Army camp in Uri under attack, several personnel killed

[Kunal Biswas]

Hopefully this may force our Army to upgrade Infrastructure, By placing just guards without walls will only add to casualty in unconventional warfare ..

 

[maomao]

Oversensitivity and sham secularism will force armed forces in Kashmir to become over cautious and sensitive - which will make easy entry and exit for jihadis of Kashmir possible!

Anyone who rams into army picket or a convoy in Kashmir deserves in to get shot irrespective of the fact he is guilty or not! We cannot allow treacherous secular/commie forces dictate terms to our armed forces on how to React to hostile situations! If Kashmiri kids are rowdy then they deserve punishment!

We cannot let our Jawans die because some shameless secular human rights activist feels that army should not fire upon a fast approaching vehicle which rams into the army because it may have some secular civilians!


Kashimir is a special case - with hostile local population, hence shoot to kill in a danger situation!

Army is not there to get shot.....don't give a fcuk about secularism anymore.....Punjab is an ideal case of how to end terrorism which was never applied in Kashmir, due to Nehru's love of Sheikh and his family (and we all know the illegitimate reason) continued till date by con-gress , now is the time for new Kashmir Policy!!

 

[Ky Loung]

wrong thread.

 

[Blood+]

Actually there can be no fixed template for perimeter defence.

It depends on the acreage, the location, the threat the resources and so on.

Non Infantry units are in the support and service support role and hence are not geared in the same way it is for the Infantry.

That is why Gen Bipin Joshi raised the RR with IA resoures since the Govt was not accepting the proposal where he made sure that non Infantry personnel too were posted to RR so that they learnt how to defend themselves and realise the extent of threat that the Army as a whole encounters.

Having seen such RR units that has a mixed composition, I feel that the IA is much better off than ever before in defending themselves.

That is why when the terrorists attack non Infantry units, the damage is much much less than what it would have been if they, or some of them, were not employed in RR units.

The only thing that comes to mind is to use UAV with night vision surveillance capabilities to look 'deep' and 'in depth' for suspicious movement towards the 'camp' locations.

Thanks for this info Ray sir.But one thing I would like to ask - won't it be better if the sentries are posted either in a watch tower or a concrete pillbox with a GPMG instead of posting them in the open??Don't you think that by making them stand guard in the open,their lives along with the safety of the whole base is being potentially jeopardized??I mean it can't be much expensive to build them a few defensive structures for the safety of the sentries and in essence,of the whole camp??

 

[ezsasa]

Looks like some of our forum members are under the assumption that there is such a thing as fool proof security, in my opinion there is no such thing. No matter what you do they will always find a way, if not here then some where else. Their play depends on finding the weak spots and find publicity. As long as we are learning the lessons and acting on them, it is a takeaway from situation.

Of course we are doomed when no body acts on lessons learnt.

 

[Ray]

Thanks for this info Ray sir.But one thing I would like to ask - won't it be better if the sentries are posted either in a watch tower or a concrete pillbox with a GPMG instead of posting them in the open??Don't you think that by making them stand guard in the open,their lives along with the safety of the whole base is being potentially jeopardized??I mean it can't be much expensive to build them a few defensive structures for the safety of the sentries and in essence,of the whole camp??

It depends on the area.

There are bunkers/ fortified trenches, watch towers etc.

It all depends on being alert.

And maybe there are orders that one should open fire only when fired upon.

This could haev been the instructions, given the incident where two boys were killed and Hooda stated that it was a mistake of the Army.

 

[Blood+]

It depends on the area.

There are bunkers/ fortified trenches, watch towers etc.

It all depends on being alert.

And maybe there are orders that one should open fire only when fired upon.

This could haev been the instructions, given the incident where two boys were killed and Hooda stated that it was a mistake of the Army.

But the senior officials are claiming that no such order was given!!Besides,in this case at least,it seemed that the sentries were simply mowed down by the large volume of fire before they could react.One can not remain in an heightened alerted condition for an indefinite point of time,can they??I mean that's the reason the point men/scouts are rotated with other soldiers after a certain amount of time!!A well fortified sentry post,even if constructed of sandbags with an em-placed automatic,could have saved the sentries from the initial burst and would have given them a fighting chance.And if there was indeed such an order of not to shoot first,then it becomes ever more imperative to build well fortified sentry posts with em-placed automatics in all the army camps,at least the precious lives of the jawans can be saved that way.

 

[Ray]

But the senior officials are claiming that no such order was given!!Besides,in this case at least,it seemed that the sentries were simply mowed down by the large volume of fire before they could react.One can not remain in an heightened alerted condition for an indefinite point of time,can they??I mean that's the reason the point men/scouts are rotated with other soldiers after a certain amount of time!!A well fortified sentry post,even if constructed of sandbags with an em-placed automatic,could have saved the sentries from the initial burst and would have given them a fighting chance.And if there was indeed such an order of not to shoot first,then it becomes ever more imperative to build well fortified sentry posts with em-placed automatics in all the army camps,at least the precious lives of the jawans can be saved that way.

Let us say that that there was such an understanding wafted in the air to me.

I sure hope that what wafted through the air to me is wrong.

These days one does not know what is the reality since the rumour mill are driven by agendas to praise or discredit the new Govt.

But Modi's claim that it was he who impressed upon the Army to act against the soldiers does give credence to the info that wafted through the air.

I think the action if ordered by Modi, is premature since only an enquiry can establish the fault if any and not mere gut feeling or desire to endorse a good feeling to J&K.

That sure would lead to low morale and incidents like this happening more often.

And if it happens too often, then there will be great resentment in the rank and file and cause greater issues that what we have experienced so far.

I would think it would be better that the AFSPA is removed and Omar Abdullah's Police be given the responsibility to keep J&K terrorist free. After all, it was the State Govt that wanted to Army to do the task.

 

[Blood+]

Let us say that that there was such an understanding wafted in the air to me.

I sure hope that what wafted through the air to me is wrong.

These days one does not know what is the reality since the rumour mill are driven by agendas to praise or discredit the new Govt.

But Modi's claim that it was he who impressed upon the Army to act against the soldiers does give credence to the info that wafted through the air.

I think the action if ordered by Modi, is premature since only an enquiry can establish the fault if any and not mere gut feeling or desire to endorse a good feeling to J&K.

That sure would lead to low morale and incidents like this happening. And if it happens too often, then there will be great resentment in the rank and file and cause greater issues that what we have experienced so far.

I would think it would be better that the AFSPA is removed and Omar Abdullah's Police be given the responsibility to keep J&K terrorist free. After all, it was the State Govt that wanted to Army to do the task.

Well this proves beyond any doubt that all the politicians are the same,just the opposite sides of the same coin.Ideally the Army shouldn't even be there in Kashmir for policing duty,if the state government machinery was competent enough.But at this point,if the duty is left to the J&K police,then I'm quite sure that it won't be far from the beginning of the 90's version 2.0 .We all have already seen the level of 'competence' of state and central police forces against the Naxalites quite a many times by now,haven't we??

 

[Illusive]

The Army has stated that these filth who attacked our state were trained by hardcore special units of our friendly neighbour's military personnel.

These terrorists were trained by special units no doubt.

Five of my brothers in security forces gave their supreme sacrifice. The terrorists will pay for this dearly.

Expect more such training because, their problem in the tribal regions have been diminished, courtesy of PAF bombing their own country, so now ISI can focus more resources towards their good terrorists.

Countrywide alert for possible terror strikes by SIMI men

 

[ghost]

You cannot make anything 100% infiltration proof ,but then you can always make it as much difficult as possible to infiltrate.Securing an army base is very important ,You cannot compare an attack on army base with an attack anywhere else,as army base represent the heart of our security.The hunter should never become the hunted that too at his very own home.

Our army bases are very lack luster in security ; they are sitting duck,it's about time question need to be asked, responsibility to be fixed.

Let me provide a security overview which I think can be deployed for far greater protection of the base.



Outermost will be a ditch preventing suicide bomber vehicles from approaching the first layer wall.

1-Then first layer will be covered with something like HESCO bastion ,It is made of a collapsible wire mesh container and heavy duty fabric liner, and used as a temporary to semi-permanent levee or blast wall against explosions or small-arms.Filled with sand, 60 centimetres of barrier thickness will stop rifle bullets, shell fragments and other shrapnel. Approximately 1.2 metres of thickness provides protection against most car bombs. It takes 1.5 metres of thickness to prevent penetration by a rocket-propelled grenade round. In addition, HESCO bastions are even more effective than sandbags against water.The top of these wall will be covered with razor barbed wire to make it difficult to scale these walls.

2 -The second layer will consisit of : layer of 2 yards of land from outer-most layer ,covered with anti personal mine.

3 - Third layer will be of coiled barbed wire wall 8 to 10 feet high ,with high voltage current running through it.

4 -Fourth will be layer of few yards of land with buried motion detectors under ground.

5- Fifth layer will be of simple wire fencing ,this will allow visibilty upto the first layer while keeping the personael inside camp out of the harm's way of first three layer and from triggering alarm.

6-There will be a machine gun pill box on all sides ,placed in such a location that it's overlooking all layers on its side,for this they should be made on elvated ground .

7-Survellance cameras mounted on poles overlooking all sides of the security permiter.

8 One sentry tech tower inside the base.The Sentry Tech towers are basically remote weapons stations, stuck on top of silos. As suspected hostile targets are detected and within range of Sentry-Tech positions, the weapons are slewing toward the designated target. Multiple stations can be operated by a single operator, one or more units can be used to engage the target, following identification and verification .

This system is designed to create 1500-meter deep "automated kill zones" .

Each unit mounts a 7.62 or .50 machine gun, shielded from enemy fire and the elements by an environmentally protective bulletproof canopy. In addition to the use of direct fire machine guns, observers can also employ precision guided missiles, such as Spike LR optically guided missiles and Lahat laser guided weapons.

9 -One of these kept in a blast proof hanger.It will form the part of base QRT in case of any attack .Will be activated as soon as alarm goes off.

10 -Main gate security will consist of 2 sub phases to prevent vehicle bound attack.
vehicle checkpoints
PHASE 1
A labyrinth forcing at least 2 sharp changes of direction which have to be taken slowly.
The straight-on route has to be very clearly seen to be impassable, by day or night, with no by-pass.

The route through has to be divided into several lanes, as many as needed to keep the queues down.

Each bay needs an easy way of preventing vehicles from leaving; chain hedge hogs can help here. The exit must also have a gate covered by observation posts and the rapid reaction room.

Each bay should be separated by cover from view screens or blast walls, depending on the threat.


Each bay must be observed by a sangar which either covers the bay with armed equipment or at least appears to, as well as the 1 or 2 vehicle checkers per bay.

The VCP should provide secure and comfortable accommodation, rapid reaction guardroom, observation posts.

The normal security systems are needed, depending on the perceived threat, as well as grillage floors.

Steel road bumps discourage high speed.


FOLLOWED BY
PHASE 2
Road Defense Barriers and Gates

Defence-Structures DEAD STOP BARRIERS are designed to resist the impact from moving vehicles, and to stop them in a short distance without the truck or the pay load entering your secure area. They can be built to resist a variety of threats depending on the likely speed of approaching vehicles.
They are designed to stop the truck dead in 2m, and to prevent penetration of the protected area. The 2m is the crushing of the truck, not the barrier.

They can have chains or handrails connecting them to stop motorcycles or shopping trolleys. They should be combined with gates, labyrinths, cover from view screens and other defence structures. Keeping potential bombs as far away as possible from the vital areas is an important factor in force protection.

Such road barriers may be accompanied by softer barriers to make them less lethal.

The barriers may be founded in holes filled with concrete, or can be surface mounted on concrete plinths.

Similar barriers can be built to withstand bigger vehicles at any speed, but it will usually be better to limit approach speeds if possible.

Depending on their positioning they can also be suitable car bomb protection structures.

Defence Structures Embedded Bollards

Embedded bollards are an effective barrier to VBIED's and other high speed vehicle attacks. Such bollards can be installed or retrofitted with Defence Structures doors or gates with the ability to stop and destroy high speed vehicles.

Defence Structures Surface Mount Dragon's Teeth
There is also a need for temporary road barriers, and barriers that do not need to have foundations. In this case the barriers are a battery of DEFENCE-STRUCTURES Dragon's Teeth. These are specially shaped triangular concrete blocks that can be lifted into position using a fork lift truck or crane and linked with chain to block roads or other possible approaches. The kit for these consists of sets of reusable formwork with sets of internal steel work, into which the client can pour concrete, either at a distance or on the final resting site.

Surface mounted Dragon's Teeth are proved to be successful in stopping vehicle borne improvised explosive devices (VBIEDs) and all other types of vehicle attack. The surface mounted Dragon's Teeth can also be fitted with gates raging from personnel doors to large vehicles.


Now base is secured,can you breach it?even if you did ,how much time will you be able to survive inside!

I know it is a little elaborate!but nothing is too much to ensure security of our army bases.

 

[Blood+]

You cannot make anything 100% infiltration proof ,but then you can always make it as much difficult as possible to infiltrate.Securing an army base is very important ,You cannot compare an attack on army base with an attack anywhere else,as army base represent the heart of our security.The hunter should never become the hunted that too at his very own home.

Our army bases are very lack luster in security ; they are sitting duck,it's about time question need to be asked, responsibility to be fixed.

Let me provide a security overview which I think can be deployed for far greater protection of the base..................................................................................................

Now base is secured,can you breach it?even if you did ,how much time will you be able to survive inside!

I know it is a little elaborate!but nothing is too much to ensure security of our army bases.

Yeah,thanx for this post.This is what I try to tell @Ray sir from time to time.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The challenge is to make best what have in hand rather then looking new purchases ..

Low budget and lack of support is major concern ..

 

[Ray]

Yeah,thanx for this post.This is what I try to tell @Ray sir from time to time.

There is difference between infiltration, raid and attack.

Infiltration is a mode that aims at uncontested ingress.

Raid is a form of attack that capitalises on surprise and swift & sudden attack.

Attack is a form of synergised concentration of combat power aimed to capitulate the opposition.

Nothing is failsafe.

As I have mentioned many a time, technology or physical obstacles can always be surmounted and that it is well nigh impossible to man every inch of the LC with boots on the ground.

Bases are not the heart of security as every aspect of the grid is complementary and cannot exist independently.

And what is a Base? Is it a military encampment with troops or areas where a group or single logistic unit is located? What is the acreage being held by such 'bases'? What is the manpower available to guard it? It is obvious that while the 'base' cannot be left unguarded, but more than a 'base', the heart of defeating terrorists is the boots that are required to defeat the terrorists, both at the LC and in the rear area.

Therefore, it is a mix and match and the Threat that warrant the deployment for guarding 'bases' as also ensure that there is adequate boots to locate and eliminate terrorists.

In so far as 'bases' are concerned, it must be understood that the IA is not an 'expeditionary force' nor an 'Occupation Army'. Therefore, we do not use tanks and artillery or anything that is not at the Infantry unit level. Therefore, what could be done by the US, Europeans and Pakistanis to fight terrorists, cannot be done in India.

Our 'bases' are within the civilian area and so anti tank ditches, mines etc is not allowed and remains a theoretical exercise and not feasible in the Indian context.

Blast walls exist, bunkers exist and they are better than the ones shown. They are of blast proof concrete.

There are measures also that prevent unhindered entry of unknown vehicles, which also acts are a preventive measure of any vehicle hurried exiting.

Surveillance cameras are also there including PVN devices.

The man, the men and not the 'machine' that is the key to ensure that there is no raid or attack on a post or a 'base'.

 

[Blood+]

There is difference between infiltration, raid and attack.

Infiltration is a mode that aims at uncontested ingress.

Raid is a form of attack that capitalises on surprise and swift & sudden attack.

Attack is a form of synergised concentration of combat power aimed to capitulate the opposition.

Nothing is failsafe.

As I have mentioned many a time, technology or physical obstacles can always be surmounted and that it is well nigh impossible to man every inch of the LC with boots on the ground.

Bases are not the heart of security as every aspect of the grid is complementary and cannot exist independently.

And what is a Base? Is it a military encampment with troops or areas where a group or single logistic unit is located? What is the acreage being held by such 'bases'? What is the manpower available to guard it? It is obvious that while the 'base' cannot be left unguarded, but more than a 'base', the heart of defeating terrorists is the boots that are required to defeat the terrorists, both at the LC and in the rear area.

Therefore, it is a mix and match and the Threat that warrant the deployment for guarding 'bases' as also ensure that there is adequate boots to locate and eliminate terrorists.

In so far as 'bases' are concerned, it must be understood that the IA is not an 'expeditionary force' nor an 'Occupation Army'. Therefore, we do not use tanks and artillery or anything that is not at the Infantry unit level. Therefore, what could be done by the US, Europeans and Pakistanis to fight terrorists, cannot be done in India.

Our 'bases' are within the civilian area and so anti tank ditches, mines etc is not allowed and remains a theoretical exercise and not feasible in the Indian context.

Blast walls exist, bunkers exist and they are better than the ones shown. They are of blast proof concrete.

There are measures also that prevent unhindered entry of unknown vehicles, which also acts are a preventive measure of any vehicle hurried exiting.

Surveillance cameras are also there including PVN devices.

The man, the men and not the 'machine' that is the key to ensure that there is no raid or attack on a post or a 'base'.

Please do not get angry sir,I was in no way trying to disrespect you or disprove your experience on this subject.It was just that I got a bit upset that so many men had to die.
By the way,it seems like in this particular case,the terrorists didn't enter through the front gates as previously reported,rather they had cut the razor wire fences around the base with pliers.

 

[Ray]

Please do not get angry sir,I was in no way trying to disrespect you or disprove your experience on this subject.It was just that I got a bit upset that so many men had to die.
By the way,it seems like in this particular case,the terrorists didn't enter through the front gates as previously reported,rather they had cut the razor wire fences around the base with pliers.

I do not get angry since getting angry is an indicator of having failed to put a point across.

It is unfortunate that men die, but there are good reasons why it happens.

Rarely will a person who has evil intention walk in from the Front Gate since that will surely be manned.

Since 'bases' are practically within civilian areas, they can be easily reconnoitred and gaps in the defensive plan can be detected.

As I said alertness is paramount.

If you are not alert, vigilant and do not patrol, then you will be up a gum tree.

I am not aware of the details of the instant case, and so I cannot comment.

I am sure you all mean well and why won't you? It is after all, your country as much as it is my country and you have good reasons to feel sad, as also be indignant.

However, theoretical analysis belies reality of the circumstances & the environment in which one operates in these areas.

Unlike other nations, we are not an Occupation Army and we do not use weaponry that is above the Infantry unit level and that too, not even ATGMs or Mortars, which are Infantry weapons.