Armored Personnel Carriers & Infantry Fighting Vehicles

[p2prada]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

Recent coflicts proved that lightly armored IFV's are problematic, they can't efficently support tanks, neither are safe for infantry they are carring, so there is shift from lighter, mostly amphibious IFV's to the heavier, more survivable ones, but without amphibious capabilities.

So IMHO more and more countries will choose two approaches, or complete withdrawal from old soviet philosophy of IFV, or use of both lighter and heavier ones (perhaps modular designs?).

I don't know how weapons are used, maybe there is place for both types, light and heavy. In terms of finances and tactical relevance.

It would be nice to have something like the GCV system. Get a simpler 25ton IFV and add another 10-20 tons of modular armour over it depending on the situation. For a conventional war, maybe a 25 ton IFV is superior to the 50 ton version while urban fighting would require a heavier version.

Even in India's case, if we manage to secure air fields in the Chinese side, we may be able to airlift a large number of light IFVs into Tibet, add modular armour on the field and send it to battle against the Chinese heavy tanks.

It is actually very smart move from the Ukrainians side, to make a wide proposal for many customers.

Yeah. The options for the T-90 also seems to be good. I don't know what electronics were offered, but thinking about a 6TD-2/3 engine on the tank along with their ERA options is a good deal.

 

[Damian]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

I don't know how weapons are used, maybe there is place for both types, light and heavy. In terms of finances and tactical relevance.

It would be nice to have something like the GCV system. Get a simpler 25ton IFV and add another 10-20 tons of modular armour over it depending on the situation. For a conventional war, maybe a 25 ton IFV is superior to the 50 ton version while urban fighting would require a heavier version.

Even in India's case, if we manage to secure air fields in the Chinese side, we may be able to airlift a large number of light IFVs into Tibet, add modular armour on the field and send it to battle against the Chinese heavy tanks.

Lighter platforms have however one very important problem, there is question if at some weight, their basic structure could handle additional weight of addon armor, so even if on paper modular armor concept looks good, there are still issues that need to be solved.

IMHO the best option is such.

Heavy Armor/Mechanized Brigades/Divisions should be composed of heavy MBT's and IFV's and other vehicles, and if possible with as much common components as possible. Heavy IFV basic weight can be in the 40-50 tons limit with possibility to install more armor, other vehicles like MBT's, heavy APC's (APC can be just IFV without a turret with automatic cannon but with RWS armed with machine gun, other such smaller calliber weapons and intended for support roles) also should be capable to have addon armor installed if needed.

And as Kunal made a very good point, all of these heavy platforms should have ability to use snorkel for river crossing.

Medium Motorized Brigades/Divisions equiped with the family of lighter wheeled platforms with amphibious capabilities.

This gives better flexibility and more options, the only question is the ratio between heavy and medium forces, that should be affordable from logistics and economic point of view.

Yeah. The options for the T-90 also seems to be good. I don't know what electronics were offered, but thinking about a 6TD-2/3 engine on the tank along with their ERA options is a good deal.

AFAIK Ukrainians can be more flexible when it comes to electronics and just allow to integrate your own systems with their systems or to use non Ukrainian products.

 

[Akim]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

I don't know how weapons are used, maybe there is place for both types, light and heavy. In terms of finances and tactical relevance.

Structurally in a tank brigade from the lungs IFV nobody will appear. Simply, in a tank brigade reform the mechanized battalion ( 3 companies of heavy IFV, one the lungs with the new module). Her task is a protection of auxiliary subdivisions of brigade, forcing of the rivers, mobile transfer of backlogs et cetera)

 

[p2prada]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

Heavy Armor/Mechanized Brigades/Divisions should be composed of heavy MBT's and IFV's and other vehicles, and if possible with as much common components as possible. Heavy IFV basic weight can be in the 40-50 tons limit with possibility to install more armor, other vehicles like MBT's, heavy APC's (APC can be just IFV without a turret with automatic cannon but with RWS armed with machine gun, other such smaller calliber weapons and intended for support roles) also should be capable to have addon armor installed if needed.

We have a $10 Billion IFV program and it goes something like this;
Broadsword: The Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV): Private sector awaits MoD decision on Rs 50,000 crore contract
The FICV will be a 22-24 tonne vehicle with the strike power of a 45 tonne main battle tank (MBT)," predicts Brigadier (Retd) Khutab Hai, who heads the defence business of the Mahindra Group.

I guess this really depends on the doctrine of the armed forces in question.

Medium Motorized Brigades/Divisions equiped with the family of lighter wheeled platforms with amphibious capabilities.

This is interesting to note;

The army's insistence on an amphibious FICV constitutes a key design challenge. The generals believe an ability to quickly swim across rivers would be a battle-winning ability in the riverine Punjab plains. The BMP-2, its current ICV, is fully amphibious. But not since the Soviet Union days has any army inducted a fully amphibious ICV.


With this one can assume there could be amphibious capability because of the large number of water bodies in the theatre.

So, a similar American force with 50 ton IFVs in the region would mean they would get bogged down continuously in trying to cross such locations.

Perspectives: Update: More Images-IA Canal Crossing Operations
It would seem IA would be very happy if T-90s could swim.

Structurally in a tank brigade from the lungs IFV nobody will appear. Simply, in a tank brigade reform the mechanized battalion ( 3 companies of heavy IFV, one the lungs with the new module). Her task is a protection of auxiliary subdivisions of brigade, forcing of the rivers, mobile transfer of backlogs et cetera)

Can you explain a bit more on the forcing of rivers and mobile transfer of backlogs?

 

[Damian]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

With this one can assume there could be amphibious capability because of the large number of water bodies in the theatre.

So, a similar American force with 50 ton IFVs in the region would mean they would get bogged down continuously in trying to cross such locations.

Not exactly, American forces have based on M1 series chassis two ABV's, one is M104 Wolverine and second is JAB, also there are some other river crossing systems there.

Besides this, lightly armored IFV will not be really capable to attack enemy positions, especially without tank support, and tanks still need brigdes or to ford rivers using snorkels, I do not see a reason why heavy IFV should not do the same, as tanks.

 

[Akim]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

Can you explain a bit more on the forcing of rivers and mobile transfer of backlogs?

Adjusting of ferriages, for tanks, possibly only with control of place of arms on other bank. Can accomplish such capture only lignt IFV, after the shots of aviation and artillery. Fire power of the modern battle modules, which are set on BMP- 1(2), allow them to contest even with helicopters + yet mortar platoon. And transfer of backlogs is simply. This company spreads on any area for strengthening of offensive or defensive.
P.S. I tell application of facilities you brigades after reformation. While the similar systems pass development and tests only.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

Not exactly, American forces have based on M1 series chassis two ABV's, one is M104 Wolverine and second is JAB, also there are some other river crossing systems there.

Besides this, lightly armored IFV will not be really capable to attack enemy positions, especially without tank support, and tanks still need brigdes or to ford rivers using snorkels, I do not see a reason why heavy IFV should not do the same, as tanks.

Yeah. Tanks will be expected to accompany the IFVs either way.

Consider you have two bridges and lots of tanks and IFVs. Maybe our Generals think it would be quicker if our tanks use the bridges while the IFVs swim across thereby saving time instead of trying to squeeze both types on the same bridges.

Bridges can carry a set amount of vehicles and are large targets, vehicles in water bodies don't have a minimum or maximum number and can be more distributed. Other than that amphibious IFVs may have the extra tactical advantage of arriving at a shore of their choosing depending on tactical requirements.

Maybe if all tanks and IFVs are grouped together like in the case of the US tanks and heavy IFVs the enemy air forces will see and engage such a massed formation easily. The Americans won't have to worry about such an attack since they perpetually operate in air superiority conditions while others may not be so lucky.

These are just my opinions though. Maybe they are valid or simply uninformed guesses, but battlefields are fluid and any advantage is an advantage.

 

[Damian]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

Yeah. Tanks will be expected to accompany the IFVs either way.

Consider you have two bridges and lots of tanks and IFVs. Maybe our Generals think it would be quicker if our tanks use the bridges while the IFVs swim across thereby saving time instead of trying to squeeze both types on the same bridges.

Bridges can carry a set amount of vehicles and are large targets, vehicles in water bodies don't have a minimum or maximum number and can be more distributed. Other than that amphibious IFVs may have the extra tactical advantage of arriving at a shore of their choosing depending on tactical requirements.

Maybe if all tanks and IFVs are grouped together like in the case of the US tanks and heavy IFVs the enemy air forces will see and engage such a massed formation easily. The Americans won't have to worry about such an attack since they perpetually operate in air superiority conditions while others may not be so lucky.

These are just my opinions though. Maybe they are valid or simply uninformed guesses, but battlefields are fluid and any advantage is an advantage.

It might just depends on capabilities of whole armed forces... what Americans can do, is not nececary thing affordable for other nations, simple yet valid explanation IMHO.

 

[Akim]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

Tactic/pl of the European countries NATO, built at one time on a defensive. Tactic/pl of countries of the Warsaw agreement on an offensive. Hence and distinctions in perception of technique and armaments. Only country in the West, which was able to conduct a manoeuvre fight - is FRG. But in course of time and she it forgot.

 

[p2prada]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

Only country in the West, which was able to conduct a manoeuvre fight - is FRG. But in course of time and she it forgot.

You mean France?

That's interesting.

 

[Akim]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

You mean France?

That's interesting.

FRG - Federal Republic of Germany

 

[p2prada]

Re: Ukraine invites India to modernize T-90S Tanks

FRG - Federal Republic of Germany

Much more interesting, especially considering their vast number of Leo 2s.

 

[Akim]

It is better to move all our posts in
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/41088-has-tank-become-obsolete-modern-warfare-14.html

 

[Akim]

APC "Didgori-2"

Didgori-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Never understand the paint scheme of GAF Armored vehicles..

 

[bhramos]

BMP-1 Sheridan

An M551 Sheridan made up to look like an enemy BMP-1 Armored Personnel

 

[W.G.Ewald]

^^
Opposing force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New 11th ACR/OPFOR Vehicle Arrives at the NTC

http://www.eaglehorse.org/4_ftx_gunnery/equipment/m551_sheridan/sheridan8.htm

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BMP-3 fording River..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BMP-1 Sheridan

 

[Damian]

I heard rumors that recent purchase of fully capable tanks from Ukraine (T-54/55's, T-62's, T-72's, T-80's and perhaps T-64's) was to improve training and replace with them most of the VISMODs.