Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Patriot_]

I often wonder about how these tank evaluation are carried out. Just going by what they look like on paper is surely not the way. I am sure Indian Army has evolved a really extensive procedure for it. Apart from regular field trials does it involve any kind of destructive testing? i.e. a functional tank actually being tested against all kind of shells/missiles to discover there weaknesses. Not just its own fire power that it can deliver but the fire power it can withstand, the number of hits it can take?

Just yesterday I was going through you tube watching videos regarding several T 72 tanks of Syrian army being blown off by simple RPG fire used by Syrian rebels. Even the ERA provided little protection to the tank crew and could not save these tanks for even a single shot from these RPGs. In some cases the turrets simply blew off or the tank's inside ammunition caught fire instantaneously (link to some of the videos provided below).

My heart shivered at thought of the fact that these tanks constitute a majority of Indian Army's armory. What use they are of if they are so vulnerable to such small arms as RPGs. This to me is a serious flaw. I wonder what kind of evaluation process would have been carried out before buying such tanks and whether these vulnerabilities have been addressed while adopting them for Indian conditions. It is difficult to say how a tank or any weapon would perform in actual war until it really faces the music, but a fair assessment in situation as close as war must be possible.
I always believed that Russian equipment has been over hyped and wonder whether the subsequent T90s (also our own Arjun) are as vulnerable. Has It got something to do with quality of Russian tanks? remember Iraqi Army's Russian built tanks did not do well against US Abrams, even though Abrams were superior. So before jumping to any conclusions about Armata's suitability for Indian Army, I would like the experts to throw some light on the procedures and extent of trials/evaluation that is carried out before selection of a tank.

 

[Rowdy]

I often wonder about how these tank evaluation are carried out. Just going by what they look like on paper is surely not the way. I am sure Indian Army has evolved a really extensive procedure for it. Apart from regular field trials does it involve any kind of destructive testing? i.e. a functional tank actually being tested against all kind of shells/missiles to discover there weaknesses. Not just its own fire power that it can deliver but the fire power it can withstand, the number of hits it can take?

Just yesterday I was going through you tube watching videos regarding several T 72 tanks of Syrian army being blown off by simple RPG fire used by Syrian rebels. Even the ERA provided little protection to the tank crew and could not save these tanks for even a single shot from these RPGs. In some cases the turrets simply blew off or the tank's inside ammunition caught fire instantaneously (link to some of the videos provided below).

My heart shivered at thought of the fact that these tanks constitute a majority of Indian Army's armory. What use they are of if they are so vulnerable to such small arms as RPGs. This to me is a serious flaw. I wonder what kind of evaluation process would have been carried out before buying such tanks and whether these vulnerabilities have been addressed while adopting them for Indian conditions. It is difficult to say how a tank or any weapon would perform in actual war until it really faces the music, but a fair assessment in situation as close as war must be possible.
I always believed that Russian equipment has been over hyped and wonder whether the subsequent T90s (also our own Arjun) are as vulnerable. Has It got something to do with quality of Russian tanks? remember Iraqi Army's Russian built tanks did not do well against US Abrams, even though Abrams were superior. So before jumping to any conclusions about Armata's suitability for Indian Army, I would like the experts to throw some light on the procedures and extent of trials/evaluation that is carried out before selection of a tank.

Relax, this news is just spun by sputnik to hype the tank. FMBT is the way to go ... no more tank buys

 

[Patriot_]

Yes I understand that, but in any case my query was related to the vulnerability of T72 tanks to RPG fire. May be this is not the appropriate thread, but i don't know of any other thread about this topic. How are these vulnerabilities addressed and are there any kind of actual destructive tests (like I said a functional tank taking a hit) undertaken while carrying out field trials, even in case of domestic Arjun/FMBT?

 

[Shaitan]

Not going to happen. You can bet on the FMBT program going to be in the, "make", category.

Russia will lose both the BMP2 and T90 replacement.

Especially after the whole ToT problems India faced with the T90, you'd be stupid to go that route again.

 

[Vlaad]

@Patriot_
Those pictures are in Syria, tanks are of Russian export but here's the catch: that is RPG-29 designed in 88' unlike the tank that's on receiving end and is made for nastier beasties than t-72... RPG-29 has many other beasts under its belt: Merkava, Abrams, Challenger 2 just to name a few. Side hit, from that vintage point is pretty much nightmare of every tanker, regardless of tank they are in.

Here's the catch about the ammo cookoff: Additional shells are stored in turret and small size means its rather cramped. Penetration ignites the propellant it explodes and in addition it sets of ammo in autoloader causing secondary explosion. Now, having reserve ammo stowed with crew is a bad idea that western designers elevated by moving it into turret bustle, so the most glaring flaw of otherwise great tank is its ammo capacity. When extra ammo is removed, its actually quite a deadly package for it's price and in its age it was the best.

There are many different opinions about tank design each baesty comes with its flaws and advantages... Here are a few threads that at least for me were good source of info:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/main-battle-tanks-and-armour-technology.208/
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/tank-guns-and-ammunition.39363/

Outside this forum, a very good read from USA experts about soviet armor.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Breaking & Thumkar Exclusive: Indian Army Seeks its Own Armata - Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV)


The newly unveiled Russian Armata tank

The Indian Army plans to design and develop a futuristic combat vehicle called the Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV) to replace the T-72 tanks of the Armored Corp starting 2025-27. [RFI]

This tracked fighting vehicle would feature a modular design that will be leveraged to create a family of combat vehicles.

The FRCV's modular design would be flexible to an extent where it can be configured to operate in varying terrain.

The following variants are planned to be developed on the FRCV platform:

1. Tracked Main Battle Tank - Primary variant.
2. Tracked Light Tank.
3. Wheeled Version.
4. Bridge Layer Tank (BLT).
5. Trawl Tank and Mine Ploughs.
6. Armored Recovery Vehicle (ARV).
7. Self Propelled Artillery Gun/Howitzer.
8. Air Defense Gun/Msl System.
9. Artillery Observation Post Vehicle.
10. Engineer Reconnaissance Vehicle.
11. Armored Ambulance.
12. FRCV Development Process

The FRCV has been conceived as a Design and Development project, to be executed in three stages as under:

1. Design Stage.
2. Prototype Development Stage.
3. Production Stage.

The FRCV would be required to conduct sustained continuous operations by day and night in all weather conditions in terrain and temperature ranges obtaining on India’s Western borders.

The FRCV should be in the `Medium Tank’ category whose physical dimensions should facilitate transportability over existing terrain, in-service military bridges and major civilian infrastructure (including bridges) in the border areas (on either side of the Western border).

Crew

The number of crew members should be such that they can perform their
designated tasks, and operate all on-board systems without hindrance and without any overlapping of duties/ responsibilities.

Fire Power

Should be well matched to contemporary MBTs in engagement ranges, all weather day/night fighting capability, depth of penetration and variety of ammunition.
Should have very high accuracy [High FRHP (First Round Hit Probability)] and very high lethality [High SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability)], at par with contemporary MBTs.

Protection.

Should provide very high all-round protection, including ballistic, active and any other form of anti-armor technologies, to ensure survivability in the contemporary and future battlefield.
Should incorporate signature reduction technologies.
High response evasion/ anti-detection system.

Mobility

Should have adequately high power-to-weight ratio to enable all on-board systems to be run simultaneously, without disrupting the agility and mobility of the vehicle.
Should have high operating range, comparable to contemporary MBTs

Indian army wants their own armata

Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Breaking & Thumkar Exclusive: Indian Army Seeks its Own Armata - Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV)

 

[Ind4Ever]

Better we choose Armata Tank for light tank category and develop Arjun MBT 2 and form heavy tank category ?


Surprised !!!! I never thought this could be so soon to become reality .

Amazing addition to our current fire power .

But the question is we know how Russians played us in T90 tot and whole drama created by them . So will the Russians come with real intent to share Armata technology ?

Chinese are waiting for this tank to reach the R&D . Anyways we don't have any other options but to get hold this tank. HAS CHINESE WILL MASS PRODUCE THEM IN NUMBERS

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Apart from humor, Arjun is design as per Indian conditions and does not suffer same fate of T-90 which is being extensively upgraded with DRDO`s Arjun technology inputs, This fancy tank will only end up in lines of T-55/72/90 ..

 

[migflug]

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf
Is the thread on new rfi of army for future ready combact vehicles created? Please someone create a thread if not posted. I am unable to do so

 

[Ind4Ever]

Thanks for merger . And Is It possible to highlight new/recent thread posted in sperate tab other than recent replies ? As anyone will reply in any older thread.

 

[pmaitra]

Thanks for merger . And Is It possible to highlight new/recent thread posted in sperate tab other than recent replies ? As anyone will reply in any older thread.

Let's not have multiple threads on the same subject.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Let's not have multiple threads on the same subject.

Problem is its hard to find recent threads.

 

[pmaitra]

Problem is its hard to find recent threads.

Bro, you can always bookmark it.

 

[Ind4Ever]

Bro, you can always bookmark it.

Thanks Bro. .. But let me let you what I see in interface . Forum > in that many Master topics > below Recent reply > top thread etc . So I have to check each and every Master topic for latest news ... Do consider the baki forum interface .Which is very easy to get latest updates. People like most of the time check the new topics and jump into interesting one .

Just adding small scroll tab for Most recent post would help people like me and will indeed get more traffic from offline stalker

 

[pmaitra]

http://indianarmy.nic.in/writereaddata/RFI/445/FRCV RFI.pdf
Is the thread on new rfi of army for future ready combact vehicles created? Please someone create a thread if not posted. I am unable to do so

I went through the requirements, and I would have expected the Director General of Mechanized Forces to be less vague and more objective.

Some of the things written in this document have the potential of raking up a dispute in the future. Let me list them out. I will simply point out the points of the Brief description of the FRCV:

• (7). The maximum operating temperature of the tank should have been mentioned.
• (8). The term "compact" should have been quantified in cubic centimeters, or LxBxH.
• (9.a). The in-service bridges on Indian side of the border should have been properly defined as per axle load, pressure, and width specifications, and if possible, for those across the border as well.
• (9.b.) What crew size is desired? Do the design bureaux have the liberty to decide the crew size? In that case, they might also have the liberty to decide whether they will go for the crew-less turret.
• (9.c.ii) A quantified number for FRHP should have been specified, which can be obtained from contemporary MBTs. Also, the size of the gun (120 mm, 125 mm) should have been specified.
• (9.e.i) A power-to-weight ratio should have been quantified.
• (9.e.ii) The operating range should have been quantified.

I understand that this is a very initial stage, but there are quite a few points where not enough homework was done to keep the guess work out. I think the MoD should look into this, and reduce the amount of sloppiness involved in such important documents. Scientists don't work on gut feelings. They need hard numbers. Hard numbers are also necessary to avoid future mud-slinging and finger-pointing.

It is quite obvious that the DGMF et al., are looking at the Armata family, although they are not stating it openly. That is why, they want a modular platform with several variations thereof, just like the Armata family.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

On 08-June-2015, Indian Army has issued Request for Information (RFI) from Vendors for design of Future Universal Combat Platform upon which new Main Battle tank will be developed to replace existing Soviet-era T-72 Main battle tanks in the Armoured Corps which will enter service in Indian Army by 2025-27.

“Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV)” under which RFI has been issued requested Design Bureaus from India and Abroad to submit their Design information by 31-July-2015.

Director General Mechanised Forces (DGMF) of Indian Army which has issued RFI tender and idrw.org has gone through the tender documents Under which an “FRCV” a Universal Combat Platform will be developed upon which Indian Army plans to develop array of Armoured combat vehicles which will serve Indian Army post-2025.

Indian Army plans to use FRCV platform to develop Tracked Main Battle Tank which will be Primary variant and will be followed up with ” Tracked Light Tank “, “Wheeled Version “, ” Bridge Layer Tank (BLT) “, “Trawl Tank and Mine Ploughs”, “Armoured Recovery Vehicle”, “Self-propelled gun (SPG)” , ” anti-aircraft tank” , “Artillery Observation Vehicle.” Engineer Reconnaissance Vehicle, ” Armoured ambulance “.

FRCV will be executed in Three stages 1) Design 2) Prototype Developmental stage 3 ) Production stage. Tender asked for radical new design which will cater “future” battlefield environment and technological possibilities which will address the future battlefield scenario of Indian Army.

Army wants FRCV to be developed on a modular concept with a high degree of flexibility in a manner that as a tank platform, it can address the varying requirements of different terrain configurations.

Salient features of FRCV asked for in tender documents are

Dimensions: Army wants FRCV to be in ” Medium Tank ” Category. Which will allow the new platform to be used on existing infrastructure and terrain of Indian western border and will be easy to transport.

Crew: The number of crew members should be such that they can perform their designated tasks, and operate all onboard systems without hindrance and without any overlapping of duties/ responsibilities.

Fire Power: Should be well matched to contemporary MBTs in engagement ranges, all-weather day/night fighting capability, depth of penetration and variety of ammunition. Should have very high accuracy [High FRHP (First Round Hit Probability)] and very high lethality [High SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability)], at par with contemporary MBTs.

Protection: Should provide very high all-around protection, including ballistic, active and any other form of anti-armor technologies, to ensure survivability in the contemporary and future battlefield.
Should incorporate signature reduction technologies.
High response evasion/ anti-detection system.

Mobility: Should have an adequately high power-to-weight ratio to enable all onboard systems to be run simultaneously, without disrupting the agility and mobility of the vehicle. Should have high operating range, comparable to contemporary MBTs.

http://idrw.org/indian-army-issues-rfi-for-new-main-battle-tank-design/

 

[charlie]

I often wonder about how these tank evaluation are carried out. Just going by what they look like on paper is surely not the way. I am sure Indian Army has evolved a really extensive procedure for it. Apart from regular field trials does it involve any kind of destructive testing? i.e. a functional tank actually being tested against all kind of shells/missiles to discover there weaknesses. Not just its own fire power that it can deliver but the fire power it can withstand, the number of hits it can take?

Just yesterday I was going through you tube watching videos regarding several T 72 tanks of Syrian army being blown off by simple RPG fire used by Syrian rebels. Even the ERA provided little protection to the tank crew and could not save these tanks for even a single shot from these RPGs. In some cases the turrets simply blew off or the tank's inside ammunition caught fire instantaneously (link to some of the videos provided below).

My heart shivered at thought of the fact that these tanks constitute a majority of Indian Army's armory. What use they are of if they are so vulnerable to such small arms as RPGs. This to me is a serious flaw. I wonder what kind of evaluation process would have been carried out before buying such tanks and whether these vulnerabilities have been addressed while adopting them for Indian conditions. It is difficult to say how a tank or any weapon would perform in actual war until it really faces the music, but a fair assessment in situation as close as war must be possible.
I always believed that Russian equipment has been over hyped and wonder whether the subsequent T90s (also our own Arjun) are as vulnerable. Has It got something to do with quality of Russian tanks? remember Iraqi Army's Russian built tanks did not do well against US Abrams, even though Abrams were superior. So before jumping to any conclusions about Armata's suitability for Indian Army, I would like the experts to throw some light on the procedures and extent of trials/evaluation that is carried out before selection of a tank.

Actually T72 is really old tank and RPG 29 is really a lethal weapon,

you cannot compare US abrams with T72, looks at the time where T72 was introduced and when Abrams were introduce.




Syrian army is really happy with their T72 and it saved a lot of life then you see in few videos where the anti tank was able to penetrate the tank, here is an interview by syrian commander.

I cannot find a video where subtitle were better but this was the only video i can find in english


if you put Israeli tank crew in T72 and put syrian tank crew in Abrams still there are good chances that the T72 would win, crew training matters alot.

 

[Zebra]

Apart from humor, Arjun is design as per Indian conditions and does not suffer same fate of T-90 which is being extensively upgraded with DRDO`s Arjun technology inputs, This fancy tank will only end up in lines of T-55/72/90 ..

"Kitna Deti Hai - Tank" ...........

 

[pmaitra]

Russia has been struggling with their sighting system, and this has carried over to the T-14 Armata as well. One can refer to this post for the details.

The problem has been with the performance of the thermal sighting system of several Russian tanks, starting from the T-72, to T-90, and now, the T-14 Armata.

The following excerpts from a report shows how the Indian T-90s required upgrade.

The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.

The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks’ existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Thanks for moving these post, It suits better here ..