly manoeuvring aerial targets.

You really think India is able, with very few experience, to produce better propulsion system than USA for exemple ? Sure not.

A good product is a efficient one AND A RELIABLE ONE. Astra doesn't seem to be so reliable; So not so efficient.

 

[BON PLAN]

well it does have better propulsion than any other AAM except maybe meteor

Maybe Meteor ?

ASTRA is a 156 kg Missile, with a 80km range.

METEOR is a 160 km with a range of more than 100km. The exact range is not known (it's confidential), but some leaks here in Europe said the range, with higk pk, is nearly 150km.

You know why ? because Meteor doesn't have to carry it's oxidizer. It take it in the air thanks to stato engine. So where the other missile, incuding Astra, carry fuel AND oxidizer, Meteor embark a higher load of fuel. And the higher drag of the stato is more than compensated by that.

 

[BON PLAN]

Source: BRF

Expert : tsarkar

tsarkar has explained in great detail of AAM working and why near miss is actually complete success.

Below content is from BRF:

Regarding "near miss", a lot of research has gone into the best way to down an aircraft.

It was discovered that a fragmentation warhead just peppers the aircraft with holes, but unless it hits pilot or vitals like hydraulics or engine (buried inside the body), it will not bring the plane down.

So a new type of warhead was invented - called expanding rod or continuous rod - that had ductile metal rods joined at alternate ends to the adjacent rods covering the warhead. The rods can with stand high temperature and pressure.

When the warhead exploded, the ductile metal rods expand like shown here

The final effect of continuous rod is this

The high speed metal ring slices through aircraft structure, hydraulics, etc like a Hollywood katana and brings down the aircraft.

So, coming to the original point, AAMs & SAMs need to fly in proximity to the target aircraft with reasonable spacing to enable the continuous road to fully deploy to properly slice the target aircraft.

The proximity fuse is in the side of the missile.

Note the rectangular windows on the side here. That is where the laser or radio frequency fuse emits & receives.

Given the low warhead weight of AAMs (22.5 kg for R-77, 22.7 kg for AMRAAM), a direct hit wont bring down a Su-30 or F-15. The purpose of the warhead is only to create and deploy the continuous rod.

Its actually a malfunction if a continuous rod equipped AAM scores a direct hit.

Hence AAMs are deliberately designed to "near miss" using proximity fuses rather than hit to kill.

Continuous ring : it's Sci Fi .

 

[Chinmoy]

You really think India is able, with very few experience, to produce better propulsion system than USA for exemple ? Sure not.

A good product is a efficient one AND A RELIABLE ONE. Astra doesn't seem to be so reliable; So not so efficient.

I wonder then, what makes METEOR so reliable? Which aircraft it did brought down? I think by going through that logic, only US and Russian AAM are reliable one left. Good thinking Monsieur....

 

[tejas warrior]

Maybe Meteor ?

ASTRA is a 156 kg Missile, with a 80km range.

METEOR is a 160 km with a range of more than 100km. The exact range is not known (it's confidential), but some leaks here in Europe said the range, with higk pk, is nearly 150km.

Missile range is always depend on height & other factors. Indian test connection are not for optimal range of any missile.. but this is actually where they have been designed to work in.

Simply quoting higher range on boucher/confidential doesn't make it better.

Do you know exact range of Brahmos for example ? It's confidential. 300 km is not true.

Do you know exact range of Agni3/5 missiles ? DRDO publish them much lower.. some Chinese media report them 40-50℅ Higher.

And, well ASTRA is our first AAM, watch out for their next version.

 

[airtel]

Maybe Meteor ?

ASTRA is a 156 kg Missile, with a 80km range.

METEOR is a 160 km with a range of more than 100km. The exact range is not known (it's confidential), but some leaks here in Europe said the range, with higk pk, is nearly 150km.

You know why ? because Meteor doesn't have to carry it's oxidizer. It take it in the air thanks to stato engine. So where the other missile, incuding Astra, carry fuel AND oxidizer, Meteor embark a higher load of fuel. And the higher drag of the stato is more than compensated by that.

meteor is the best missile in the world but what is the cost of Astra & meteor ?? Astra is 15 to 20 times cheaper than Meteor ..............

in Most of the battle scenario 80Km Range would be Good Enough .


Astra is our First BVR missile , range of Next Missiles will be Higher ....................

India has scram-jet & Ramjet Engine technologies .

 

[airtel]

A good product is a efficient one AND A RELIABLE ONE. Astra doesn't seem to be so reliable; So not so efficient.

Astra is still in development & testing Phase ...............................Final Product will be reliable .