Army camp in Uri under attack, several personnel killed

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Really ? first of all the terrorist did't approach the army camp in any car that is claimed in the wahtsapp secondly a respected army army officer won't spread rumors through whats app or social sites. Army has to go by rules set by chain of command.
 

Ray

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Ajai Shukla, must have been a failed Army officer. Hence, he loves opening up controversies.

While it is correct that in a unsettled area one has to act fast lest it becomes a greater problem, the moot issue is that on hindsight it can be an error in judgement to have acted.

But then the quandary that one should realise is should one act or let it pass. If it passes then the blame remains as yours. It is a Catch 22 situation. Be damned either way.

Today, we are, without blaming as yet, lamenting the loss of the Army and JAK Police lives and attributing rationale that Pakistan is upping the ante because democracy has triumphed. That Nation thus find a rationale to gloat and wax eloquence and sorrow at the same time.

But what if there was no elections and no impending visit of the PM?

The Nation would have gone hammer and tongs at the failure of the SF and the Int Agencies.

Therefore, what is the answer to give the troopers on the ground how to react?

If one has to rein in the troops lest it is politically not inexpedient, then it must be crystal clear in the ROE.

Hooda has acted like a freak to have come out they way he did, even before an enquiry. He has acted politically and that is a sad commentary on the poor generalship that has afflicted the Army.

The Army has been defanged by the politics that has afflicted the country ever since Mulayam Singh Yadav and his caste and stupid actions.

It is also interesting that men in uniform are using WhatsApp.

Even the age old discipline because of politicisation and lack of regimental/ unit cohesiveness seems to have lost its meaning.

Can't blame anyone if folks like Hooda can rise to such high ranks who without enquiry passes a political statement.

The Army is in a Mess.

If the Army Cde and the Corps Cdr had good reasons to feel it was an error, they should have stated that it could be an error, and that an enquiry was on.

If they wanted to be PC, they could have coopted non Army chaps in that enquiry, though I would not.

But I would still insist the truth and the guilty punished.

It has been done before, and unfortunately, that did not make the news since that would not be sensational enough.
 
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Hari Sud

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

The above precisely is the reason, why otherwise alert army got caught in the ambush.

Kashmiri leaders and instigated by terrorists are too quick to blame army for everything. They never ever think that terrorists across the border are gleeful every time they start shouting slogans. That is an advantage for them.

Accidental firing on two unruly boys who were approaching an army camp with signs of caution posted, Cannot be pinned on the army. The leaders demanded action. This resulted in base security completely downed their guns even if the danger approached.

Shame on these Kashmiri leaders, unless they are separatists that eight army men paid with their lives, because they preferred army with guns but without firing pins or ammunition or guns holstered. Do they not know the danger of this policy?

It did not take long to find out.

I am glad that Pakistani terrorists operation was only partially successful. They were dead within a short while. With their death, way too many Pakistani secrets were available on their person. That becomes a publicity coup for India.
 

Hari Sud

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Ajai Shukla on his blog once argued with me about his status in the army before he retired.

He overstates his last active status in the army. Likes of him are usually encouraged to retire, lest they find their way into command structure some how.
 

ladder

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

A single junior officer writes something on Whatsapp, god knows where and which branch that fellow works. But, most importantly a journalist who incidentally was a mid level Army officer projects it as the voice of wide spread similar discontent. Who is at fault?

It's has always been the case among private circles in Army. It's always joked about that senior officers have lost their balls. Earlier due to lacking of social media, these things always remained within private circles. Now with whatsapp, it's circulating more vigorously. Even then it's the person who spread it outside the group is to blame.

This article serves no purpose.


==============

Wasn't it the social media citing insider sources quoted that the troopers were on a hunger strike after the beheading incident?
 
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Ray

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Ajai Shukla on his blog once argued with me about his status in the army before he retired.

He overstates his last active status in the army. Likes of him are usually encouraged to retire, lest they find their way into command structure some how.
What was his status and why did he quit?
 

DingDong

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

My deja vu moment. The army is functioning under political and media pressure even at the verge of compromising the well-laid SOPs. Nowhere else in the world government bends it's rules to accommodate media and enemy perceptions.
 

hit&run

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Looks like a hoax message spread by vested interests.

The kind of ammunition, preparedness and motivation (skiing for many hours to cross the border) has been revealed tells the causalities were to happen.
 

hit&run

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Really ? first of all the terrorist did't approach the army camp in any car that is claimed in the wahtsapp secondly a respected army army officer won't spread rumors through whats app or social sites. Army has to go by rules set by chain of command.
Good observation. The terrorists came by foot and breached the camp at dawn. One of the solider who was boiling water saw them but it was too late for him as they hurled a Grenade blasting and igniting fire of stored Kerosene.

There are bunch of congi foot soldiers on parole, who have been already making this attack a political slug fest. The same assertion was made by a Modi hater, on a different forum with same kind of alleged claims. I see a nexus working and excuses being invented. The guy was called out by me but even after 24 hours no reply was given.

Not to mention during previous incident the boys were able to breech three check posts. What if they were to be armed terrorists, the causalities would have been certain at that time as well.
 

ezsasa

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

To me it looks like some social tangos spreading distrust among the ranks.
 

Blackwater

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social media


Pre-cooked meals with Urdu markings recovered from six dead terrorists who attacked an army post in Uri

A day after eight army soldiers, including an officer, died in a militant strike on a military camp near Uri, in Jammu & Kashmir, anger is bubbling amongst junior officers who say over-cautious commanders have tied their hands.

In a WhatsApp message that is racing through army networks, the Uri debacle has been blamed on tight operational restrictions allegedly imposed after two Kashmiri boys were mistakenly shot dead on November 3 by soldiers manning a check point near Chattergam village, in Anantnag district of south Kashmir.

Then, in a swift attempt to quell public outrage, the army had ordered an inquiry that found nine soldiers of 53 Rashtriya Rifles culpable. Northern army commander, Lieutenant General DS Hooda, publicly admitted the army had made a mistake.

Days later, on November 13, an army court martial sentenced five soldiers, including two officers, to life imprisonment for killing three innocent Kashmiris in a fake encounter in the Macchil sector of north Kashmir in 2010.

In the bitter WhatsApp message, an unidentified officer has directly held his top commanders responsible for the Uri debacle.

"As per reports, soldiers on the sentry duty on the army camp [at Uri], did not fire upon the approaching terrorist vehicle due to caution imposed on them after the Anantnag incident (sic)", says the WhatsApp message.

The message goes on: "When [the] Anantnag incident took place last month, corps commander of 15 corps and Army Commander of Northern Command had both called it a mistake"¦ Should not the Army Cdr (commander) and Corps cdr (commander) consider resigning for this goof up (sic)."

"Now, what do they have to say? They had betrayed their own soldiers, who became cautious and the result is for everyone to see."

Highlighting a worrying faultline, the message demands (capitals in original): "GENERALS SHOULD STOP PLAYING TO [THE] GALLERY AND MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND ALLOW SOLDIERS TO DO THEIR JOB."

Such bitterness is growing in combat unit and sub-unit commanders, who are caught between senior officers' demands to "deliver results", i.e. to kill militants; while at the same time uphold the human rights of locals, most of whom sympathise with militants, if not actively support them.

The army is scrambling to counter this unprecedented "social media" crisis. While nobody is speaking on the record, Business Standard learns the army is responding on social media, putting out a detailed account of the Uri incident. The aim is to prove that the militants benefited from laxity rather than from imposed restraints.

Says Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain, a highly regarded former corps commander in Srinagar: "It is unfair to blame top commanders for demanding restraint. Every officers knows exactly what restraint implies; and it does not restrict legitimate use of force against militants."

Neither do accounts of the Uri strike support the view that soldiers' were operationally restrained. The attack began at 3 a.m., a time when civilian movement is totally banned and every stranger is considered suspicious.

Senior commanders in Kashmir have stoutly resisted pleas to lift the Disturbed Areas notification from large parts of J&K, which means the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1990 (AFSPA) would no longer apply in those areas. Even so, the army hierarchy is increasingly intolerant of human rights violations.

The WhatsApp message bitterly states: "We ought to accept such mistakes when we deploy the army for restoration of the situation. Everyone must understand the real purpose of AFSPA. It is meant to cover unintentional mistakes made by soldiers in the course of the performance of their duty."

The WhatsApp message strongly reflects the soldiers' viewpoint that they are doing a thankless job for seniors, leaders and a public that neither understands nor sympathises with the army.

The officer writes: "Why does not this nation and its leaders understand the nuances of this 'Designer war' heaped upon India by Pakistan since 1989? Unfortunately, even most military minds, both serving and retired, have failed to understand the reality of this war. It has nothing to do with 'Law and Order'; it is war, Sir! Most important, it is for Generals to understand and grasp its characteristics and stop reacting to civilian hue and cry (sic)."

Broadsword
As per reports, soldiers on the sentry duty on the army camp , did not fire upon the approaching terrorist vehicle due to caution imposed on them after the Anantnag incident (sic)", says the WhatsApp message.


That says it all
 

sgarg

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

I think we all need to be sensitive to the situation. A public discussion of the incident does not serve much purpose as it is army and government who have to work out the way to respond to this kind of situation.

It is a very difficult situation no doubt. The first step is to take care of families of fallen soldiers. The next is to work on steps to minimize repeat of such incidents.
 

DingDong

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

I think we all need to be sensitive to the situation. A public discussion of the incident does not serve much purpose as it is army and government who have to work out the way to respond to this kind of situation.

It is a very difficult situation no doubt. The first step is to take care of families of fallen soldiers. The next is to work on steps to minimize repeat of such incidents.
We cannot close our eyes on the plight of our soldiers, we need to take steps to save lives of our soldiers. If "their" death saves lives of our men then so be it, we must be ready to be on side of the people who put their lives on line to defend our country. Court Martial of Army officers for "mistaken killing" works in favour of the enemies. We cannot win hearts and minds which are full of Jihadi poison, we must eliminate them with extreme prejudice where and when we find them. The only way to ensure peace is to convince them that they cannot win this war, Ghazwa-e-Hind is a myth and they will all end up 6 feet under chasing their dreams.

If we cannot win in Kashmir where our forces are in dominant position, how can we expect to venture into enemy territory and score a victory there?
 

hit&run

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

As per reports, soldiers on the sentry duty on the army camp , did not fire upon the approaching terrorist vehicle due to caution imposed on them after the Anantnag incident (sic)", says the WhatsApp message.


That says it all
Army sources said several of the eight soldiers and three police officers killed on Friday died within minutes of the strike, which began after the attackers cut a loosely-guarded barbed wire fence protecting an artillery base, manned by soldiers of 24 Punjab Regiment and 31 Field Regiment. - See more at: Terrorists hiked for 24 hours, crossed dense forests before staging assault | The Indian Express
This is how it started.
The attack, sources said, was first spotted by a soldier heating water near the fence. Even before others could respond to his shouts, the terrorists threw a grenade at a barracks — setting the clothes and kerosene alight, and burning four soldiers to death. Three more soldiers were killed in the melee that followed. Three police officers from Uri town, who responded immediately on hearing the shots, were killed when they drove into three terrorists who were retreating from the fire towards a bunker. - See more at: Terrorists hiked for 24 hours, crossed dense forests before staging assault | The Indian Express
 

sgarg

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

We cannot close our eyes on the plight of our soldiers, we need to take steps to save lives of our soldiers. If "their" death saves lives of our men then so be it, we must be ready to be on side of the people who put their lives on line to defend our country. Court Martial of Army officers for "mistaken killing" works in favour of the enemies. We cannot win hearts and minds which are full of Jihadi poison, we must eliminate them with extreme prejudice where and when we find them. The only way to ensure peace is to convince them that they cannot win this war, Ghazwa-e-Hind is a myth and they will all end up 6 feet under chasing their dreams.

If we cannot win in Kashmir where our forces are in dominant position, how can we expect to venture into enemy territory and score a victory there?
It looks like a special forces op as I said earlier. It is a sabotage operation in terrorist garb. I doubt this can be responded by tightening civilian measures.

The cross border attacks have to be dealt in a different way.
 

Hari Sud

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

What was his status and why did he quit?
Lt. Col; although he says that he was a full colonel. But a TV Channel where he was appearing flashed his name and his rank as Lt. Col. only a year or two back in Delhi.

Hence either the TV channel was wrong, which is unlikely because the person appearing on TV, in advance gives his own bio-data to be flashed during his appearance or somebody made a mistake. But he entered into a spat with me. I accepted his view and dumped the matter. When I approached the TV channel for this oversight, they refused to confirm or deny either their mistake or oversight. They insisted that they have done nothing wrong.
 

Tshering22

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The Army has stated that these filth who attacked our state were trained by hardcore special units of our friendly neighbour's military personnel.

These terrorists were trained by special units no doubt.

Five of my brothers in security forces gave their supreme sacrifice. The terrorists will pay for this dearly.
 

Ray

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Re: Young army officers blame commanders for Uri debacle on social med

Lt. Col; although he says that he was a full colonel. But a TV Channel where he was appearing flashed his name and his rank as Lt. Col. only a year or two back in Delhi.

Hence either the TV channel was wrong, which is unlikely because the person appearing on TV, in advance gives his own bio-data to be flashed during his appearance or somebody made a mistake. But he entered into a spat with me. I accepted his view and dumped the matter. When I approached the TV channel for this oversight, they refused to confirm or deny either their mistake or oversight. They insisted that they have done nothing wrong.
A Lt Col when addressed is addressed as Col as would a Maj Gen be addressed as Gen.

I would tend to believe he was a Lt Col.

A full Col commands a unit and a successful command means the next step - Brigadier.

The Armoured Corps is an 'old school tie' club and they look after their own.

So, if a Lt Col or a Col does not make the next rank, then that person is a real loser.
 

Iamanidiot

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I think we can expect troop movements once the elections are over or after the Barack Obama visit
 

Hari Sud

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I think we can expect troop movements once the elections are over or after the Barack Obama visit
Bless you.

That is the only way to teach Pakistan a lesson. Otherwise they are behaving like a spoiled cat.
 

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